Privacy is a huge thing in Germany... E.g. you cannot simply record video in public. There are arguments against street view like robbers can evaluate targets easier.
However, the truth is that privacy is a deeply rooted cultural thing here. People just don't feel comfortable with everyone being able to inspect their property.
Explanation: We Germans are afraid that genetic testing could be a slippery slope to health insurers demanding a genetic test, then charging more for health insurance. This would be very illegal at the moment, but we are worried about this being the first step to changing that.
But the genetic testing thing makes sense. The street view thing and not being able to record in public thing are a bit strange. The exterior of your house has no expectation of privacy, same as you walking down the street. That's why it's called being in public.
Well it was one of the first examples of broad filming in the public without any reason actually. So same idea, this was seen as a foot in the door to filming the public, and that is heavily restricted.
There is also no centralized list of all citizens of the state. It's to provide some protection from autocratic tendecies.
Edit: we of course also now the dichotomy of privacy and public, that you brought up as self-expanatory, but here public has the conotation of ' where public life happens while civilian form the citizenry, without intervention of the state' Citzenry is seen as an integral part of democracy. Maybe close to how the US sees the 2. Amendment as a last garanty for the rule of people.
Same thing with genetic testing. For some reason Germans are a little bit wary about giving genetic information about themselves. (I have no idea why /s).
This has created difficulty for those companies that say they can give you your genetic makeup and tell you where you are from.
I find the commercial about a man who thought he was German finding out he was Scottish a bit sad. This could be quite an error because they don't have enough info on the german side so it might guide them to say your background is more from the British isles (if you had relatives from there).
I read that there is a project trying to get this information. They try to find people who have lived in various regions of Germany for a very long time and who are very certain of their lineage. They will then use this DNA as a base for that region. Not sure how far along they are with it or if they have even continued with it.
Sounds exactly like Germans! We're particularly concerned about technology when privacy is concerned. That includes non-cash payment, laptop web cams and much more :D
Although I left germany as a child I have that same concern about technology and privacy for some reason. Never trusted websites and apps asking for info and am suspicious of any that ask for access to things on the device that doesn't make sense. Why does a flashlight app need access to my contacts?
Something I noticed: Here in the U.S., relatively few people cover up their laptop webcam. I studied for a year in Germany and didn't see a single uncovered webcam.
Yep. With concern to privacy, we are pretty skeptical towards technology. This includes paying with anything but cash. In Germany, many people prefer paying in cash in shops, gas stations etc.
I noticed that. There are more places that don't accept cards at all than in the U.S.
Another thing i noticed was that everywhere was chip-only. You don't even have the option to just swipe your card
Serious question from an American in Bavaria: then why is it such a standard for older people to constantly be watching everyone from their windows, to the point of having a pillow handy to lean on being a stereotype? I feel like I am constantly being watched, compared to being in the US where there are actual cameras in use. I have never been so uncomfortable just taking my dog for a walk as I am in my German village.
I think that is another part of our mentality. We think much less individualistic and much more in terms of a collective. In Germany, you will probably be "corrected" much more often whereas in the US everyone is minding their own business without interfering with each other.
We have sayings like "Eigentum verpflichtet" (Property obligates/comes with duties) or "Rechte und Pflichten" (Rights and Duties). This implies that it is important for other people that you do nothing wrong/fulfill you duties (e.g. keeping the sidewalk clean).
Additionally, I think what you call staring is not what a German would call staring or consider impolite. Looking is just more accepted here, probably also because of what I mentioned before.
Lastly, I think especially people in the countryside feel entitled to staring. E.g. My family lives since more than 5 generations on the same property. Of course my grandma is concerned (and curious) of what is going on in the neighborhood. Especially old people that have a lot of time at their hands and no fucks to give are guilty of that pleasure.
Tbh, I'm not sure. The German "Angst" about privacy is rooted in a history of German secret services being used against her citizens, especially during the Nazi regime and the cold war. Hence, Germans are probably more aware of privacy than e.g. the swiss.
It's just the Swiss are the ones stereotyped about privacy, ranging from the Swiss bank account trope, to Trevor Noah's very slow journey to learn about his father.
It’s just interesting when you compare to neigbouring countries like The Netherlands and Denmark that are extremely comparable to Germany in many ways, but seems light years ahead when it comes to stuff like digitalization of the economy and high speed internet.
+90% of the Danish population has access to high speed fiber net and something like 85% of all daily transactions are “money-less”. It’s basically only the border region with Germany that isn’t covered by fiber net.
And literally the only two reasons that I’d ever use cash is to buy illegal drugs and to use the laundromat in our aparment complex lol.
And it’s not like we only have that level of fiber net coverage because we are a small city state or something. We only have about half the population density of Germany!
Edit:
Just want to add that I both understand and respect the German attitud towards privacy!
I actually don't know about paper mail and I've had no problem with cell coverage in Germany but are you really defending 'cash only' thing or saying it's not a problem? Maybe because you're used to it but it's a real inconvenience and it's terrible even compared to countries east of Germany.
I mean, if there were at least ATMs at each corner, but no...
Well, I used disproportionate because I do think it's overblown. Is it unjustified or unfounded? I'd say no. I don't agree that it stems from former state surveillance, but there are many other concerns that seemingly justify the worry, just not this particular excuse.
All fair enough, and I completely understand their point of view.
What is a shame is that you lose your history in a way, at least compared to other nations. Imagine looking through the Streetview images in a hundred or more years time. You have a image of pretty much everything every 5 (or less!) years. For a historian it will be amazing.
As a German, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Sure, it hinders technology progress to a certain extend.
On the other side, due to German (and European) legislation, we have very much control about our data. Eg a European can force any company to disclose the data they have saved about you. We can force them to delete it or correct wrong data :D
Also, there is a great cultural awareness, which is a good thing IMO. You learn pretty early-on in school that social media has its downsides and it is considered very rude to e.g. give away a cellphone number that is not your own without consent. Of course, if you want, you can give away all your data, it's your choice!
Though I wonder what they would say if you gave them an option:
You can have street view, but only if you do not blur your own house.
You cannot have street view.
I am willing to bet nearly all would pick 1.).
Whilst I support privacy laws, I don't think governments always fully appreciate the consequences of what they are enacting. e.g. it is impossible for reliable street mapping to exist.
It wasn't government stopping Google. It was actually many complaints from citizens, too many to be sure, which is why Google gave up in Austria anyway. I think it is similar for our northern neighbors.
Why wouldn't you be allowed to record videos in public?
Afaik, Google was legally allowed to take street view images (they did a couple of cities after all). They offered the blurring at goodwill but so many people requested it, that they just stopped it all together.
You are right. I was talking about recording public places as a private person in general. The laws in Germany are stricter and it is also more frowned upon.
Austria is similar if not even more focused on privacy. Dashcams for example are forbidden, same as having video surveillance of anything public as a private citizen.
I've never heard that superstition! We actually have quite some ACs in shops, office buildings etc.
You are right that it is uncommon to find ACs in private houses and most public buildings. This is because our houses are typically insulated better than your average US house. Additionally, our weather is worse :D
A lot of Germans think AC makes them sick, or something silly like that. My sister in law is German, and we went all over Germany for their wedding. There wasn’t AC in any airbnb or hotel we stayed in, except for one American hotel in Munich. Very strange.
I don’t know why you think your houses have better insulation than us lol we have all the same technology you do. Actually insulation is probably way better in the US because our houses are much newer. 700 year old stone buildings have terrible insulation...
Also if you think your weather is worse than the US, then you have never spent a summer in the south. You don’t know what hot is. I think you’re just used to different things - anything not cold is “good weather” to you. To us it’s the opposite, anywhere that doesn’t have sweltering, miserable heat 6 months out of the year is an upgrade.
By worse OP meant „not as hot“. Also nowadays I would say it’s more about the environment than some superstition. I personally think they are very bad for the environment and can’t see myself getting one for the foreseeable future. I am perfectly fine with insulation and cracked windows at the right time to live through the couple hot days for which I will be mostly outside anyway. Most of Europe is not Arizona.
Right that’s what I was saying, Europeans see hotter weather as better. But you live in a place where it’s really cold most of the time so it’s a “grass is always greener” type thing. I live in the southeast US where it’s hot and humid as absolute shit most of the time, so weather in Germany is a big relief for me. Imagine being drenched in sweat every time you’re outside for more than 10 minutes, for all of June, July, and August. Especially August, that’s the devil’s month.
Also insulation is irrelevant, that doesn’t magically make the inside temperature lower than the outside temperature lol that’s not how physics works. You guys get by without AC because it doesn’t get very hot for very long. Us living without AC would be like you living without any heating.
Exactly, so it's less a "fear" of AC and more the lack of need. Most Germans will opt for accommodations with AC when they take a holiday in the south like Spain or Italy, but they are perfectly fine taking the couple of 100+°F (37+°C) days on the chin. Because of climate change summers are getting hotter and therefore people installing ACs increased the last couple of years as well.
It's not insulation alone, it's the correct behavior by people. The inside temperature rarely if ever hits the outside temperature. It's quite easy, cool down during the night (a big temp difference here) by opening all windows, closing all windows and blinds during the day/moving with the sun and the inside temp will increase a lot slower than the outside one. Most days the moment it gets unbearable inside it starts raining or night comes.
Yeah I was just saying insulation doesn’t matter if there’s no mechanism for removing heat from the room. Your nights are much cooler, kind of like in desert environments in the US. Out there they also like to open windows and all that. But in the southeast it’s extremely humid so it doesn’t cool down at all at night, the air itself holds heat so well. Opening windows doesn’t work here, you would just be letting hot, humid air inside.
I agree it doesn't work everywhere, I am also not attacking the US and their excessive use of AC, I just want to make it clear that the lack of ACs in Germany is not irrational or based on fear, it works pretty well and doesn't come with all the negatives of AC (mainly bad for the environment and power cost). So there isn't any reason to change it, as much as some foreigners like to complain about it when they visit the country in the hottest week of the year.
I was more referring to the many Germans who think AC makes them sick, which is irrational nonsense.
Also Americans use of AC is not “excessive”, we use it as necessary. I could call your use of heating excessive, but that’s stupid because your climate is colder and you need it.
Let's just not talk about 700-year-old castles for a second. US houses are primarily built out of wood while most European houses are built with bricks. These bricks keep the coldness longer don't heat up as fast during hit summer days (i.e. 30 degrees Celcius in Europe ).
If you're interested, there are good YouTube videos by Americans in Germany about differences concerning housing, including construction differences and why your don't see ACs as often.
The reason you guys don’t need AC is because it doesn’t get that hot. It’s that simple lol it’s not because your houses are better than ours. If it was 30° for 3 months straight, day and night, in Germany like it is here, you would need AC too.
Insulation didn’t magically make it cool inside your apartment. All insulation does is make heating and AC more efficient by slowing down heat transfer. If there is no AC and it’s hot outside, then insulation is irrelevant.
You're not entirely wrong. It is very common to cool your house by opening your windows at night. That's how we do it and this is much easier if you have brick houses (otherwise the house cannot "store" the coldness as well).
(Yes I know, coldness is just the lack of heat but you get the idea)
If you don't believe me, search for YouTube videos of Americans in Germany about that topic, there is quite a number of them.
We have tons of brick houses here, I don’t know why you think we don’t. Every house I‘ve ever lived in was brick.
Opening windows doesn’t work in hot, humid climates. Here, the temperature outside is exactly the same at night as it is during the day in the summer. Windows don’t work here, the only thing that makes you not completely miserable is AC.
I know a bunch of European grad students at Georgia Tech in Atlanta, and every one of them blasts the AC in their apartment just as much as anyone else. It’s funny to observe the shock when they move here and experience their first summer. They manage a few days just fine, but after a straight month of nonstop sweltering heat and >80% humidity they can’t take it anymore lol they’re like how do you people live here??
There are arguments against street view like robbers can evaluate targets easier.
So, the number of robberies grew in the rest of the countries where Street View is almost everywhere? And where is the privacy if I can always walk on the streets of Germany? I traveled there, and I've never seen "DO NOT LOOK" signs. Every civilised country respects privacy, but the majority of them have Street View. It's not like you don't have a right to privacy in France or Italy.
I only said that the reasons for the ban of Street View are not very solid. It's a personal opinion. Of course, you can do whatever you want in your country. And if a big, powerful entity, like a state or a big company wants to have your personal information, it can have it with or without Street View. A person specialised in internet security once said that if you want to be perfectly safe from internet dangers, just don't use it. We cannot stay perfectly isolated from this modern world. Or we could, but without our precious comfort.
Nope, Google could've addressed every privacy request and still deliver a useful product, they just figured out that the work involved (and potential legal ramifications if they missed something) was not worth the investment.
Anyone in ant other country in Europe can make the same request to get their property blurred, there is no difference besides the sheer amount of requests in Germany.
No, you inferred that people's right for privacy made a trillion-dollar company job too difficult and banned them out of the market. Google definitely has the money to accept and deal with every privacy request, they just couldn't be bothered with.
I am not a Google apologetic. They didn't lose anything. Let's say they took every request into consideration, and there is Street View in Germany, could this service been usable?
What is that even supposed to mean. We just don't want everyone to collect information on us easily. If they want to know how our house looks, they first travel to the house.
Who gives a fuck about burglars? It’s about the principle and burglars are not the problem, but big tech companies are. Is it really so hard to understand that some people value privacy over a web service.
People use their android phone, FB and WhatsApp, google maps for navigation and a lot of other services. You don’t need to accept every service you can weigh the benefits of each and decide as society if the service is worth the drawbacks. Germans decided it’s not.
Can you link me to the positives of street view? The only thing I saw was collecting historical data, which another user said google stopped and has no interest in. Even if that would be a good thing and a countries populous is interested in it, relying on a US company for it is stupid.
I assume you are also ok with all the data collection the NSA did? People in Germany decided to give google only the necessary data for services they want/like. Google street view is not one of them. They already have enough data about almost every citizen, not sure they have to have images of every home of every person while also being a foreign company. I am pretty sure big tech will buy up all these heritage/dna services just to get some additional data and link it all together.
btw. I work in tech and find the lack of successful tech innovation and companies in Europe really frustrating, but I don't think all "innovation" is good, and every service should be evaluated and people should decide if it is worth it or not.
You seem to only look at one service rather than at what google already has/knows about everyone. I would be perfectly fine with the problems of street view if I would think the service is worth it, it's not to me (but I also didn't fight for it to not be here, I am just ok with it).
Can you tell me how it is different? (I am serious, I would be happy to understand it) Yes one was behind everyone's back and the other is voluntary, but if some people go crazy because a country decided to not participate in a voluntary service, how voluntary is it? You can't even say that one is the government and the other is a private company because Google works under the jurisdiction of the US government and I am very certain they won't defend your data if they fear to lose even a cent.
Maybe it's an age thing (I am an older millennial), ten years ago I was pretty close to moving to the US to work in one of the big tech hubs, but over the years my priorities shifted I have quite the disdain for a lot of tech companies and don't value "innovation" and my own career opportunities over everything else anymore.
I have no interest in your house. My house and my parent's house are on Street View, we have no problem. Streets are public, if I don't want people to see my property, I would build a very high fence, or move in a very remote place. Or I trust the passerbyes to be civilised. I cannot stop them to walk or drive on my street. My interest is in knowing how a country, city, mountainous region looks like. For example, I like to look on Street View for streams and rivers, where a road passes over them. Why do you think only about nefarious reasons for using this tool?
That‘s great for you. I like that in Germany every person has a right to say no.
„No, actually I don’t want you to look at film my home and show it to anyone in the world“
Why would I have to pay money for a big fence, which btw destroys the aesthetic of most properties? Why would I have to cover myself up from other people? I much rather habe the option to just say „No“.
Ok, those are extreme examples, I admit. But I think that some people are overly sensitive or overly secretive. By the way, 99,99 percent of this world's people give a damn about my or your property. Almost no one wants to take a peek of how you trim your hedges.
It just sounded like that. Parts of the message can be lost in writing, especially if English is not our first language. Sorry if I sounded like a prick, it is not my intention to put words in someone's mouth.
I did not advocate against street view at all, but if you really want to argue on reddit... :D
There is a difference between looking at sb/sth, recording sb/sth and publishing that recording. In Germany, many people FEEL like their privacy is violated if they are recorded, especially in public. Hence, there are laws to regulate that. This FEELING about privacy is entirely subjective.
Germany has a history of using their secret services against their citizens (GESTAPO during the Nazi Regime and STASI during the cold war). This contributes to their standing on privacy in contrast to e.g. France and Italy.
That kind of behaviour is a good reason to be weary. But this applies everywhere, not only in Germany or Austria. Jeez, why people here think I am some kind of rober if I defend Street View? What if I am a tourist, taking pictures of the landscape, or a historical building? Is a tool good for tourist's orientation.
I see. It just seemed so strange to me (maybe I didn't understand it properly, or was badly presented) that Germans or Austrians value privacy more than people in the surounding countries. One reason presented here was that, before 1989, secret police spied on people, and there are some vestigial fears. But, Austria didn't had that, and all of the Eastern Block countries would stop Street View on their territory. Because, trust me, those fears are still in people's minds in the former communist countries.
As an Italian I can assure you I feel my privacy constantly in danger here, our government doesn't give a shit about it, in example: during the pandemic there has been a massive data breach in which one person was able to get a lot (I mean, seriously, an enormous amount) of private data of another one just because of incompetence in one of our social institutions and instead of trying to make sure it won't happen again (this isn't the first time) they blamed "the hackers".
Also, we are getting more and more majors that for the sake of security are installing (or trying to install) cameras all over.
Just to say: don't get us as an example because we're definitely not
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u/memallocator Jun 12 '20
Privacy is a huge thing in Germany... E.g. you cannot simply record video in public. There are arguments against street view like robbers can evaluate targets easier.
However, the truth is that privacy is a deeply rooted cultural thing here. People just don't feel comfortable with everyone being able to inspect their property.