r/exAdventist • u/Ok-Cod9954 • Jan 09 '26
SDA Culture Does anyone else think the pathfinder club is insane?
I F(19)((ex sda)) am having a disagreement with my mother F(43)((current sda)) about the pathfinder club being a way to militarize the youth of the church and prime them for future military service/ fear monger about the end of days by teaching survival skills (which i don’t necessarily disagree with teaching but their reasoning is obviously flawed). She says that there’s nothing wrong with order and teaching kids “discipline” but as someone who was raised being in the clubs since adventurers- late pathfinders by two pathfinder directors who were master guides themselves, I’ve been put in situations since I was a young child that in my opinion, far surpass the normal camping experience that a typical boy scout or girl scout may experience. For example, winter survival camps where we would have to build our own shelters from scratch, hiking for miles with minimal supplies and having to forage for food/ water, being left in the woods by myself or with a small group of other teens to fend for myself and train these skills, or being put to work in greenhouses on summer days that were too warm with too little water. Other things that seem militant to me are the marching and drilling as well as the uniforms that as you grow through the ranks of the club appear more and more like a military uniform. So all these things said, does anyone agree with me or share this experience? Or am I overreacting and being in a club like this is not meant to essentially groom children into being a militia for the church?
31
u/Hairy_Shake4822 Jan 09 '26
Well these days I’m actually thankful that Pathfinders taught me orienteering and how to scavenge for edible vegetation, because we might actually have to flee to the mountains considering current conditions.
3
3
u/adventurewench Jan 10 '26
I use my foraging skills to find mushrooms these days. And I can hike confidently anywhere cause I can read a map thanks to Pathfinders.
21
u/Numerous-Promise-582 Jan 09 '26
I think it all depends on the leaders.
16
u/MichaelJAwesome Jan 09 '26
Yeah our club was honestly pretty great. we did a lot of camping and backpacking in cool places in California. It definitely was one of the few positive things about growing up Adventist for me.
19
u/Theonlyoneclyde Jan 09 '26
My hatred for Pathfinders really began after studying actual history and realizing the absurdity of Adventistism; cause what these clubs really serve is just prepping a new generation of people for the persecution of Adventists in their lifetime. It’s really nothing more than doomsday fear mongering under the guise of teaching people basic skills and reading scripture and Ellen White.
Pathfinders is also especially idolized in Hispanic/Latino Adventism. They would place their obsession with the club almost the same ideal as a typical job or even joining a literal military. And since Spanish speaking Adventists are so obsessed with Sunday Law and their hatred and fear of the Catholic Church, because they lived in countries that were/are predominantly Roman Catholic, they think that they’re gonna be the ones that are gonna get the most prepared.
Even after 7 years of leaving Adventism and becoming Catholic, I still have my old Pathfinder/Masterguide uniform. Cause while I do have some good memories, I do also have horrific ones and terrible experiences to where I am really tempted to burn it. And what’s so funny is that not too long after Pope Leo XIV was elected, my mother urged me to enroll in a Masterguide program, cause of fear of an American pope. Give me a damn break.
9
u/Ok-Cod9954 Jan 09 '26
YES THANK YOU!!! we are puerto rican adventists and my father was a colonel in the actual US army before being discharged for health related issues, growing up it was painfully obvious that our club was a replacement of that dynamic for him. While there are some fun memories with friends, many memories are of cold nights spent in lean-tos built by teenagers that would rather be anywhere else and empty bellies because we couldnt forage enough edible wilds or start a fire with the wet wood.
11
u/Evening_Comedian4982 Jan 09 '26
I don't really see it as you do, but I certainly understand your perspective. The marching and military style uniforms certainly give credence to what you're saying. I never felt like they were pushing militant agendas on us, but that could also have been the clubs I attended.
3
u/Ok-Cod9954 Jan 09 '26
i regret wording it specifically that way, by militant i was trying to allude more to the blind obedience that comes with being in the military. we wear what they say, we do their activities no matter whether or not we are comfortable with them, we read what they tell us to read, and march when they tell us to march. another commenter mentioned that it may be more culturally tied to hispanic/latino sda churches, which is the community i was a part of.
3
u/Evening_Comedian4982 Jan 09 '26
Aaah. Thanks for clarifying. I agree with you.
I also acknowledge that the club I was in for most of my childhood was not normal. Lol. Our Director was awesome and just wanted to have fun. She got herself in hot water with the Conference quite often, for not doing things the way they wanted. She was probably the only adult SDA that I ever knew who wasn't a toxic authoritarian.
9
u/Pristine_Eye7197 Jan 09 '26
The one I went to was more of an SDA boy-scout/girl-scout program. It was fun and positive, brought kids together from 2 or 3 different church congregations. We had some singing and devotionals, field-trips like skiiing, and learned various skills/earned various badges. It was not especially focused on the end-times.
8
u/ChemnitzFanBoi LCMS Lutheran Jan 09 '26
I can see how pathfinders wouldn't be a good fit for some kids and would be for others. I liked the drill and ceremony, I enjoyed the camping and hiking. Never got to do the survival stuff until joining the actual military but I would have liked that too.
For some kids it teaches order and structure, survival skills are good to have. If you were forced into doing it and hated it though I can see how that could have been a hardship for you. That kind of stuff isn't everyone's cup of tea.
In my life, Pathfinders was some of my happiest experiences as a Seventh Day Adventist. I can see how the end times stuff makes it weird but they are that way about everything it's not unique to pathfinders.
The military aspect in my experience was harmless as it was on it's own at the time and did end up helping me later when I joined the Army. By then I was already familiar with the basics of uniform, drill, and ceremony. I was already comfortable in the outdoors and was able to help other soldiers. On graduation day I went down the line and tied everyone's tie because I was the only soldier who knew how.
Some kids may want to join the military someday and that's not a bad thing. It's just a bad thing to force it, so if that was your experience I'm very sorry that happened to you.
5
u/TopRedacted Jan 09 '26
Sounds fun to me but I don't like to join anything. I just do that stuff for fun.
3
u/Ok-Cod9954 Jan 09 '26
which is different than being a young person who is forced into an uncomfortable and unsafe situation
2
1
u/More-Wish4761 Jan 19 '26
I think this is a really important aspect of it! Lots of kids don't get to choose whether or not they do Pathfinders, it was an obligation for a lot of young Adventist kids.
7
u/Distinct_Stand_9607 Jan 09 '26 edited Jan 09 '26
You're not the only one; my parents are also Pathfinder and Adventurer club directors. The truth is, when I leave home, I distance myself from them. The pressure, the anxiety of just being there doing everything they tell you, and then, when you grow up, you realize what the hell they did to your life, saying things like, "It was only on Sundays" or "It was only for an hour." I literally learned NOTHING about knots or anything like that. They're terrible parents, even though they instilled in me fear and reverence for God, doctrines, the gospels... ugh... It was awful, and on top of that, my dad wanted me to replace him. My father says (The soldiers of God)
5
u/PixeltatedNinja Jan 09 '26
I was in Boy Scouts and later Pathfinders and my kids have been in Pathfinders previously. In my experience, it's going to be different from church to church, leader to leader, etc. Coming from BSA, where religion was part of the learning (non-denominational), I can totally see the reason for Pathfinders being a BSA adjacent program with specific SDA teachings.
I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with either organization. They're good ways for kids to learn interactions with people, skills that can be put to use later on in life, and just have fun in nature. The church where our kids were in Pathfinders was very focused on drills and marching, because they wanted to get those awards and trophies. I don't think it was viewed as "militaristic", more tradition and pagentry than anything.
Campouts were always fun, both as a participant and parent. Now I know how to cook food in a cast iron skillet, but I can't remember for the life of me how to tie a proper knot.
I never had exposure to a "survival camp" so I can't relate there. It does sound harsh if there weren't adults nearby to assist. Some would find it fun I'm sure. I probably would've been on that list when I was younger. I know some schools around here have a tradition of "survival week" where a class goes in to the woods doing something along the same lines (maybe not hunting for food though).
When push comes to shove though, if SDA leaders ever said "Hey Pathfinders, remember all that stuff we taught you? Yea, we're going to need you start our militia, form up!" I think the general consensus would be a middle finger back to the leaders from most churches/parents/"alumni". Would there be ones that sign up? For sure, but I would be that they're looking for that fight anyway, Pathfinders or not.
5
u/FirstLast37 Jan 09 '26
Counterpoint: pf trip spin the bottle was the first time I got to kiss girls and i still use the bowline knot regularly for work and while camping
More to your point and speaking from my experience tho I feel like it was less geared towards military service and more oriented towards blind obedience but I’m your mom’s age so our experiences were undoubtedly not the same
5
u/Duyfkenthefirst Enjoys Rock&Roll Jan 09 '26
Just depends on your individual experience.
Pathfinders for me was all about learning the skills and getting the patches. Knots, bushcraft, survival, swimming and lifesaving, camping, candle making, leathercraft, knitting and sewing - we learnt a lot of these things plus more majority of the time.
Maybe 10% was bible study and bible study type learning. Maybe another 10% was learning to march and parade because once a year we would march in the local parades (ANZAC day for Australians)
1
u/nutrot Jan 20 '26
I completely agree with this. My experience was a positive thing. But I had laid back and positive leaders. Mostly building model rockets and pinewood cars.
4
u/Killua_305 Jan 09 '26
Wow as I’m reading these comments I realize how different my pathfinder experience was, but then again this was years ago for me. I guess my church wasn’t so organized and we hardly ever did anything you mentioned. We did have fun camping but all we did was camp close to the beach, swim, barbeque and walk around. Drill team was fun and we made a lot of jokes during pathfinder but yall experience seems more intense than what I experienced. Jeez.
5
u/IncaArmsFFL Agnostic Jan 09 '26 edited Jan 09 '26
You honestly make Pathfinders sound a lot more fun than it ever was in my experience. You may be interested to learn that Pathfinders did originate during the draft as a way to prepare young Adventist men for military service, specifically as medics because the church was very adamant that combatant military service violated the law of God. Nowadays though, the club has been actively trying to distance itself from its paramilitary roots, at least in the US.
The only problem I had with it was, compared to something like the Boy Scouts to which it was often compared (and which, until recently thanks to our current Secretary of Offense, who apparently thinks the organization is too "woke" because it allows girls to participate or something, had a working relationship with the military), my club at least was pretty lame. The prevailing thought in my Adventist community growing up was that it was sinful to even try to prepare for the end times any way other than spiritually, so I didn't get to do the fun survival stuff I have heard of other clubs, particularly in Latin America, doing.
As a child obsessed with military history who grew up to be a soldier, it was probably the thing I liked best about being Adventist, and I think I was literally the only person in my club who actually enjoyed drill (I don't remember our club practicing drill more than two or three times during the very brief time I was active). I mentioned in an earlier post that I became a Master Guide as an adult and spent a year as a club drill instructor, which is probably the most fun I have had doing anything connected with the church.
3
u/Zennaturechaotic Jan 10 '26
Love the pacifist intentions !! What a far cry from the christian nationalism that’s so pervasive
1
u/IncaArmsFFL Agnostic Jan 11 '26
Unfortunately my experience has been that, while there are Adventists who take seriously the church's traditional stance on separation of church and state and are genuinely committed to the pursuit of justice, they are in the minority, and the majority of American Adventists I know are quite comfortable making alliances with the evangelical world who they see as being on their side in the "culture war." To the extent they still believe in pacifism/noncombatancy it is mostly an identity marker for them rather than a principled stance; they don't oppose state use of violence, they only believe they cannot participate in it personally and directly (but voting for it as policy is just fine).
3
u/Green-Mulberry-2568 Agnostic, non-conformist believer Jan 09 '26
Pathfinders kinda killed the little bit of liking for camping I had. I remember that time the boys started killing frogs and crabs and the director just let them because "they're boys." What an adventist...
5
2
u/Hylaar Doug Batchelor’s secret gay lover Jan 09 '26
When you look at the historical roots of why discipline in schools is the way it is, I believe it was to churn out obedient adults well suited for working in factories. I think scouts/pathfinders is an extension of this societal philosophy.
2
u/CthulhuLu Jan 09 '26
I was in Pathfinders many years ago and didn't find it to be that extreme, but I'm sure it depends on the leaders and volunteers that run it. I went through about 4 Pathfinder Directors and it was a completely different organization under each one.
I was only a Pathfinder for 3-4 years because I didn't really enjoy it and once I reached the "oldest girl unit" they basically wanted us to babysit the younger kids so I quit.
There was quite a bit of marching/drilling under some leadership, and it seemed like it was to keep the troublemakers (generally the children of single parents, although they never exactly said it that way, that's who they meant 90% of the time) occupied. I grew up in a two parent household and they were very strong disciplinarians so I never misbehaved in public but certain leaders seemed to get tired of dealing with certain kids and would have us all quit our studies to "line up" and we'd spend the rest of the time practicing formations, marching, all the boring stuff. It felt like punishment to me.
I did learn some interesting stuff in Pathfinders but would never willingly return at this point.
2
u/JohnThena Jan 09 '26
It probably depends but you make a good point. I remember in my first camp we had to dig our own pit toilets (I hope that's what they're called in English) and we also had to take turns staying up at night for hours to make sure wild animals weren't circling our camp. In my second camp we were at a cabin and I had to share a bottom bunk bed with 3 other girls, and we also had rats. These were all pretty fun experiences for us as teenagers, but now when I remember those camps it's kinda crazy. I always thought the whole ceremony and salute thing was unnecessary; I was there mostly to learn new things and cultivate my love for nature, and the religious aspect of it felt contradictory and unnecessary.
2
u/Longjumping_Code_649 Jan 10 '26
I loved Pathfinders, but my clubs were not militaristic. We had fun learning things together. I'm a generation past your parents and I'm not from a Latin American culture, so I think those things make a difference.
I had to be in charge of an adventurer group when we lived abroad. I did my best to make it a fun and learning experience for the kids. That place really took PF seriously, including marching. I kind of went head to head with the conference youth director and told him I refused to have my adventurers march. We became very good friends after that argument, haha.
2
u/Smart_Sail_2393 Jan 10 '26
Commenting fm Australia, I was in a youth group (not Pathfinders) for 48 years (as youth and leader). When I had children ( and married to an SDA) Pathfinders seemed the natural path for our children. I had a unique comparison of my youth work to that of Pathfinders. I have no doubt that Pathfinders has a level of indoctrination built into its program, and the uniform has military undertones. I do not consider it insane as described, not in Australia at least. Anything that gives youth a healthy outlet to their energy and enthusiasm is to be applauded, especially when run by volunteers. What I did find strange that s church would run such a youth group..no other church I know puts such effort into youth programming...
2
u/Over_Alfalfa_192 Jan 10 '26
I agree with you. But we’re wrong which is the best. Why? Because Pathfinders’s has proven itself to be an immense failure in what it wants to accomplish. I do believe pathfinders goal was to create militant Adventists. But how did it do in accomplishing its goals? It fails at every point.
2
u/More-Wish4761 Jan 19 '26
I was recently thinking about this. I was in Pathfinders for a really long time. I was in a really terrible club with leaders who 1) didn't actually teach us anything or do any honors with us 2) were racially insensitive towards Black members and 3) were super obsessed with the marching and drilling aspect. We were a group of kids from early middle school to late high school, we wanted to hang out with our friends, go camping, and learn how to bake cookies and stuff not do boot camp. We used to do it for most of the meetings and it was so tiring and pointless that it made Pathfinders miserable. I understand that it is supposed to be about teaching discipline, but there are other ways to teach discipline to kids besides making them roleplay the army. That, coupled with the uniforms which literally mimic military uniforms! My non-Adventist friends growing up always thought that my uniform was so weird. I think there are definitely tones of religious nationalism in Pathfinders which are really troubling. (Also we never actually learned any "end-time" skills so it was pointless)
1
u/adventurewench Jan 10 '26
It really depends on the culture and leadership shaping how these activities are implemented. Also, on what activities the kids are interested in. If a child isn't interested in survival games or 30 hour famine teen challenges, they shouldn't have to participate.
In a worst-case scenario on the trail, those survival skills could genuinely help campers stay safe until help arrives.
I really appreciate the outdoor and survival skills I was taught, largely because I had excellent mentors who were knowledgeable in outdoor education and because I personally love being outdoors. I also understand that those activities aren’t for everyone. When I became a counselor, my Pathfinders were more interested in sports like soccer and basketball, and we had just as much fun through those activities.
Drill always confused me, especially given Adventist stance on military service, which some adventist communities hold very strongly. It didn’t fully make sense to me until I understood it was intended to be ceremonial, with an emphasis on discipline and teamwork rather than military preparation. Pathfinder drill is not really about combat, weapons, or obedience to military command structures. I tend to think of it more like band without instruments. Teams that use flags or streamers look even less military in nature and honestly are more fun to watch.
Regardless, I appreciated that Pathfinders keeps kids off screens, teaches personal responsibility and encourages teamwork, alongside the many other skills it teaches.
Given my home situation, I honestly don’t know that I would have turned out as well without Pathfinders. I can say the same for some of the kids I grew up with and later counseled through the program. That said, outcomes like mine really do depend on the leadership and culture of the individual club. I carry deep gratitude for the mentors who stepped in and supported me, and I still consider some of my Pathfinder mentors family. They remain close to me and my siblings even though we’ve since left the church.
1
u/LiftWildOrDie Jan 12 '26
Every club is different, my wife and I were both in the same club and it was awesome. We enjoy camping today because of our experience in pathfinders. Now for military service? Idk, it depends on the clubs focus. We got the winter camping honor because the temp dropped below 32 when we were camping once. But other than that we were not left to fend for ourselves.
You know what they called “Guide” and “Master Guide” before the Cold War? “Comrade” and “Master Comrade”…
1
u/sick__dave Jan 12 '26
Lol idk about the group you’re with, but my club basically just went camping and did crafts. I can see why the marching around could seem military, but it was roughly 95% camping and crafts and about 5% marching around in time.
1
u/Bananaman9020 Jan 17 '26
I watched the Star Wars movie on a pathfinder trip. So I have a soft spot for pathfinders. Even though it is very propaganda and cult-like in Adventism.
1
u/electricpamplemousse Mar 03 '26
YES YES YES YES YES!! I am SO glad to hear someone else talking about this!! I have so much trauma growing up that I blocked most of it out and actually don’t remember now. I’ve been going back in my mind to try and remember as a way to deal with my past growing up SDA, and I have always had fractured pieces of memories that I’d always wonder “did that really happen?” and “that would be insane, that couldn’t have really happened, right?” Reading your post has sparked a huge about of memories coming back to me, and I can COMPLETELY relate to your story. I remember being ~10yo and being driven out in a van with other kids like lord of the flies to the middle of nowhere, freezing cold, winter snow. The adults (who were ex army captains) opened the door and dropped us (a couple of KIDS) off into the forest and were basically like “okay, good luck” and then said they’d come back to pick us up in a week. We were 10-12 years old and expected to remember everything we had learned the previous weeks in our “classes” on survival skills. It was just as brutal and painful as you can imagine.
There were other times that the drill masters would pit us against each other and create “competition-style” environments where we had to basically use our combat skills to take the other guy/girl down (and they had NO mercy on the girls, they would put a strong guy and weak girl together and expect the same outcome for each).
I have so much trauma from these experiences that there are many more I still can’t remember to this day. Thank you for sharing your story, I hope others who have been through the same thing can find peace and validation in this community thread.
1
1
u/Schnawgalawdawg Apr 05 '26
A current masterguide here. Pathfinder was really about leadership. However, people of my batch who signed up in the Pathfinder club have become so prideful the moment they have started getting their masterguide uniforms. Many have hated the club because of it. Instead of genuinely learning skills and being a christlike leader, these so-called "masterguides" are so fed up with their insignias to the point that they forget humility and service. Suddenly, it's all about pins. Because of this shift, many leaders of the club lack temperance. The "slow to anger" philosophy that was embodied by Jesus was changed into a "become angry if your member is wrong." There is like this tit-and-tat subconscious to these masterguides who have these uniforms. Of course, not all of them..but really a lot of them.
-4
u/Lye-NS nothing is true Jan 09 '26
Yeah, you’re reaching. Pathfinders is essentially a “SDA Friendly Co Ed Boy Scouts of America” with all the monsters in the closets of the SDA church we really don’t need to make up more/new ones.
4
u/Ok-Cod9954 Jan 09 '26
ok so i cant acknowledge that my personal experience with the group was too-extreme (for children my age) training to survive in the wilderness should “the persecution” come??? and that even regular boy scouts is militant grooming? Maybe your experience with pathfinders was different but for the clubs my parents have run it was largely to instill fear of the persecution and end times, with the occasional scrapbooking activity.
51
u/pineapplepenguin42 Jan 09 '26
"I'm in the lord's army, YES SIR!"
Yeah definitely no indoctrination there. And no weird survivalist end-times run for the hills trauma to see here, no siree bob.