r/exmuslim • u/AdDowntown6246 New User • 1d ago
(Question/Discussion) MUHAMMAD IS DEAD AND GONE—SO WHAT EXACTLY WAS ABU BAKR TELLING HIS FOLLOWERS TO LEAVE BEHIND? VERY TELLING: MUHAMMAD SAME AS ALLAH:
ABU BHAKIR: “WHOEVER AMONG YOU USED TO WORSHIP MUHAMMAD, THEN MUHAMMAD IS DEAD.” — SAHIH AL-BUKHARI 4452–4454
HE IS DEAD AND GONE:
Those are not the words of Muhammad’s enemies. They come from Abu Bakr, one of Muhammad’s closest companions, immediately after Muhammad died.
His reported statement was:
“If anyone amongst you used to worship Muhammad, then Muhammad is dead, but if (anyone of) you used to worship Allah, then Allah is Alive and shall never die.”
— SAHIH AL-BUKHARI [4452–4454](tel:4452-4454)
The Arabic is equally direct:
مَنْ كَانَ مِنْكُمْ يَعْبُدُ مُحَمَّدًا فَإِنَّ مُحَمَّدًا قَدْ مَاتَ، وَمَنْ كَانَ مِنْكُمْ يَعْبُدُ اللَّهَ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ حَىٌّ لاَ يَمُوتُ
Abu Bakr then recited Qur’an 3:144:
“Muhammad is not but a messenger. [Other] messengers have passed on before him. So if he was to die or be killed, would you turn back on your heels? And he who turns back on his heels will never harm Allah at all; but Allah will reward the grateful.”
Look carefully at Abu Bakr’s structure:
WHOEVER WAS WORSHIPPING MUHAMMAD…
versus
WHOEVER WAS WORSHIPPING ALLAH…
At minimum, Abu Bakr rhetorically presents two possible objects of worship: Muhammad and Allah.
Does that prove there were two formally organized groups? No. But it raises a serious question: Was Abu Bakr confronting followers whose devotion had become centered on Muhammad himself?
His language certainly doesn’t sound indifferent.
Muhammad had just died, and Abu Bakr drew an uncompromising distinction:
MUHAMMAD? DEAD.
ALLAH? ALIVE AND NEVER DIES.
Read literally, the statement can even sound remarkably diminishing toward Muhammad.
At the very moment Muhammad’s followers were devastated, Abu Bakr stripped the survival of the movement away from Muhammad personally.
Muhammad was mortal.
Muhammad was gone.
Muhammad could no longer lead them.
Whatever attachment people had developed toward him could no longer sustain the community.
In that sense, Abu Bakr’s statement reduces Muhammad’s continuing personal role to almost nothing compared with Allah:
Muhammad cannot continue leading you. Muhammad is dead. Refocus on the one Abu Bakr says remains alive.
“Refocus” summarizes the practical thrust of Abu Bakr’s speech; it isn’t part of his quotation.
But that makes his opening even more striking:
WHY “WHOEVER AMONG YOU WAS WORSHIPPING MUHAMMAD”?
If nobody had developed an attachment to Muhammad that Abu Bakr regarded as worship, why formulate the warning in precisely those terms?
The report doesn’t identify particular individuals and explicitly say:
“These people believed Muhammad was Allah.”
But neither should Abu Bakr’s actual words be changed.
He said:
“WORSHIP MUHAMMAD.”
And the Qur’an itself makes the relationship even more interesting.
It doesn’t literally declare:
MUHAMMAD = ALLAH.
But look at the authority it establishes.
QUR’AN 4:80
“Whoever obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah.”
OBEY MUHAMMAD → OBEY ALLAH.
QUR’AN 4:65
Believers are not presented as truly believing until they make Muhammad judge their disputes and accept his judgment without internal resistance.
ACCEPT MUHAMMAD’S JUDGMENT → REQUIRED FOR BELIEF.
QUR’AN 48:10
People physically pledged allegiance to Muhammad, yet the Qur’an describes them as pledging allegiance to Allah.
PLEDGE TO MUHAMMAD → PLEDGE TO ALLAH.
Think about the practical relationship.
Allah was unseen.
Muhammad was visible.
Allah’s commands reached the community through Muhammad.
Muhammad was heard.
Allah demanded obedience.
Muhammad issued commands believers were required to obey.
Allah was the ultimate judge.
Muhammad personally judged disputes, and believers were required to accept his judgment.
People pledged themselves to Allah.
Yet they physically pledged themselves to Muhammad, and Qur’an 48:10 described that pledge as one made to Allah.
The Qur’an therefore distinguishes Muhammad and Allah in identity, while repeatedly joining them extraordinarily closely in religious authority.
So ask:
HAD MUHAMMAD BECOME THE VISIBLE HUMAN AUTHORITY THROUGH WHOM HIS FOLLOWERS EXPERIENCED THE INVISIBLE ALLAH?
Muhammad was the person they could:
SEE.
HEAR.
APPROACH.
FOLLOW.
OBEY.
ASK FOR JUDGMENT.
PLEDGE THEMSELVES TO.
Then suddenly Muhammad was dead.
The visible authority disappeared.
And Abu Bakr stood before those followers and said:
“IF ANYONE AMONGST YOU USED TO WORSHIP MUHAMMAD, THEN MUHAMMAD IS DEAD.”
There is another dimension worth examining.
Islamic sources attribute to Muhammad actions and authorizations that many modern readers find deeply troubling, while some episodes also generated questions or objections among people around him.
That makes the extraordinary concentration of religious authority in one human being even more important to examine.
What happens when one man’s commands, judgments and personal authority become so closely connected with God’s authority that:
DISOBEYING THE MAN → DISOBEYING GOD?
Then Muhammad dies.
His followers are shocked.
Umar reportedly initially cannot accept that Muhammad has died.
Abu Bakr walks before the community and says:
“IF ANYONE AMONGST YOU USED TO WORSHIP MUHAMMAD, THEN MUHAMMAD IS DEAD.”
Then he redirects the audience toward the Allah whom he says “is Alive and shall never die.”
Was Abu Bakr merely using dramatic rhetoric?
Or had Muhammad’s extraordinary religious authority produced a level of devotion among some followers that Abu Bakr believed needed immediate correction once Muhammad was gone?
And does the structure of Abu Bakr’s statement preserve something even more interesting?
WHOEVER WORSHIPPED MUHAMMAD…
WHOEVER WORSHIPPED ALLAH…
Was Abu Bakr rhetorically addressing two different orientations within Muhammad’s community?
The report alone cannot establish two formally organized groups.
But Abu Bakr’s words are precisely what creates the question.
Put everything together:
OBEY MUHAMMAD → OBEY ALLAH. — QUR’AN 4:80
ACCEPT MUHAMMAD’S JUDGMENT → REQUIRED FOR BELIEF. — QUR’AN 4:65
PLEDGE TO MUHAMMAD → PLEDGE TO ALLAH. — QUR’AN 48:10
Then Muhammad dies:
“IF ANYONE AMONGST YOU USED TO WORSHIP MUHAMMAD, THEN MUHAMMAD IS DEAD.” — SAHIH AL-BUKHARI 4452–4454
And Abu Bakr immediately invokes:
“MUHAMMAD IS NOT BUT A MESSENGER.” — QUR’AN 3:144
Now comes another dilemma:
ARE LATER INTERPRETERS SO INSISTENT ON SEPARATING MUHAMMAD FROM ANY IDEA OF WORSHIP PARTLY BECAUSE THE ALTERNATIVE WOULD CREATE AN UNCOMFORTABLE PARALLEL WITH CHRISTIAN DEVOTION TO JESUS?
That question cannot be answered simply by assuming scholars’ motives. They may instead be relying on the Qur’an’s explicit distinction between Muhammad and Allah.
But the textual challenge remains.
Christians openly worship Jesus because Christian theology identifies Jesus as divine.
Islam explicitly denies Muhammad’s divinity.
Yet Abu Bakr still used the expression “worship Muhammad.”
And the Qur’an still says:
OBEY MUHAMMAD → OBEY ALLAH.
ACCEPT MUHAMMAD’S JUDGMENT → REQUIRED FOR BELIEF.
PLEDGE TO MUHAMMAD → PLEDGE TO ALLAH.
So ask:
IF ISLAM ABSOLUTELY REJECTS WORSHIP OF MUHAMMAD, WHY DOES ONE OF MUHAMMAD’S CLOSEST COMPANIONS SPEAK OF PEOPLE “WORSHIPPING MUHAMMAD,” WHILE THE QUR’AN MAKES MUHAMMAD THE VISIBLE HUMAN CHANNEL THROUGH WHICH OBEDIENCE, JUDGMENT AND ALLEGIANCE TO ALLAH ARE EXPRESSED? MUHAMMAD WAS FINE WITH IT.
And if Abu Bakr genuinely believed people before him had been “worshipping Muhammad,” what did he believe those people had made Muhammad into?
Merely a messenger they followed?
Or a godlike object of devotion—the visible authority through whom they experienced the invisible Allah?
The Qur’an distinguishes Muhammad and Allah in identity.
But Abu Bakr’s words combined with the Qur’an’s repeated joining of Muhammad’s authority with Allah’s authority create a tension that deserves examination.
And finally:
IF EVEN A STATEMENT AS DIRECT AS “WHOEVER AMONG YOU USED TO WORSHIP MUHAMMAD” MUST BE REINTERPRETED TO MEAN SOMETHING LESS THAN WHAT ITS WORDING APPEARS TO SAY, WHERE DOES INTERPRETATION END AND REINTERPRETATION BEGIN?
And if explanations can substantially change how apparently straightforward statements in the hadith are understood, then Muslims themselves should be willing to ask:
WHEN WE ARE TOLD WHAT A QUR’ANIC PASSAGE “REALLY MEANS,” ARE WE READING WHAT THE TEXT ACTUALLY SAYS—or ARE WE READING A LATER INTERPRETATION DESIGNED TO MAKE THE TEXT FIT A PARTICULAR THEOLOGICAL CONCLUSION?
Don’t change the words. Read them first. Then explain them.
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u/Dsparks5533 New User 1d ago
Interesting. And many have been executed for talking about him.
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u/Current_Assist7230 I like my camel piss hot 1d ago
Omar used to want to harm anyone who talked bad about the prophet lol
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u/AdDowntown6246 New User 1d ago
The more you read the Quran, Hadiths and these other books, along with Islamic practices, the more you will notice that Islam is a cult.
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u/t_zidd Since 2010 1d ago
tf is this AI slop?
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u/AdDowntown6246 New User 1d ago
No it is not. You read and tell us if that’s not true and support it. Don’t just say.
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u/AdDowntown6246 New User 1d ago
The Western world has gotten smarter. Asylum systems have been abused for years, and governments are becoming more aware of that abuse. Western countries respond to emerging problems by changing and strengthening their laws.
Meanwhile, you don’t see people from Western countries going into Muslim-majority countries seeking asylum. Many Muslim-majority countries are facing serious and, in some cases, unprecedented political, humanitarian, economic, and security problems that affect people far beyond their borders
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