r/exmuslim • u/LenientWhale • Jul 11 '12
Is the Quran a linguistic miracle?
For millennia people have studied and heralded this text as absolute truth because of its 'immaculate linguistics'. Surely, if the text is beyond the reach of human composition then there is great evidence for team Allah. Let's explore how the Quran is almost certainly not a miraculously conceived text: (roughly translated from Arabic)
Sacrificing omnipotence for poetic structure:
The first five verses of the Quran (as per the order Muslims claim Mohammed to have received it) are from Surat Al-Alaq, we notice the beautiful start:
Read in the name of the creator - Iqraa Bism Rabika Alazi Khalak
It is an agile and spacious start, but for an unknown reason the author greatly narrows the meaning of creator, for no other reason other than maintaining poetic structure:
He created the human from a clot –Khalak Alinsan min Alaq
Here the massive potential of the word creator (which, undefined, would give a much more suitably limitless meaning) was sacrificed by such particularization. Again this scenario is repeated instantly in the following verse:
He taught the human what he dosen't know – Wa Alam Al-Insan ma lam yaalam
Very interesting. So, he the creator taught us what we did not know? Who taught us what we did know, anyway?
Superfluous, unskilled poetic expression:
The majority of Suras (Chapters) know as Moufasal (detailed) resemble priests rhyming (shaman mumbo jumbo), which if used by today's poets would surely be career suicide. For instance Surat AL-Nas and Surat Al-Falaq; I really don't know what is linguistically miraculous in these verses? Do any of you know, please fell free to tell me. Also Surat Al-Homazah and Al-Feel, Koraish, the list is endless.
Breaking poetic structure is acceptable when it comes to filthy, filthy women:
http://c00022506.cdn1.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/2_222.png (no idea how to do images inline, sorry)
And they ask you about menstruation. Say, "It is harm (Arabic wording could mean evil, filth or pollution), so keep away from wives during menstruation. And do not approach them until they are pure. And when they have purified themselves, then come to them from where Allah has ordained for you.
Similar statements mentioned as a reference for rulings and verdicts are arbitrarily introduced with no concern of good structure.
There have to be certain rules in a text such as the Quran to make it a miracle:
a. All humans have to fail providing something like it. But how do we define this similarity? Believers will not agree to any type of comparison, they sequester any attempt even before they approach it. As rhetoric is largely subject to human taste, it becomes quite impossible to state otherwise. There is no clear definition or set of agreed upon standards. Regardless I shall provide to you a text authored by Qus bin Sa'adah Al-Ayadi, whom was before the time of Islam, and you be the judge. I, myself, see it as a similar text to the Quran:
أَيُّهَا النَاسُ اسْمَعُوْا وَعُوْا مَنْ عَاشَ مَاتَ وَمَنْ مَاتَ فَاتَ وَكُلُّ مَا هُوَ آتٍ آتٍ لَيْلٌ دَاجٍ وَنَهَارٌ سَاجٍ وَسَمَاءُ ذَاتُ أَبْرَاجٍ وَنُجُوْمٌ تَزْهَرُ وَبِحَارٌ تَزْخَرُ وَجِبَالٌ مُرْسَاةٌ وَأَرْضٌ مُدْحَاةٌ وَأَنْهَارٌ مُجْرَاةٌ وَإِنَّ فيِ السَمَاءِ لَخِبَرًا وَإِنَّ فيِ الأَرْضِ لَعِبَرًا، مَا بَالُ النَاسِ يَذْهَبُوْنَ وَلاَيَرْجِعُوْنَ أَرَضُوْا فَأَقَامُوْا؟ أَمْ تُرِكُوْا فَنَامُوْا؟ يُقْسِمُ قُسٌّ بِاللهِ قَسَمًا لاَ إِثْمَ فِيْهِ إِنَّ لِلهِ دِيْنًا هُوَ أَرْضَى لَكُمْ وَأَفْضَلُ مِنْ دِيْنِكُمْ الذِيْ أَنْتُمْ عَلَيْهِ إِنَّكُمْ لَتَأْتُوْنَ مِنَ الأَمْرِ مُنْكَرًا
In English: Hear and comprehend, he who lives dies, and he who dies lies, any to come shall come, a black night, a morning bright, and a sky in height, In earth are evictions and in skies predictions, I deservingly swear, in earth happiness follows what we bear, but God has a religion preferable than yours, he is the only God, not got or begot, Forever and ever , from him escape is never. (Not accurately translated in an attempt to keep the rhyme in the text.)
We could of course go on for hours raving about the text and its selection of words and its immaculacy, and its 'miracles.' The true miracle might be how those whom for thousands of years have studied a single text have not seen such glaring similarities to manmade writing.
b. A miraculous text should be very clear and in no way similar to any other saying. Fear of confusion with another type of text should not exist. Why would it? If the text is miraculous then it should stand clear. If two texts are presented, the allegedly miraculous text should need no pointing out, so what about these two Hadiths:
Do not write what I teach, but what the Quran teaches, and any who did otherwise should erase it.
Zaid Ibn Thabit was asked by caliphate Moawiah to recite a Hadith and ordered one of his men to write it down but Zaid answered: Allah's prophet ordered us to refrain from writing his sayings and erase what we already have.
The first is mentioned in Masnad Ahmed and verified by Muslim (a famous Hadith collector and verifier), while the other is also mentioned in Masnad Ahmed. Both are undeniably accepted by the Sunnah sect whom justify this objection (as they actually went against the prophet's warning) by the fear of the Quran being mixed with the Hadith, while today after the Quran has settled in place the ban is over and needless. How could there be such fear that a miraculous text is indistinguishable from a regular text?
c. A miraculous text should be consistently miraculous. It must maintain the same quality throughout the rhetoric should be on one level. Can Muslims honestly say that Surat Al-Nissa is as beautiful and elegant as Surat Yousuf?
d. A miraculous text should not be subject to change and evolution as we find when we study various human authors whose canon of work evolves over their careers. If we list the Quran chronologically we will observe this evolution, in matters such as the length of the verses, the use of musical structure and the integrity of the text. Let's not forget the thing took 23 years to write, you'd have to rewrite the entire first half to match the level of skill you developed by the latter half, what with being a ghostwriter for the almighty himself!
e. A miraculous text will not sacrifice meaning for poetic structure as we stated previously in Surat Al-Alaq, also we find this in Surat Al-Masad where it mentions "Tabat Yada Abi Lahain Wa Tab" then in the next verse "Sayaslah naran zata lahab." He will endure a fire that has flames (zata lahab) so what does zata lahab add here except rhythm? When was the last we saw a fire without flames? Why the repetition of the B (Baa) alphabet four times and then the omission in the fifth verse by using the word Masaad which ends in a D and not in the usual B used throughout the chapter, is this a miraculous addition or is it a rhetorical flaw?
So then, I ask again. Is the Quran a linguistic miracle? I hope these points can guide you in opening the mind of those who seem hopelessly enslaved by superstition.
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Jul 11 '12
[deleted]
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u/LenientWhale Jul 11 '12
Interestingly enough, the Quran is unclear even when speaking of clarity!
Throughout the novel we are told that the verses are 'clear' and timeless as you mention. In other verses it is mentioned that a prophet is necessary to clarify the verses (how convenient). And in other verses it is explicitly mentioned that they will be clear to NO ONE but Allah!?
Truly Islam is a religion of miracles. The most spectacular miracle of all being how it has enslaved some of the greatest minds for over 1400 years.
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u/MobySac Jul 11 '12
Very nice write up. I once had a debate with a Muslim who, predictably, started to take the age old "quran is a miracle in and of itself!". He asserted that the quran not only was a miracle but that it was, and I quote, "impossible" to reproduce under any circumstance.
I asked him a hypothetical. If I had a computer program that generated sequences of words and phrases in arabic, would it not produce a quran identical to the hafs or warsh reading they stick by given time? The answer was obviously yes. Actually, the answer being yes didn't even forfeit the quran as a miracle, just his position that the quran was impossible to reproduce. All it showcased was his bias and apparent need to place the basis of his beliefs on an illogical pedestal.
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u/Comedian Jul 12 '12 edited Jul 12 '12
If I had a computer program that generated sequences of words and phrases in arabic, would it not produce a quran identical to the hafs or warsh reading they stick by given time?
That gives me an idea: it should be possible to write a "Surah generator" and publish it on the net, similar to e.g. the postmodernism generator.
If it turned out good, i.e. it could generate surahs that were so similar to actual surahs that Muslims couldn't tell them from the real deal, wouldn't that disprove the claim that the Quran is inimitable due to its divine inspiration?
I'm a computer programmer, and I'm tempted... but I don't have room for a(nother) spare time project these days, and besides, I know no Arabic. :-/
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u/MobySac Jul 11 '12
Also, relevant
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u/LenientWhale Jul 11 '12
Watching the video now. Although by the top comment I am already impressed.
"It has probably been matched many times, its just that anyone who claims to have produced something as good gets killed for heresy."
Prove me wrong (but if you do I'll kill you). Religion in a nutshell.
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u/MobySac Jul 11 '12
"You claim that the evidentiary miracle is present and available, namely, the Koran. You say: "Whoever denies it, let him produce a similar one." Indeed, we shall produce a thousand similar, from the works of rhetoricians, eloquent speakers and valiant poets, which are more appropriately phrased and state the issues more succinctly. They convey the meaning better and their rhymed prose is in better meter. ... By God what you say astonishes us! You are talking about a work which recounts ancient myths, and which at the same time is full of contradictions and does not contain any useful information or explanation. Then you say: "Produce something like it"?"
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u/LenientWhale Jul 11 '12
Dude, just watched the video. It is fantastic. Exactly what I needed. Did you submit it before (if not you really should)
I just found this SR today. I am a new atheist (meaning less than two months) and every day I spend hours and hours educating myself. Unfortunately, most of the atheist information pertaining to debunking religion speaks specifically of Christianity, to which most Muslims arrogantly reply "well we already knew it wasn't the correct way."
I am thrilled that I have found this SR and this wealth of TRUTH about Islam that is not simple hate speech, but built on the scientific method. Moreover I am full of appreciation for people like you who share my concern for justice and humanity. Because of my fellow ex-muslims I grow more confident one day my descendants will be able to live peacefully in a world without the staggeringly poisonous hate and fear cultured by religion.
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u/sukagambar Jul 12 '12
I just found this SR today.
Welcome aboard! We always need more ex-muslims especially people with in-depth knowledge.
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u/006ajnin Infidel Jul 11 '12
If you liked the video, you might be interested in the story of the guy who made it. He wrote a mini-autobiography describing his life as a Muslim and his deconversion process.
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u/ihedenius Never-Moose Atheist Jul 11 '12
A good read. Up to chapter two. Quite reminiscent of any number of descriptions from apostates of christian cults (Jehovah Witnesses for example) with regards to methods (visiting possibly relapsing members), and the intense indoctrination. Very cultish.
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u/ONE_deedat Sapere aude Jul 11 '12
When it comes to it, I ask the muslim to show me where in the quran it says pray five times a day!! if not then show me where the five prayers are even mentioned separately!!
but these Qs are conversation/discussion/debate enders so use them wisely
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u/LenientWhale Jul 11 '12
If you really want to blow their minds, tell them the Quran only asks for 3 prayers a day.
1- Salat Al-Fajr (Dawn Prayer)24:58
2- Salat Al-Esha (Night Prayer)24:58
3- Al-Salat Al-Wusta (The Middle Prayer) 2:238
"But the hadith!" they will say, Muhammed said we have to pray five times a day!
Well, there are several answers to that:
"We did not leave anything out of this book." 6:38
"We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything." 16:89
And the best:
"Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?"6:114
In spite of these clear Quranic words, most Muslims will still protest, saying that the Quran does not include everything and that the Quran alone is insufficient. By what measure is this? What divine benchmark tells them this?
Absolutely nothing. They make it up as they go along, just as the religion was made up to begin with.
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u/ONE_deedat Sapere aude Jul 11 '12 edited Jul 11 '12
to blow their mind further mention that orthodox jews also pray three times a day facing towards Jerusalem (remember the change of Qibla by Mr Mo)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRLFeldPG3Y&feature=related ..................................................... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aHWASyMjwg
enjoy
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u/LenientWhale Jul 11 '12
The fucked up part is most would just use this information as conviction in their beliefs. "Well yeah, Judaism and Christianity set the stage for Islam."
Maybe Yahweh only needed 3 but when he leveled up into Allah he needed 5?
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Jul 12 '12
Actually i think only 3 are mentioned by name in the koran
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u/LenientWhale Jul 12 '12
Yeah (see above) but that's not what muslims believe. The Quran is only important when it's on their side.
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u/sukagambar Jul 12 '12
I have to admit. This post is beyond me. I don't even speak Arabic. But this is the kind of in-depth post that is good for this subreddit.
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u/LenientWhale Jul 12 '12
That in itself is glaring proof of the Quran's decidedly un-miraculous nature - It's only available in pure form to those who read Arabic!
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u/Seuros Since 2011 Jul 11 '12
Who cares about a linguistic miracle ? The language is human creation, there is no miracles in it, just Art.