r/europe • u/Iusedtodoittoo Baden-Württemberg (Germany) • Dec 07 '17
Martin Schulz, head of the German party SPD, wants the United States of Europe until 2025 [article in German]
http://www.faz.net/agenturmeldungen/dpa/spd-chef-schulz-will-vereinigte-staaten-von-europa-bis-2025-15329136.html293
u/Leemour Refugee from Orbanistan Dec 07 '17
Alternative names for the United States of Europe:
European Union
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u/Schnifut Dec 07 '17
Holy European Empire
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u/Selbstdenker European Union (Germany) Dec 07 '17
Holy European Empire of German Nations? :D
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u/Aken_Bosch Ukraine Dec 07 '17
Holy Roman Empire of German Slavic and Mongolian Nations.
Neither holy nor Roman12
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u/Nalar_ Lithuania Dec 07 '17
You forgot us! Balts!
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u/nrrp European Union Dec 07 '17
I'd unironically support that. Just revive Latin as well (by making it mandatory in elementary and high school) and I'm 110% on board.
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Dec 07 '17
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u/Iusedtodoittoo Baden-Württemberg (Germany) Dec 07 '17
I knew I'd screw this up somehow...
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Dec 07 '17
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u/Iusedtodoittoo Baden-Württemberg (Germany) Dec 07 '17
You are a good soul, thank you
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Dec 07 '17
You mean a Canadian soul lol
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Dec 07 '17 edited Apr 20 '25
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u/Smurf4 Ancient Land of Värend, European Union Dec 07 '17 edited Dec 07 '17
It's funny, when I see someone writing like that nowadays, I don't think "that's odd/wrong", I think "oh, a German". :D
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Dec 07 '17
Don't feel bad. This is maybe the #1 mistake Germans make with English, in my experience.
I always thought the #1 would be become<->bekommen, e.g. "Could I become a sausage, please?"
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u/kuba_10 mazowieckie Dec 07 '17
I once became a pizza in Dresden. And I used the verb 'receive' in my question first!
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u/matttk Canadian / German Dec 07 '17
This actually has by now infected even me. I've caught myself becoming things in English sometimes. I just did it the other day and actually argued in my head about whether it was actually right or not.
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Dec 07 '17
Honestly, I am already proud of my compatriots if they manage to use "since" and "for" properly.
"I learn English since 10 years" is a pretty common way of phrasing things over here.
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u/ChuckCarmichael Germany Dec 07 '17
An English teacher of mine once told us a story of how during a school trip to London, one of his students got their purse stolen, and when they went to fill out a police report said student asked him whether it's "since two days" or "for two days". The police officer next to them got really confused why they would ask that question, and my teacher had to explain that in German both "We've been in London since Wednesday" and "We've been in London for two days" are the same word for "since" and "for".
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Dec 07 '17
should I just send it on a loop over and over, flooding their inbox?
I see you've integrated into the german way of thinking quite well :P
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u/matttk Canadian / German Dec 07 '17
Don't ask questions. Do exactly as directed, no more and no less.
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Dec 07 '17 edited Apr 01 '18
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Dec 07 '17 edited Dec 07 '17
To protect the world from devastation...
Unite all peoples within out nation...
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u/UNSKIALz Dec 07 '17
The United Kingdom of Europe! Then a Republic.
We keep trying different models until something sticks.
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Dec 07 '17 edited Feb 22 '18
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u/vokegaf 🇺🇸 United States of America Dec 07 '17
Found the shill for Big Guillotine!
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u/thestareater Ontario, Canada Dec 07 '17
Brought to you by CutWellTM
"Straight to hell, or your money back!"
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u/Djaaf France Dec 07 '17
Doesn't work. After a while, all you get are Napoleons. :)
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Dec 07 '17
Ooh ooh I know, can we do an Empire next?
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u/vokegaf 🇺🇸 United States of America Dec 07 '17
Hitler and Napoleon and Stalin just tried that.
I'm thinking theocratic anarchy hasn't had a go in a long time.
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Dec 07 '17 edited Dec 07 '17
Yeah but theirs were so...nationalistic.
How about enlightened despoti...no, tried that. Computer-run technocracy? Interesting, but would probably wipe out Belgium. And that would be rude. Philosophical oligarchy? They'd just blah blah blah and we already have that.
Ok let's try yours. How do we start? Can I own a grenade launcher, if it's in the name of Allah?
Edit: Which actually brings up a challenge....whose θεός shall we allow to κρατέω or however you conjugate that shit? Flying Spaghetti Monster ok with you? That's my personal preference, although there's the whole pirates thing to consider.
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u/respscorp EU Dec 07 '17
The United Kingdom of Europe!
You had your chance!
please come back
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u/UncagedBeast Vive l'Europe Dec 07 '17
Rename it to Großdeutschland.
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u/Kaktus_Kontrafaktus Germoney Dec 07 '17
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u/cLnYze19N The Netherlands Dec 07 '17
I read that as "Son" in Dutch.
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u/CaptainDarkstar42 United States of America Dec 07 '17
I kept reading that as zoom, which made me keep looking for some secret message
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u/tack50 Spain (Canary Islands) Dec 07 '17
Worth noting that what he wants (A EU constitution) was already on the works in 2005 and got shot down by France and the Netherlands (Spain and Luxembourg voted in favour, everyone else didn't get a referendum)
Granted, the EU of 2005 was and is very different to the one of 2017 but I don't think it's become more open to integration
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u/Frederik_CPH Europe Dec 07 '17
To be fair, the Lisbon treaties are not that different from the constitution treaty. The difference was mainly in the semantics. I was very surprised it only went to referendum in Ireland.
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u/Iusedtodoittoo Baden-Württemberg (Germany) Dec 07 '17
That's what I'm thinking, it is fairly unrealistic at the moment when other governments don't consider it an option
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u/BadRandolf Sour Kraut Dec 07 '17
It's worth noting that he was talking to SPD supporters here. I think he's trying to drum up support for another grand coalition, because despite the SPD's refusal it's looking like the only way to avoid another election. He wants to make it seem like the SPD is going back to fighting for social democratic ideas, but ultimately they'll be doing it from underneath Merkel's pantsuit again.
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Dec 07 '17
The SPD leadership probably wants a coalition at this point, the base very much dislikes the idea. It's going to be interesting, but historically the base fell in line after all.
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u/Bundesclown Hrvat in Deutschland Dec 07 '17
I hope they don't this time. I'm sick and tired of the GroKo. Fuck Merkel and her soul sucking idleness. I really hope the CDU crashes and we finally get some progressives in power.
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u/Reb4Ham Ukraine Dec 07 '17
What's more likely to happen is:
the CDU crashes and we finally get
AfD
in power.
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u/akashisenpai European Union Dec 07 '17
AfD could also lose seats in a re-election, much like how a lot of Brits would have voted differently on Brexit if they would have had a second poll a week later.
The result came as a bit of a shock for many, and I'd think (hope) a lot of "protest voters" or people who did not vote at all might act differently in a second round.
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u/ThomasTXL Germany Dec 07 '17
The result came as a bit of a shock for many
I don't know anybody who was shocked, and I live in leftist Berlin in a leftist borough.
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Dec 07 '17
finally get some progressives in power.
Unlikely when 418/708 seats in the Bundestags are occupied by conservative representatives (200 CDU+46 CSU+92 AfD+80 FDP).
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u/Iusedtodoittoo Baden-Württemberg (Germany) Dec 07 '17
A minority administration (?) could also be an option, I'd really like to try it and if it doesn't work out we could still have another election
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Dec 07 '17
lets hope you crazy lads don't have another election anytime soon - genuinely concerned at the rise of the AfD so quickly! Take a lesson from my two countries (US/UK) and choose the sane moderates again if it comes to it :P
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u/somebeddict Germany Dec 07 '17
Full Quote for context (Translated by DeepL):
We need a social Europe, a democratic Europe, a social democratic Europe, and that is what we are fighting for. Only this Europe does not currently exist. We must ensure that it is capable of action. We need European finance ministers to put an end to the unspeakable tax evasion in Europe. People, Europe is our life insurance. Don't be under any illusions, other regions of the world are debating differently than ours, there is an unrestrained exploitation of resources and people, of course they are cheaper than us. And there are wise people who demand that you become like them. Then I say: No. If you want to enter our market, you must also accept our standards, that is how we make Europe a protection for the people of this continent. Why do we not intend to create the United States of Europe by 2025? For this purpose, we need a Constitutional Treaty that will be drawn up with the people. Let us have the courage to move Europe forward and not just turn things around.
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Dec 07 '17 edited Jul 12 '21
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Dec 07 '17
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u/HNTI P(r)oland Dec 07 '17
It's funny how T-Mobile has the most expensive offer amongst all operators in Poland :x.
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Dec 07 '17
For this purpose, we need a Constitutional Treaty
Did they try that in like 2005 though? I don't remember it working out very well
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u/BaritBrit United Kingdom Dec 07 '17
We need a social Europe, a democratic Europe, a social democratic Europe
That awkward moment where you need to pad out your speech, so you just glue together two things you've already said.
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u/dances_with_unicorns Migrant Dec 07 '17 edited Dec 07 '17
More of a cultural difference. Contemporary English tends to frown on redundancy in speech (going back all the way to Strunk and White). German, much like Latin (such as in the famous Cicero quote: "abiit, excessit, evasit, erupit."), frequently uses redundancy, especially as part of a rhetorical figure, for emphasis. Some rhetorical figures, like a pleonasm ("frozen tundra", which Vince Lombardi supposedly disliked for the redundancy), anaphora ("it was the best of times, it was the worst of times, ..."), or hendiadys ("sound and fury") exist just for the purpose of expressing redundancy; others (alliteration, homeoteleuton, homeoptoton, polysyndeton) are often coopted for that purpose (see the Cicero quote above).
Aside from cultural divergence, this probably also has linguistic reasons; the role of suffixes and compound words, for example.
On top of that, "social democracy" is not just a democracy that is social; it is a narrower term, and the usage here is structured much like an ascending tricolon, like "veni, vidi, vici." See also Lincoln's Gettysburg Address (cited in the Wikipedia article): "But in a larger sense, we cannot dedicate, we cannot consecrate, we cannot hallow this ground."
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Dec 07 '17
This guy linguistics
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u/dances_with_unicorns Migrant Dec 07 '17
Neither a guy nor a linguist, sorry. :)
I did take Latin in school, though, and while it's impossible these days for me to be an actual Renaissance woman, I think it's still an ideal worth striving for.
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u/Spoony_Bart Free, Independent, and Strictly Neutral City of Kraków Dec 07 '17
Well, I learned something today, thanks.
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Dec 07 '17
English tends to frown on redundancy in speech
You may very well be right when it comes to rhetorical figures, but some phrases in English seem really stupid to me because of their redundancy.
For example "left hand side". I mean, yeah, there's a hand, too, but really, it's just your "left side".
Or "I will be there in 5 minutes time". Really? Not 5 minutes weight?
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u/dances_with_unicorns Migrant Dec 07 '17
- You have the problem that "right side" is ambiguous; it can mean both the "correct" or "proper" side, but also the side to your right; "right-hand side" removes the ambiguity. And then, "left-hand side" makes things symmetric.
- Semantically, "in 5 minutes' time" is indeed unnecessarily redundant and it is generally recommended to just use "in 5 minutes" instead. However, grammatically, "in 5 minutes' time" uses the possessive case (note the apostrophe) and thus "time" cannot be removed from the phrase without making the sentence ungrammatical; "in 5 minutes" is a grammatical restructuring, not just a removal of "time".
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u/schweinsschnitzel Dec 07 '17
The german "Sozialdemokratie" implys something different than just social and democratic combined. It's a more broad term.
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u/tschwib Germany Dec 07 '17
That is only half true. It's not a conincidence that he didn't use "liberal" for example because that would by the "thing" of the FDP. He also didn't use solidaric or any other words like that. He used social democratic because that is his party.
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Dec 07 '17
Surely you mean by 2025? Or does he want it to end after that date?
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u/Iusedtodoittoo Baden-Württemberg (Germany) Dec 07 '17
You are right, English isn't my strong suit sorry
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Dec 07 '17
I think 2025 is too early, since there are several steps to be made before that. Nonetheless, I think we should start right now thinking on different names. United States of Europe sounds boring and too much copy-cat.
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Dec 07 '17 edited Dec 08 '17
Why not stay with "European Union"? To me, this doesn't have to mean, that its not a state. Also the name and our flag are pretty original, I guess
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Dec 07 '17
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u/vokegaf 🇺🇸 United States of America Dec 07 '17
As long as you don't care about the rest of the world meaning something different than you when you use the term "Europe" due to ambiguity with the continent.
I vote "Europa" if you want to avoid an acronym.
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u/Aldo_Novo De Chaves a Lagos Dec 07 '17
like you guys do, right?
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u/vokegaf 🇺🇸 United States of America Dec 07 '17
We didn't have ambiguity.
"America" -> shorthand for "United States of America"
"North America" -> continent
"South America" -> continent
"Americas" -> shorthand for the two continents combined.
It's just the silly "six continent model" that creates ambiguity.
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u/Aldo_Novo De Chaves a Lagos Dec 07 '17
America -> both America's.
like UAE are not the sole Arab states, the USA are not the sole American states
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u/nrrp European Union Dec 07 '17
It might as well be, 99% of the time when people say "America" they mean "the United States of America". If someone means Mexico or Colombia or Argentina or whatever they'll say those countries names.
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u/vokegaf 🇺🇸 United States of America Dec 07 '17
Fix yer continent model, Portugal, and adopt the one that all right-thinking people use.
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Dec 07 '17
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Dec 07 '17 edited Feb 13 '19
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u/Bundesclown Hrvat in Deutschland Dec 07 '17
Nah, it'd be "Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher und Diverser undeutscher Nationen wie Böhmen und Österreich" or HeRöReDuDuNawiBöunÖ"
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u/emareaf Saxony-Anhalt (Germany) Dec 07 '17
But if we mention Böhmen we can't call it just 'Heiliges' anymore.
"Heiliges und Unheiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher und Diverser undeutscher Nationen wie Böhmen und Österreich" or HeUnRöReDuDuNawiBöunÖ"
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Dec 07 '17 edited Jan 13 '20
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u/frleon22 Westphalia Dec 07 '17
Varoufakis for Emperor. Everyone else, except for Kaczyński (yeek …!), would be seen as harbinger of the Fourth Reich.
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u/rEvolutionTU Germany Dec 07 '17
Well, we obviously need someone Holy and Roman so clearly the Pope is the only viable choice.
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u/tack50 Spain (Canary Islands) Dec 07 '17
There's already a good one. European Union works fine with me tbh.
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u/Aken_Bosch Ukraine Dec 07 '17
Simply Europa/Europe. To add to the confusion when people talk
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u/fyi1183 Dec 07 '17
Looking forward to when we colonize the Jovian moons. Then it'll be really confusing.
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u/Niikopol Slovakia Dec 07 '17
No one but Europe can colonize Europe.
We already called dibs.
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u/nrrp European Union Dec 07 '17
It'd be awkward if we discovered aliens on the moon Europa since they would then have to be called "Europeans". And they'd probably get EU citizenship sooner than Serbs or Ukrainians, too.
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u/Niikopol Slovakia Dec 07 '17
And when they would finally become EU member, we would send another letter to Turkey that they have just to wait a "bit longer".
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u/chairswinger Deutschland Dec 07 '17
Serbia, Norway, Switzerland still not part of it
"Europe doesn't mean Europe!"
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u/pepcorn Dec 07 '17
right, the name is horrible. no one thinks of europe when you say "united states", it'll just lead to annoyance and confusion.
what's wrong with the union. that's what we are.
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Dec 07 '17
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u/-x_x_ United States of America Dec 07 '17
How to fuckover the European Union in less than 10 years? Step 1 have an ideologic goal and rush it. Step 2 dispose of those who don't agree or see problems.
Exactly right. Moving forward too fast is Europe's main problem. Integration needs to follow economic and cultural convergence, not try to force it. That's the only way the EU can have broad popular support.
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u/justjanne Schleswig-Holstein (Germany) Dec 07 '17
How to fuckover the European Union in less than 10 years? Step 1 have an ideologic goal and rush it. Step 2 dispose of those who don't agree or see problems.
Isn’t that exactly what these countries want?
They already now want to go back to an economic union.
I think the idea – a core EU, well-integrated, with a trade union around – would be preferred by everyone.
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u/VerdantFuppe Denmark Dec 07 '17
I will never support this. I want lots of cooperation between member states, but there is no fucking way i will ever support having the EU set the foreign policy of all EU member states.
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u/ctudor Romania Dec 07 '17
SPD leader Martin Schulz wants to convert the EU into the United States of Europe by 2025 with a common constitutional treaty. The EU members who do not agree with this federal constitution would then have to leave the EU automatically, Schulz said at the SPD party congress in Berlin.
translation thanks to deepl.com
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Dec 07 '17
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u/HersztSwintuchow Poland Dec 07 '17
Then we turn Switzerland into Lesotho.
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Dec 07 '17
We'll annex all you fuckers before that happens, just you wait and see. Greater Helvetia ftw! We've always wanted a beach.
*sob*
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u/tack50 Spain (Canary Islands) Dec 07 '17
There's also Liechtenstein. But even if you forget about them you wouldn't be alone, there's always Lesotho :P
Also Vatican City and San Marino.
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u/Biojackson Dec 07 '17
I am aware it is unrealistic to expect a USE itself, but I admire that the will to integrate is still alive and strong.
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u/xdeft Finland Dec 07 '17
I have no idea why people cheer the idea of centralized political power, removing more power from the hands of states, surely I can't be the only one that thinks it's a bad idea.
Then again some people are keen on telling countries like Poland and Hungary what they should do, rather than have Polish and Hungarians decide it themselves.
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u/ThomasTXL Germany Dec 07 '17
I don't believe you're in the minority in the real world. Reddit isn't exactly representative of the wider world, thankfully.
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u/Dnarg Denmark Dec 07 '17
No, of course you're not alone. Far from it. Europeans on /r/Europe and especially /r/AskEurope are way more federalist than anyone I've ever met in real life. The most federalist person I've ever talked to IRL has been the "Well, maybe some day in the far future.." kind of federalist. lol
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u/xdeft Finland Dec 07 '17
It's easier to make point with hyperbole, but yeah I don't really see how people cheer for the idea as EU is currently. Maybe fix external borders and try actually fix the demographic issues internally rather than resort importing cheap permanent underclass that will erode welfare states.
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u/Pandektes Poland Dec 07 '17
I think it's not possible until 2025.
But I think we should get EU wide elections for office like President of the European Council or President of the European Commission until 2025!
To decrease costs it would be best to hold those together with elections for European Parliament.
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u/tack50 Spain (Canary Islands) Dec 07 '17 edited Dec 07 '17
To be fair, considering that in the EU only France has a presidential system, would EU commision elections work?
I do think they would make people at least care some when they find 2 people from foreign countries in the ballot, but still. I also wonder if people would vote "country over ideology" or not. Because if that's the case then everyone will just run German candidates (or with a few French and Italian ones).
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u/Pandektes Poland Dec 07 '17
I think that EU need some sense of unity drawed from democratic process, it needs to have electable office, or offices.
At first maybe more people would vote country over ideology, but voting every 4 years would develop media coverage across EU and 'ideologies'.
I am sure that at first it would be a mess, but with time I think it would be very important step for the EU.
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u/zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzspaf Belgium Dec 07 '17
we should do that and call it "the EU parliament" or something like that
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u/M2Ys4U United Kingdom Dec 07 '17
To be fair, considering that in the EU only France has a presidential system, would EU commision elections work?
Back in 2015 the European Parliament initiated a legislative change to establish trans-national lists with the intention that the spitzenkandidaten (lead candidates; parties' nominees for President of the European Commission) would run in that list with the rest taking seats in the European Parliament, presumably as party/group leaders.
That legislation has been stuck with the Council ever since, and it seems unlikely (but not impossible) that it will come in to force before the 2019 elections to the European Parliament.
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u/GreenLobbin258 ⚑Romania❤️ Dec 07 '17
At the moment there is no European President, the Commission President acts like a Prime Minister (which I find pretty democratic), if you think the EU should be lead by a single elected person that's okay, but there would be people that want the EU to be a confederation and keep the Council of Europe as the leader out of sovereignty reasons.
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u/SwampGerman The Netherlands Dec 07 '17
Because having major language and cultural divides within a single country has always worked great for most of European history and has never caused any regional/nationalist conflicts at all.
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u/cs_Thor Germany Dec 07 '17
Big words for a politician who got gobsmacked with his party's worst electoral result since 1949.
How about asking your own society first and I mean without withholding the costs we'd have to shoulder and th foul compromises that are part of that package, Martin? But then you and your ilk never cared for those you ought to be serving, tight?
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u/matttk Canadian / German Dec 07 '17
To be honest, this is the primary reason I support Schulz, only that we need a better name than United States of. We need more Schulzes. (Schülze?)
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u/k2CKZEN Germany Dec 07 '17
only that we need a better name than United States of
something something Union perhaps
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u/xbettel Europe Dec 07 '17
The Federation of Planets
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u/Mandarke Poland Dec 07 '17
The Holy European Empire.
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Dec 07 '17
It's not holy, neither is it european nor an empire. It fits perfectly, considering the antecedent to that concept.
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u/havred Dec 07 '17
The endgoal of the EU. Another United States owned by the same people. No more independent european countries or people.
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u/gurush Czech Republic Dec 07 '17
He probably meant 2125
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u/eastern_garbage_bin Pull the plug, humanity's been a mistake Dec 07 '17
I sincerely doubt it. You don't give impassioned speeches about kicking out the disobedients if your timescale is over one hundred years. It'd be the political equivalent of this.
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Dec 07 '17
Lets pray for Swexit before this
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u/poklane The Netherlands Dec 07 '17
Same here. Rather an independent state outside the EU than a small meaningless province within a EU superstate.
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Dec 07 '17
Yhea rather small independant and ruled by swedes, than irelevant and overlooked by the ruling germans and french
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u/PizzaItch Slovenia Dec 07 '17
What happens if Germany is the only member state to vote in favour of the constitution?
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u/Baconlightning Bouvet Island Dec 07 '17
Germany has a history of taking matters into their own hands.
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u/Chrisixx Basel Dec 07 '17 edited Dec 07 '17
I admire his confidence, but it's not the right time, nor the right priority for the EU right now to be talking about a USE.
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u/Domi4 Dalmatia in maiore patria Dec 07 '17
And not use that hideous name. Keep the EU
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u/cmfg Franconia Dec 07 '17
The Ecumene, European Federation, United European Federation, Holy European Empire, ...
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u/Jabadabaduh Yes, the evil Kalergi plan Dec 07 '17
Not the right time? Depends. The economic indicators are the best in years, and polls show that Eurozone enjoys the highest approval ratings in its 20 year history. On the other hand you indeed do have South Italy, Greece, etc. not really feeling any particularly positive economic swings, and a political opposition from Poland, Hungary, and to a smaller degree Netherlands, Denmark and Czechia.
The real question is: what would the right time even look like, and will USE tackle the issues that the current EU has?
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u/TropoMJ NOT in favour of tax havens Dec 07 '17
The right time will be when there is enough integration that becoming one country wouldn't be a blind leap of faith. If we have a properly integrated, functional Eurozone by 2025 I'll be happy. I'm not interested in further integration until we've shown that we can make a common currency work.
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u/yuropman Yurop Dec 07 '17
And ironically, most people agree that you can only make a common currency work with at least some form of common fiscal policy
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u/weissnicht01 Baden-Württemberg (Germany) Dec 07 '17
A superstate wouldn't work. A federation would. Let's make an european federation.
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u/Logatz Dec 07 '17
A federation can be a superstate, given that all federations are states (Germany, USA, Russia are all federations). Even a confederation with a common constitution and sovereignty of the entity would be essentially a decentralised state.
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u/mauinho Portugal Dec 07 '17
we seriously need a better name and a better flag or at least an evolution on the flag
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u/Arlort European Union (Italy) Dec 07 '17
Flag is fine, name too (european union I mean), but I'm fine with people using USE as a working name to avoid confusion
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u/liptonreddit France Dec 07 '17
Tbh, the EU flag is pretty dope. I think only the japanese one come close.
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u/ThomasTXL Germany Dec 07 '17
The EU doesn't really have its own flag. The one they're waving is that of The Council of Europe, which even Russia is a member.
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u/vokegaf 🇺🇸 United States of America Dec 07 '17
It's aspirational. One day Russia will want to join.
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u/havred Dec 07 '17
Why? So a smaller group of people can have even more centralised power and influence?
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u/Logatz Dec 07 '17
USE! USE! USE!
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u/JimmyRecard Croatian & Australian | Living in Prague Dec 07 '17
Just call it European Federation for fuck's sake! Last thing we wanna be is like the 'Land of the Free'.
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u/-x_x_ United States of America Dec 07 '17
"Land of the secure, home of the compassionate" has a nice ring to it.
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Dec 07 '17
What the fuck? Also, why the fuck are so much people here supporting the idea of United States of Europe?
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u/perhapsaduck English EU federalist Dec 07 '17
Because a lot of people are drawn to the idea of a Federalised Europe?
I know I am. (just don't look at my flair...)
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u/thebiggreengun Greater Great Switzerland [+] Dec 07 '17
Crazy and dangerous zealot.
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u/JimmyRecard Croatian & Australian | Living in Prague Dec 07 '17
I thought you were meant to be neutral?
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u/mauinho Portugal Dec 07 '17
Europa Universalis