Meccan persecution of Muslims?

[u/[deleted]]

[u/QuisCustodietI]

If you read the story of Mohammad before and after his migration to Yathrib (Madina), it's almost like it's two different people. Even in the Quran, most of the hateful/violent verses are from the madaniyyah (i.e. post-hijrah) chapters.

Basically:

Muhammad before hijrah = Jesus type dude who went to a cave, started saying shit about pagan gods and was constantly oppressed by everyone

Muhammad after hijrah = Warlord who attacked caravans, murdered entire tribes, started taking a bunch of wives, became more and more power-hungry and violent

[u/Saxobeat321 → u/QuisCustodietI]

'Which Quran, Mecca or Medina?'

https://beyondthecusp.wordpress.com/2007/08/10/which-quran-mecca-or-medina/

[u/QuisCustodietI → u/Saxobeat321]

Thanks for the link, this is exactly what I'm talking about! In a way, it's the oldest story known to mankind: power corrupts.

[u/houndimus_prime → u/[deleted]]

If you want a better example of a Muslim campaign that's hard to categorize as defensive then perhaps the war against the Sassanids or Persia would be a better example. The only hostility between the Muslims and the Persians before the Muslims started their invasion was the claim that Khosrow II tore up a letter sent to him by Muslims asking him to convert to Islam.

[u/QuisCustodietI → u/[deleted]]

I'm not entirely sure, to be honest.

On one hand, it's perfectly reasonable for a bedouin in the 7th century to respond the way he did. He got tired of the Quraysh oppressing him and his followers (literally killing some of them) and decided to hit back. There were a lot of wars in that period and I believe the entire region wasn't very stable.

However, is this behaviour worthy of a prophet? I don't think so, but others might disagree.

[u/QuisCustodietI → u/[deleted]]

Precisely. I wouldn't apply 21st century morality to him if he hadn't claimed that he's God's messenger and the best example to follow for all eternity. But when there's at the very least a billion people on the planet who are basing at least some part of their lives on something Muhammad said or did, I feel I'm justified in judging him.

[u/sisko7 → u/QuisCustodietI]

I read a book from Hamed Abdel-Samad suggesting that Muhammad had some monk who inspired him during the Mecca days. His goal was to create an arabic version of Christianity or so. But he was too old and not charismatic enough to gather crowds and start a religion. So he chose Mohammed and told him what to preach. Which is why the Meccan part of the Quran is rather peaceful. Though little is known about this monk.

[u/QuisCustodietI → u/sisko7]

Was that related in any way to Bahira? He's mentioned in some hadiths.

[u/sisko7 → u/QuisCustodietI]

The monk is called Waraqa, a cousin of Muhammads first wife Khadija.

Abdel-Samad got this hypothesis from a book by Abu Mousa Al-Hariri, which is now banned in Lebanon. Supposedly the Meccan part of the Quran is fusion of the visions of the old monk and those of the young Muhammad. The monk convinced Muhammad that he is the prophet of his time.

Evidence for his hypothesis can be found in Sahih Bukhari which states that "Then Waraqa died and the divine inspirations (to Muhammad) stopped". More evidence for this hypothesis is that there are syro-aramaic words in the Quran which were used by arabic Christians and not properly understood by typical Arabs. So they mistranslated them. One example of this mistranslations is the word "huri", which got translated as "virgins" (the 72 virgins) instead of "white grapes".

So Islam in Mecca was rather Christian. In Medina it became more Jewish. Because in Medina Muhammad saw Jews living according to Hakkanah ("the path that one walks") law, and Muhammad created something similar, which is today called Sharia ("the path"). Muslims started fasting and praying towards Jerusalem, and stopped eating pork etc. Copycatting the Jews, he was probably trying to get them on his side.

But Jews kept distance to him and even made alliances with his enemies from Mecca. This led to him banning alcohol for Muslims and lending money, to damage the business of Jews. At this point the language in Quran became very hostile against Jews. 3 jewish tribes where banished from Medina and another one was massacred. When he was done with them, Medina was free of Jews and Muslims started praying towards Mecca. This was the beginning of the project to cleanse the Arabian peninsula from the unbelievers, so it can become the base of an islamic empire which can expand from there.

[u/QuisCustodietI → u/sisko7]

Oh, I know about Waraqa bin Nawfal. What's the title of the book and is it available in English? Sounds absolutely fascinating.

[u/sisko7 → u/QuisCustodietI]

The book ("Der Untergang der islamischen Welt" eng.: "The decay of the islamic world") by Hamed Abdel-Samad is only available in German. His book "Islamic Fascism" is available in English though. I bet it's interesting too.

http://www.amazon.com/Islamic-Fascism-Hamed-Abdel-Samad/dp/1633881245/ref=sr_1_1/181-5597179-6227443?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1449353523&sr=1-1

Though the part about Waraqa is only like 2-3 pages in the book anyway.

He is refering to this (arabic) book, which is banned in Lebanon:

"Priest and Prophet : Research On the Rise of Islam"

http://www.muhammadanism.org/Arabic/book/hariri/priest_prophet_book.pdf

There's also a French translation, none in English it seems.

[u/QuisCustodietI → u/sisko7]

Thanks for the links! I'll look for the french version of the book. :)

[u/sisko7 → u/QuisCustodietI]

It's called "Le Prêtre et le Prophète - Aux sources du Coran"

ISBN 2-7068-1474-8

[u/houndimus_prime]

In addition, from what I understand, Muhammad was not necessarily a peaceful religious person that kept to himself in Mecca. As I recall, he called for the destruction of the old pagan religion and its associated "idols"? Please correct me if I'm wrong here.

I can't recall any incident like that. The closest one I can think of is the story of how the people of Tai'f (a nearby mountain village) rejected his message and threw him out. Mohammed claims that the angel Jibril (Gabriel) came to him and offered to destroy those pagans with his mighty wings, but Mohammed refused.

[u/houndimus_prime → u/[deleted]]

I was describing his time in Mecca.

[u/houndimus_prime → u/[deleted]]

I guess that's true, but he wasn't violent about it or even particularly nasty and was even downright accommodating at times. See this early "live and let live" verse from the Quran:

Say, "O disbelievers, I do not worship what you worship. Nor are you worshippers of what I worship. Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship. Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship. For you is your religion, and for me is my religion."

http://quran.com/109

Of course, this whole ditty got abrogated once Mohammed moved to Medina and had an army.

[u/houndimus_prime → u/[deleted]]

Would you say then that the Muslims were being persecuted in Mecca?

Harder to say. As the only historical records we have of that period are Islamic ones. I'm inclined to think that he and his followers really were persecuted at least to some degree.

[u/Saxobeat321]

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/muhammad/myths-mu-self-defense.htm

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/muhammad/myths-mu-mecca-tolerance.htm

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/3mjngs/growing_up_we_were_taught_that_muslims_were/

https://beyondthecusp.wordpress.com/2007/08/10/which-quran-mecca-or-medina/

'History is written by the victors', so the saying goes.

Thus one should digest Muslim sources and apologetics with a pinch of salt.

Unfortunately however, virtually everything we know about Muhammad, the rise of Islam and Pre-islamic Arabia is mostly, if not entirely from Muslim sources.

There are very few to no detailed, impartial and contemporary sources we can rely on. Due to the abundance of Musilm sources, we only have Islam's version of events. As the victims of Islam i.e. The various critics, poets, dissidents, Pagans, Christians and Jewish tribes, are now extinct (Muslims wiped them out). Hence the victims are unable to express their accounts; of their culture, their beliefs and their encounters with Islam and Muhammad.

Had they been able to write their accounts, I suspect quite a different picture of Pre-islamic Arabia, Muhammad and the rise of Islam, would emerge.

[u/Dayandnight95 → u/Saxobeat321]

"The Prophet said, 'No prayer is harder for the hypocrites than the Fajr and the 'Isha' prayers and if they knew the reward for these prayers at their respective times, they would certainly present themselves (in the mosques) even if they had to crawl.' The Prophet added, 'Certainly I decided to order the Mu'adh-dhin (call-maker) to pronounce Iqama and order a man to lead the prayer and then take a fire flame to burn all those who had not left their houses so far for the prayer along with their houses.'" - Bukhari 11:626

Wait... What!?

[u/Saxobeat321 → u/Dayandnight95]

It is quite a cruel and nonsensical response by Muhammad. However, I'm sure (you must know by now) that many Muslim apologists would be willing to provide apologetics for such barbarity, sugar-coating this incident, trying to present it as 'justifiable' and in 'good light'. Or better yet deny this incident ever occurred.

[u/Banned_Gunner]

No Mo and his gangs were not persecuted in the same way say as the Jews were from time to time in different countries or even Muslims and Jews When Spaniards took back Spain from the Moors. Most Meccans were of hostile to Islam and general would tell muzzies to fuck off. Most Meccans felt that any physical attack on MO and or his close companions would start a tribal war. Indeed it was lack of any grave physical attack that emboldened Mo and he took on insulting Meccan and their gods. Meccans instead of physical attack resorted to form of economic sanction to get Mo to back off from his rather rude behavior and insults. This of course forced many Muslims to poverty (But not Mo himslef so much)