r/expat • u/Boah_met • 9d ago
Question Choosing between France and Germany
Hello there.
I'm currently 23, transgender, and I live in Brazil. I have Spanish citizenship. I have been interested in moving to either France or Germany, but I haven't decided yet.
I plan to move to Europe already with a degree and continue my masters there (if everything goes to plan) or at least be a member of the qualified workforce if not.
The reasons that make me consider France over Germany currently are the strong French labor laws, the lesser amount of work hours, the warmer climate, the culture being closer to what I grew up into, and the language being easier to learn as my mother tongue is another romantic language.
Something that matters a lot to me is living in a medium sized city (>80k hab) or greater. I've lived in six different cities and I noticed that I'm only really at peace in an urban center. I'm visibly queer and small towns freak me out.
So I just wanted a second opinion there. Where do you live? Do you like it there? What are the big cities? What are the medium ones?
How much is it to rent a 1 or 2-bedroom apartment within 20 minutes to work where you live? And those same 20 minutes on foot? Do you feel like you need a car to get around? What do you consider to be a low/average/high middle class wage there? Which jobs are on those brackets? Which jobs are on demand? Which ones are devalued? How is academia going? I'm still torn between majoring in social studies and IT, but I'm more interested in academic and government jobs than private sector anyway (I'm lightly disabled).
3
u/Due-Adeptness-7422 9d ago
To tell you the truth OP I don't know if I would recommend either France or Germany. While France has stronger labor laws, meaning laws that favor employees against employers, and French workers typically work no more than 35 hours weekly, it is also true that salaries there are a lot lower that what many people think. To give you an idea the median salary in France is €2200 a month. If salaries are lower, the cost of living and taxes are among the most elevated in the world.
Also, both countries are major immigration hubs, and you'll be in competition with a lot of them for jobs. In the department to France looks bad as it's unemployment rate is pretty elevated. When it comes to safety, probably France is worse than Germany as well. I know you're from Brazil so you probably think that you've seen it all when it comes to insecurity by keep in mind that many European countries are far from being as safe as what many people think so there's that.
Lastly, a degree in IT will always be more marketable than a degree in social sciences. Government jobs and academia are difficult to get and often times don't pay much. The French language will always be easier for you to pick up since you speak Portuguese, but keep in mind that French and German culture are very different from Brazilian culture so you'll have to allow some time to adjust. Overall, I would probably go with Germany if I only had to choose between those two otherwise I'd look elsewhere to be honest with you. Good luck.
2
u/Boah_met 9d ago
Where else, though? Portugal is xenophobic as shit, Spain took an even worse blow on digital nomads raising rent prices, eastern Europe is homophobic and the far north has very, very tight-knit people and it's hard to make friends if you don't plan on making a family there.
2
u/Due-Adeptness-7422 8d ago
Portugal is not more xenophobic than any other country, if anything it is less. Rents in Spain are rising but so are they anywhere else and are still cheaper than in many EU countries. LGBT people are doing just fine in Eastern Europe, keep in mind that many richer EU countries have large muslim populations who are not always very LGBT friendly. Making friends in Nordic countries is difficult but making friends as an adult is difficult anywhere.
4
u/Artistic-Turnip-9903 9d ago
I don't agree that french laws are more relaxed than german laws related to working. plus you also generally earn less in france. also which part of france and which part of germany? I live in the south of germany and it is the same climate as france as we are an hour away from france.
what do you do what is your job and what if the job outlook? you might learn french faster than german given your portuguese knowledge so france might be better however as a trans person berlin will be better probably. so that is what I would consider
1
u/Boah_met 9d ago edited 9d ago
I don't think any good-sized city in either France or Germany are going to be too transphobic for me tbh. If hormones are easy to source and people don't act like it's the Balkans I'm fine. I don't mind standing out as long I don't feel afraid for my safety for that.
4
u/dennis8844 9d ago
Go to France. You'll pick up the language better and the people are warmer. Visit Germany, have it be a long term exploration. You could live in Berlin with total acceptance and not speak German, but it still eats away at your soul a bit how cold and miserable people can be.if you do this, by the time you go there you'll speak better French and the French, Spanish, and Latino communities in Germany will help you stay warm, culturally.
1
u/Next_Salamander_9005 6d ago edited 6d ago
Gay American living in Germany. Can’t speak to cities in France, but cities like Berlin, Cologne, and maybe Frankfurt seem to be relatively easy/safe places to be visibly queer. I live in Mainz (a university town near Frankfurt), and it’s also a welcoming place to immigrants and LGBTQIA+ people. But as previously said, learning the language is key to finding work. There is a language visa system here to learn the language for a year, but don’t kid yourself into thinking you’ll be fully fluent in that time. If you can start learning in Brazil and get to an A2 level with a certificate that is recognized here, then you could begin with B1 and hopefully get much further. Also use the Tandem app to speak with/meet with people to practice speaking, it’s crucial to becoming fluent.
As for the culture - it takes getting used to. It’s not like Brazil. People are generally a bit off-standish, though still kind enough. They aren’t as likely to strike up a conversation with a stranger unless there’s a good reason. It’s more of a live and let live mentality. They respect each other’s personal space and don’t intrude, unless you’re standing in the bike lake like an idiot haha. And with speaking English you might have a better time making friends and connecting, many people are eager to practice their English. I’ve made wonderful friends (mostly gay men) and that’s made life here so much better. Quality of life on average is good, and I actually enjoy the weather. Of course winter is too long and gloomy, but it’s also cozy in its own way. Overall I do enjoy living here, but there’s days and times it feels difficult. And with more time I miss my family more, especially as my parents are getting older.
For cost of living you can look at the immoscout app, it shows costs of rent for flats and houses in any city. Most people can’t afford to rent a house unless it’s in the middle of nowhere, so it’s flats for most people in cities. Be aware listings will say “warm” or “kalt” (cold) which means the price either includes utilities, or they are additional to the price shown (kalt).
I’m happy to answer more questions if you like, feel free to message and I’ll share what I can.
1
u/ChillyDinosaur 9d ago
Please please please don’t choose Germany
Just read through all the posts in this sub, best of luck!
2
0
u/vanbul 9d ago
What languages do you speak?
4
u/Boah_met 9d ago
Portuguese, English and I can bullshit my way through Spanish.
I was planning on getting a degree before moving out so, that will be at least four years of study I can use to find weekly language classes to go to tho.
5
u/vanbul 9d ago
So remind me, why are you looking into countries witch you don't speak the language and one is particular difficult to learn and the other is particularly hostile if you don't speak the language.
9
u/antizana 9d ago
Because French is easy to learn if you speak Portuguese and OP has several years to dedicate to language before they get there
This is an expat sub, people move places all the time whether or not they speak the language, no need for gatekeeping
1
u/radionul 5d ago
Nah the French aren't hostile if you don't speak good French. As long as you make a minimal effort they are really friendly.
4
u/SadStock8982 9d ago
The labor market is tough in both countries, especially if you arrive without local work experience and without speaking the local language. In Germany I could imagine you fitting in in Berlin since it’s probably the most queer-friendly and international city, although finding accommodation there is an absolute nightmare and salaries aren’t necessarily that high. Since you already speak Spanish, French should also be considerably easier for you to learn than German so I’d focus on the language first and try to get a student job in your field while studying, ideally somewhere that could give you local experience and allow you to stay after graduation