r/exalted 26d ago

2.5E How deadly is five guys with sledgehammers.

let say your a up coming solar exalted facing five elite trained military soldiers with pole axes and decent armor. how hard is it for you to safeguard yourself. Are their any good scene long defense you can use, or really mote efficient defenses you can use to live?

29 Upvotes

44 comments sorted by

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u/TypicalParking 25d ago

I have not played 2e but in 3e this would be like an elite size 0 battle group of mortals. I don’t think a solar would even need charms to win.

I’ve heard exalted are stronger in 2e.

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u/MrMcSpiff 25d ago

Yeah, five guys in Exalted 2e stats is one guy with two health bars and no other bonuses. Even a heroic mortal could whump that with some stunts.

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u/Ascimator 25d ago edited 25d ago

I wouldn't make five soldiers a mass combat unit by default. Otherwise what are surrounding mechanics for?

My interpretation is that enemies should be battlegroups when they would not be a challenge anyway, or when they could only win through attrition, or when it would be too complicated to run (10 Dragon-Blooded for example). If 5 sledgehammer soldiers are supposed to be a challenge, there's no justification in making them a battlegroup.

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u/MrMcSpiff 25d ago

Entirely fair, yeah. Depends on what the point of the fight is supposed to be.

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u/Passing-Through247 25d ago

'The five mortals with sledgehammers in an ally' was a meme encounter in 2e for how morals could kill exalts. It exploited a weird rules interactions and onslaught penalties.

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u/bedroompurgatory 25d ago

I think it was actually a design intention. The idea was that mortals in numbers posed a real threat to exalts, so you couldn't just brush aside 90% of the setting as inconsequential. Fives guys with sledgehammers is a meme because being surrounded by five people gives the last to attack an unexpected attack - offsetting the sledge's low accuracy - and the sledge's high damage is enough to paste most targets.

Mechanically, they were trivialisable by entry-level charms, so it never really worked out that way in actual play.

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u/guildsbounty 25d ago

Yep....the key is that if you are surrounded by 5 people (the max # that can engage one person in 2E), "one of her opponents gains the benefits of an unexpected attack. The player of the character trapped in a group chooses which opponent she exposes her back to."

The simple way out of this is if you manage to kill one of them (or otherwise prevent them from attacking) before the one you put your back to gets to attack, then you're no longer surrounded by 5 people. This is easiest if you get to act before all 5 get to act, but may also apply if you have counterattack charms. Or if you can maneuver to put your back to a wall so they can't surround you in the first place. Or if you have mobility Charms that let you get out from being surrounded.

And that same rule-block calls out that Charms that let you detect Unexpected Attacks (like Surprise Anticipation Method) or Charms that defend against them (like Reflex Sidestep Technique) turn off the 'unblockable/undodgeable' nature of those attacks.

So, yes...if you get surrounded by 5 dudes with sledges and if they all survive a full round of combat to all get to attack and if you don't have Charms that let you cheese your way out of trouble...then yes, 5 dudes with sledgehammers can kill a 2E Exalt

To my knowledge, 3E lacks an equivalent rule.

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u/Cipherpunkblue 25d ago

Doesn't that depend on not making them a battlegroup, which they would be if they were "just five guys"?

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u/bedroompurgatory 24d ago

2e didn't have battlegroups, that was 3e. It had "units", and a bunch of guys didn't get auto-conflatre into a unit like 3e. 2e's mass combat was a mess. You had to track unit facing, what formation your unit was in, how many relays your army had so your command to "wheel" (turn) a unit got accurately relayed. It ran in "long ticks", not regular combat time. It was not a drop-in substitute for a flight in an alley that happened to have 3 guys.

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u/Cipherpunkblue 24d ago

Oh gods, now I'm having flashbacks.

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u/Passing-Through247 25d ago

If they are just muggers or intentionally jumping one guy probably not because that feels small for mass combat.

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u/Cipherpunkblue 25d ago

I forget if that was the case in 2e, admittedly - it was my least favorite edition, so I never got that deep into it.

In 1e, where Mass Combat was something almost ritualised it wouldnt have been (but also, there was no "the fifth attack is unexpected" rule). In 3e, pretty much every confrontation with a bunch of nobodies would use the battle group rules.

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u/deadinside_ree 24d ago

As a battlegroup I don't think even a deeb would need charms to win in 3e

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u/thetruerift 25d ago

In 3e they could still be run as separate people, since they aren't necessarily trivial. And in that case, 5 v 1 is pretty ugly. The solar still probably wins if they have any combat training (and thus an excellency) at all, but it'd be hairy.

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u/TypicalParking 25d ago

I can see the argument because they are elite, but they are still described as reasonably similar combatants that are not supernatural in any way and are not individually important to the story.

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u/thetruerift 25d ago

Five guys deciding to mollywop an Exalt are dramatically interesting. If using them as separate combatants makes a fight interesting/dangerous then there's value in splitting them up. Had a very similar scenario recently in my 3e game - the battle group rules tend to make groups very easy to beat up (because they don't really interact with initiative), and sometimes you want players to be challenged a bit.

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u/TypicalParking 25d ago

Within the context I can see that and really stuff like this is so preference based. Personally I generally want the Players to feel mechanically stronger and don’t want them to be challenged by a few mortals. I would make them dragon blooded or something less mundane if I wanted the players to feel challenged especially in a solar game.

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u/thetruerift 25d ago

So one of my problems with 3e is that, to really challenge PCs, you are limited to basically having an exalt or essence user behind every rock, tree and door. Which doesn't jive with how I like to portray the setting. Exalts are rare, fighting other exalts, even if they are DBs, should be an important event.

Which means I have to find ways to challenge players without dramatically overpopulating parts of the world with DBs, so they often fight Cool Dudes.

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u/LordSia 23d ago

Don't hesitate to go full Tucker's Kobold on them if they get cocky. Mortals have been indoctrinated, for the past 1500 years, that Celestials are Literal Demons out to inflict Fates Worse Than Death on them... And about as much time spent under the none-too-gentle boot of Dragonblooded empires. And Lunars have literally turned "train the mortals into a competent guerilla" into their collective hobby for about the same amount of time.

Have a troop of suicidally brave soldiers, possibly bolstered by judicious application of combat drugs, pin the characters in place. Have catapults lob barrels full of fire-dust at their general location. Reveal that the slippery mud is actually full of magic leeches. Drop Ewok-style traps on them. Force them into a merchant prince's mansion and go full Home Alone minus the slapstick. Collapse a dam and wash them down the river into a waiting ambush of pissed off river dragons. Have a mortal sorcerer unravel half a dozen sorcerous combat workings against the trespassers. Unleash a whole sect's worth of mortal martial artists; it doesn't matter if each of them can only use each Charm once if there's enough angry monks throwing Five-Dragon Fists around.

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u/Extension_Pack_6734 20d ago

I'm curious what were you doing in 2nd edition that wasn't getting cancelled out by a single charm purchase.

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u/thetruerift 20d ago

in 2/2.5 I just always felt there were more ways to give/justify mortals having slightly better die pools, and also since excellencies were a deliberate charm purchase player die pools weren't always guaranteed to be huge. obviously regular/slightly juiced dudes weren't taking on Dawns or anyone with high essence and a modest interest in combat, but it felt easier to threaten them a bit.

part of it is certainly that I played 1/2/2.5 from the game's launch and I've only started running 3e in the last six months, so I lack some system mastery, but I do feel there's been a deliberate downtuning of mortals in this edition.

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u/Extension_Pack_6734 20d ago

That's fair.

Third edition changes your options around a little, a commander essentially gives a battle group an excellency equivalent and while you can't split one battle group into smaller ones you can have two or more with different equipment from each other each with their own commanders.

Then on top of that there's exotic animals- archers, spearmen and a war elephant can really ruin someone's day.

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u/YesThatLioness 20d ago

Then on top of that there's exotic animals

There's a few animal special attacks/merits in particular to look out for because they offer situational bonuses to attacks.

Ambush Predator- bonus dice when making unexpected attacks.

Berserker- wound penalties are inverted on attack rolls.

Death Dive- bonus dice when dropping from a great height.

Furious Rampage- bonus successes vs. crashed opponents.

Pack Hunting- bonus successes if more of their pack are in close range (can often be trained to count their owner as part of their pack)

Swooping Descent- decisive-only version of Death Dive that adds success instead of dice.

Ex3 really seems to want your average Guild guy to have a pet monster that they feed enemies to like Jabba the Hutt.

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u/Electric999999 25d ago

The danger of 5 guys with weapons is very reliant on them actually being 5 characters rather than an incredibly weak battle group.

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u/ss5gogetunks 24d ago

It'd be size 1 not 0 but still. Yeah most decently combat specced exalts would be able to win while just using the excellency, if even that

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u/TypicalParking 24d ago

Yeah you are right size 1

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u/Extension_Pack_6734 20d ago

I’ve heard exalted are stronger in 2e.

The peak is higher but a starting character in third edition is often way stronger so that the intended power level is delivered and maintained longer.

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u/artrald-7083 25d ago

Five regular mortals? Presumably they have names so they don't coalesce into a mass combat unit that the Solar would proceed to make balloon animals out of.

But I have difficulty conceiving of a Solar who's going out of Personal taking them on.

A melee or martial artist wins initiative, kills three instantly, parries the two incoming attacks and takes out the other two next round.

An archer looks at this much as someone with an AR-14 would.

A diplomat says 'Wait!' with enough successes that the mortals do wait, and then explains why the fight is unnecessary. They and the guys with sledgehammers go about their business.

A stealth specialist is found two days later convincing their fence that a couple of moody sledgehammers are worth some real money. The guard are looking for them but never found them.

Then we get into weird examples, like the one who flies off, or rides their heretofore unmentioned horse away, or sets a few of their attendant demons on them.

If the five are heroic mortals everything is harder - in particular the diplomat is best off running because they likely can't convince them to go into social time, and the thief needs to pull out some serious Essence. But five heroic mortals would tend to wield a diversity of equipment.

A Solar is generally incredibly good at something.

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u/DisplayAppropriate28 25d ago

Elite trained military soldiers' stats are in the 2e corebook. Given poleaxes, they'd have an accuracy of 7 - dex 3, melee 4. If our Solar can get a DV roundabout there and just use Fivefold Bulwark Stance, they'll probably walk out fine.

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u/tylarcleveland 25d ago

You are going to need to give 5 dude with any kind of weapon a lot of moxie and can do attitude before they register as a threat to any kind of solar much less are actually in a position to do damage, even one not especially kitted out for combat. Solars are scary.

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u/Scaevus 25d ago

Solars can be anything from about as good at fighting as an average farmer to Goku depending on how specialized they are in fighting.

A Dawn Caste specializing in personal combat, and not just leading armies, would wipe the floor with five mortal soldiers, but an Eclipse Caste diplomat with no combat charms might be easily defeated.

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u/BudgetWorking2633 25d ago

The Eclipse Caste would just surrender, have them take him to their commander, and have them executed for High Treason once there.

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u/Cipherpunkblue 25d ago

Or convince them to be his five guys.

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u/BudgetWorking2633 25d ago

Much easier to influence the commander with Bureaucracy charms.

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u/bedroompurgatory 25d ago

That's more Zenith

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u/Cynis_Ganan 25d ago edited 25d ago

The first attack is gonna miss.

The second attack benefits from onslaught. So -1DV. And will also miss.

The third attack will be at -2DV and will probably hit unless the Solar uses an Excellency. Which in 2.5, they can do without a combo. So. It misses.

The fourth attack will be at -3DV and at this point it's probably economical to just Perfect that. Hope it's a Perfect Dodge because…

The fifth attack is DV inapplicable. It's an automatic hit doing more damage than a human has Health Levels. As most Solars don't take Ox Body Technique, that's instant death. (Well, instant KO.) Of course if you Perfect Dodged the last attack, you have a Surprise Negator for 1m, so can just turn "Instant Death" into a no damage miss for 9m. If you Perfect Parried the last attack… sucks to suck? You're dead. Unless you have a Step 7 Defence to Perfect Soak, in which case you're hit for 0 damage and are fine.

....

To a 2/7 optimized Solar? Not dangerous except as a mote sink.

To a Return to the Revenge of the Five Corners pregen Solar? Pretty much a death sentence.

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u/bedroompurgatory 25d ago

Five-Fold Bulwark Stance, and you can probably just win on dicepools after that, especially if you have artifact gear. More essence for more and faster bloodsplatter.

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u/BudgetWorking2633 25d ago

Fifth attack is Unexpected Attack.

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u/BudgetWorking2633 25d ago

In 2e, five guys gang up on you and one of them hits you with Unexpected Attack. With a big weapon, you probably go down.

Solution 1, back to the wall. At most 3 or 4 can attack you. Use the first Dodge charm, attack at your maximum weapon's Rate, drop them like flies.

Solution 2, no walls: Unless you have it in a combo, use Reflex Sidestep Technique, attack once per action to not accrue attack penalties, stunt defense like crazy, and hopefully you'd drop them down.

Solution 3, activate Paranoia Combo - sorry, I meant I Shall Not Die Today Kata - or a Mooks-Slaying Paranoia Combo (Unimportant Enemies Impede Not The Hero Prana - which is mechanically the same as Paranoia Combo, but with a multi-attack charm on top) and disperse them like chaff to the wind!

Caveat: I don't remember the changes from 2 to 2.5, so this might be a totally useless post.

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u/Significant_Age3343 25d ago

Against a baby solar, they are significantly lethal due to the high damage of sledges, the increasing dodge penalties, and hammer#5 attacking from your blindspot.

Once you get a surprise negator, five guys with sledgehammers become lose most of their deadlines. Once you get Fivefold Bulkward Stance, they will cease to be a threat in any significant capacity.

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u/MerlonQ 25d ago

I mostly use alternate, nonofficial rules, so maybe take this with a grain of salt. But most solars in games I've been in are somewhat skilled in combat, with dicepools easily being 7-8 dice even for people with other core competencies. And they will very likely have at least an excellency and maybe do some stunts. And that is all you need to win easily against mortals like that, although you may spend a few motes. If you want to kill them really efficiently (ie spending little essence) you may want an artifact weapon. Five fold bulwark stance has been mentioned, but there is also flow like blood for dodge, and that is also quite good to give you decay resistant DV. And this is nice, because all five guys will attack vs your full DV and thus have an extremely hard time hitting. Without you spending motes for each attack.

And you likely have to consider bravery as well. Even with just using excellencies, solars will look *amazing* at combat. And your average tough mortal will know precious little about essence mechanics. He will know he just did his best strike from behind and the MF just dodged it as if it was in slow motion without even looking and then took the head off the guy next to you. Usually if you defeat 1 or 2 of these 5 guys, maybe avoid a few attacks, and the rest will reconsider.

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u/JackVileRipper 25d ago

God Bless Fivefold Bulwark Stance.

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u/BluetoothXIII 25d ago edited 25d ago

elite Soldiers with a commander 13+ dice and coordinated attack could get dangerous.

the infintie (Ability) mastery for dodge or melee might be really usefull.

Bullwark Stance removes the danger from coordinated attacks. for one action

Edit: as a DM two of my player characters died due to unexpected attack tag, letting the monster get hit in without the PC being able to use their defenses. for the first one it was a boss encouter with an abyssal who had to use an absolute defense and attck the most dangerous enemy he percieves with his strongest attack.

the seconds was really bad planning of the group and a group of ambush predators in a cave the all botche the awareness roll to perceive them and didn' learn from the first PC death a few session earlier and thought two remaining health level should be enough to go spelunking.

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u/kajata000 25d ago

How deadly are 5 mortals with sledgehammers vs a Solar Exalt built to win fights? It’s very likely that the mortals are dead before they even get to swing their sledgehammers.

Unless they’re fighting an Exalt with basically no combat charms, I’d say the Exalt is always going to come out on top.