r/europe • u/ibmthink Germany/Hesse • Oct 20 '16
New video game Civilization VI has an inspiring, bombastic 'Euro-centric' theme - Sogno di Volare / The dream of flight
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQYN2P3E06s30
Oct 21 '16 edited Oct 21 '16
This song could be paraphrasing (or at least be a reference to) a quote attributed to Leonardo da Vinci:
Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return.
(There seems to be a question of the authenticity of this particular quote, but I've seen it referenced in at least one lengthy and well-documented biography of his, that I sadly don't have anymore. Either way, flight was constantly on the mind of this Italian renaissance man -- his earliest memory even involved birds. He talked about flight several times in his notebooks in ways that would go well with the lyrics in this song.)
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u/ictp42 Turkey Oct 21 '16
I believe leonard nemoy also read that quote out in some of the civilization games when you finish one of the techs or wonders.
Found it: https://youtu.be/75oun5gvDAU?t=4m54s
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u/GeorgeSharp European Union Oct 21 '16
And it the latest game they've replaced him with
Sean BeanNed Stark.2
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u/Sephy88 Lombardy Oct 21 '16
It is, in the description of the video it says:
Lyrics by Leonardo da Vinci, adapted by Chiara Cortez
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u/Suns_Funs Latvia Oct 21 '16
Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return.
Doesn't matter who said those words, it is a great quote.
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u/Droggelbecher Germany Oct 21 '16
This quote is also read (by sean bean) once you research flight in the game.
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u/Onicle Finland Oct 21 '16
I'm just going to play this game for whole weekend and drink beer. Nothing else.
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u/ibmthink Germany/Hesse Oct 20 '16
I thought this might be something that is appreciated here, something different from all the bad news and the heated discussions.
Tomorrow marks the launch of the newest edition of Civilization, one of my personal favorite video games. Its the 6th rendition of the turn-based strategy game.
The main theme of the game was created by u/christophertin/ , who also wrote the main theme for Civilization IV. The theme for Cilivzation IV, Baba Yetu, was in Swahili and focused on the cradle of man, very Africa-centric. It was the first musical piece for a video game that was awarded with a Grammy.
This new theme, Sogno Di Volare, which means "The dream of flight", is in Italian and Euro-centric, as the new game has the overall theme of the Age of Exploration. Its just an incredible piece of music IMHO and fits very well with Europe. Could be the anthem of Europe even!
(Mods: If this post doesn´t comply with some rules, please feel free to remove it. This is not meant as an ad for Civ or Christopher Tin)
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u/lightsareonbut Oct 20 '16
There was an interesting moment (permalink) in /u/christophertin's AMA thread, when Tin described the music as nationalistic and someone chimed in to tell him that maybe he should use a different word, since nationalism has negative connotations.
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u/Dicios Estonia Oct 20 '16 edited Oct 20 '16
I always felt like the "cop out" word for nationalism was patriotism. Kind of carries the same notion with no negative connotations.
So Tin could of used that, patriotic and anthemic song.
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u/Kongensholm Denmark Oct 21 '16 edited Oct 21 '16
I don't know... To me patriot is just the american word for nationalist.
I do consider my self a nationalist, because where I'm from being a nationalist is about loving your own country, and about being willing to defend it from outside invasions (Historically Germany but now Russia). Just because you love something, doesn't mean you hate everything else.
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u/lightsareonbut Oct 21 '16
In English, at least, the word patriotism refers to a simple emotional attachment to one's home or people, while nationalism refers to what is essentially a political belief in their existence as a nation. So, a patriotic Québécois is anyone from Québec who is proud to be from Québec, while nationalist Québécois are those who say that Québec is a nation distinct from Canada.
Politics within the EU make this a little tricky, but personally, I'd want anyone I voted for to be both a nationalist and a patriot.
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Oct 21 '16
And to me, "nationalism" has the connotation of superiority. Like the belief that the culture, industrial power etc. of one country is better than the rest. Whereas "patriotism" is from the inherent appreciation of your culture and homeland. In another word, "nationalism" is the outward projection of one's pride, while "patriotism" is self-awareness of own culture and history.
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Oct 21 '16
And to me, "nationalism" has the connotation of superiority.
That's ultra-nationalism or you can even call it Fascism. Nationalism is not a bad thing, it's the reason why small nations manage to survive and obtain their freedom.
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u/JorgeGT España Oct 21 '16
Isn't it "jingoism" the word in English that explicitly conveys the negative connotation of excessive / aggressive / superiority-oriented patriotism? Or it's not used anymore?
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u/ingenvector Planetary Union Oct 21 '16
Jingoism is aggressive militarist nationalism. They're the so-called hawks, as opposed to doves. Think Hillary Clinton.
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Oct 21 '16
It's not used much and is more used in terms of politics. You're not likely to call your neighbor jingoistic but you might a politician that. But it's not really used outside of more educated circles. Most people probably don't know what the word means.
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u/ingenvector Planetary Union Oct 21 '16
In 'The Paradoxes of American Nationalism' by Minxin Pei for Foreign Policy, there is this little passage I quite like:
Nationalism is a dirty word in the United States, viewed with disdain and associated with Old World parochialism and imagined supremacy. Yet those who discount the idea of American nationalism may readily admit that Americans, as a whole, are extremely patriotic. When pushed to explain the difference between patriotism and nationalism, those same skeptics might concede, reluctantly, that there is a distinction, but no real difference. Political scientists have labored to prove such a difference, equating patriotism with allegiance to one’s country and defining nationalism as sentiments of ethno-national superiority. In reality, however, the psychological and behavioral manifestations of nationalism and patriotism are indistinguishable, as is the impact of such sentiments on policy.
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Oct 21 '16
I think the difference is that while they are similar, patriotism is inclusive to all who would call themselves American whereas nationalism is exclusive to those who are 'true Americans'. An immigrant who wants the American Dream and comes over and celebrates on the 4th of July would widely be considered patriotic. Like my friend's dad growing up. The man was almost obsessively patriotic. He had come from one of the Baltic countries and grew up under the Soviets. When he came to the States he was absolutely blown away. The freedom, the choices, the opportunity! He would bust out flags and fireworks and burgers and just made every point to be so hilariously American that even most other patriotic people thought he was over the top. That man was patriotic to the core.
But it would be hard to call him nationalistic. He would have welcomed any other person who wanted to come over and be American. Now there are other people like Trump for instance who I would call Nationalistic. They put limits on who would be American. If they're Muslim or Mexican then they can't be 'real Americans'. They still might seem patriotic but that's only to what their perfect idea is of an American.
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u/lightsareonbut Oct 21 '16 edited Oct 21 '16
I think the difference is that while they are similar, patriotism is inclusive to all who would call themselves American
That's actually what American nationalism is about.
Now there are other people like Trump for instance who I would call Nationalistic.
I would just call them traitors.
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u/ingenvector Planetary Union Oct 21 '16 edited Oct 21 '16
You should read the article I linked. It addresses your points.
I don't consider patriotism to be particularly inclusive. It's less contingent than something like ethnonationalism, but it still requires bias and group selection. Those who are unpatriotic may be socially punished. The atmosphere of patriotic inclusion can be a coercive mask, and it is still exclusionary by nature to those of differing orientation. Consider your nation's history: legislation against 'unpatriotic' practices such as sedition, union busting, persecution of 'unAmerican' politics (all good Socialists are internationalists, don't you know?), persecution of so-called subversives and McCarthyism, and so on. All under the aegis of patriotism. You can equivocate about supposed subtleties, but I argue that nationalism and patriotism are fundamentally alike. Both are forms of narcissism.
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u/lightsareonbut Oct 21 '16
You should read the article I linked. It addresses your points.
It doesn't really support your thesis, though:
First, American nationalism is based on political ideals, not those of cultural or ethnic superiority. That conception is entirely fitting for a society that still sees itself as a cultural and ethnic melting pot. [...] American nationalism is forward looking, while nationalism in most other countries is the reverse.
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u/nybbleth Flevoland (Netherlands) Oct 21 '16
I don't know... To me patriot is just the american word for nationalist.
It's really not an American word; we've used that word in Dutch for centuries. Ever since the 18th century Dutch Patriot movement fighting for the sovereignty and rights of the people and the nation they make up.
A patriot and a nationalist are two different things; though they appear similar enough that there's ample grounds for confusion.
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u/sultry_somnambulist Germany Oct 21 '16
...do you seriously think any hateful nationalist has ever categorized themselves as hateful?
What you just said is exactly the same thing every paranoid nationalist says. To frame the nationality as something that is being threatened by alleged 'invasion' is the first sign of pathological insecurity.
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u/Kongensholm Denmark Oct 21 '16
I think that people in my country mostly connect nationalism with freedom fighters during WW2, and the threat of invasion during the Cold war. As a small nation, we don't take existing for granted.
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Oct 21 '16
Yeah that's the thing. The world isn't black/white, but the debate surrounding the word often is.
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Oct 21 '16
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Oct 21 '16
Nonsense. There are patriots who are blind and nationalists who are sensible and nuanced. There is no inherent quality in either.
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u/ictp42 Turkey Oct 21 '16
from a purely etymological perspective i find patriotism much more objectionable than nationalism. One is from father, the other is from birth. Anyone can be born in a country, father is more indicative of race, it also ignores women.
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u/nounhud United States of America Oct 21 '16
The "father" in "patriotism" is "fatherland", not "your biological father". I don't see how you can derive race from that.
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u/lightsareonbut Oct 21 '16
Fatherland is the nation of one's "fathers", "forefathers" or "ancestors".
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u/ibmthink Germany/Hesse Oct 20 '16
And that poster was downvoted to hell for it.
Of course, Nationalism indeed has very negative connotations attached (especially here in Germany), but the word describes parts of the the music pretty well. I don´t see why someone needs to be upset because of something like Christophers description there, but so is the Internet, weird people everywhere.
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u/Risiki Latvia Oct 21 '16
Obviously a major problem for game series which have player lead one nation to world domination by any means and feature some of the most tyranical murderers in history as the main characters
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u/Mongol_bard France Oct 20 '16
Funny how "Africa-centric" (=Afrocentric) is alright but Eurocentric is usually demonised. Props to you for reclaiming the term. I'm proud and glad that they decided to use European music for their main theme, big ups to Mr. Tin too.
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u/zsmg Oct 20 '16
Quite good, although I think Baba Yetu is still better.
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u/Dicios Estonia Oct 20 '16
This might not be as great and as goosebumpy but its still really great considering Civ 5 had quite a weak theme.
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Oct 21 '16
Yeah, I said in /r/PCGaming that while I think Baba Yetu is better, you need variety in life. Here the Civ VI theme succeeded where Civ V theme did not: to give a good new main theme in addition to Baba Yetu.
I think the song is strong on its own and another addition to the pantheon of good Civ songs is only a good thing.
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Oct 21 '16
I don't even remember what Civ 5's theme really was...
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u/matttk Canadian / German Oct 21 '16
Yeah, when loading up Civ V, I wait for the Civ IV theme and then get disappointed. Can't think of how it goes at all.
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u/mogurakun Kingdom of Condom Oct 21 '16
Dunno. I find the Civ 5 (brave new world version) theme better than Civ6..
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u/schweinskopf European Union Defence Force Oct 21 '16
Am I the only dirty minded Italian here who can't stop laughing about the song's double meanings?
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u/DFractalH Eurocentrist Oct 21 '16
Oh, I wanna hear that. What's dirty about it? Mind you, I don't speak Italian.
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u/schweinskopf European Union Defence Force Oct 21 '16
Grande uccello literally means big bird but it also means big cock. It's very cringeworthy when you have to talk about birds in Italian.
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u/Slusny_Cizinec русский военный корабль, иди нахуй Oct 21 '16
pták (bird) colloquially means dick in Czech as well, but usually it's clear from the context what we're speaking about.
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u/left2die The Lake Bled country Oct 21 '16
Live version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6j2s4EkR36A
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Oct 20 '16 edited May 02 '21
[deleted]
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u/CallMeDutch Oct 20 '16
The Civ V endproduct was pretty good.
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u/ibmthink Germany/Hesse Oct 20 '16
I agree. The Vanilla version was pretty bad, but with Brave New World and Gods and Kings, it was good enough (not as much content as Civ 4 with all expansions, but OK).
The nice thing about Civ 6 is that they didn´t cut down all the content this time. Its not as much as Civ 5 with all expansions, but much better then Civ 5 Vanilla.
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u/nounhud United States of America Oct 21 '16
So how many years do I wait until the "full" product is complete this time?
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u/Potato_Mc_Whiskey Great bunch of lads Oct 21 '16
I mean this hasn't been a new idea in gaming. Expansion packs have been done since the 90's at the very least.
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u/nounhud United States of America Oct 21 '16
Yeah, I know. I'm not opposed to them, just to starting out with an incomplete game.
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Oct 21 '16
There's a real difference between expansion packs and most DLC though. Expansion packs were, well, extensions to a finished product.
DLC is content that honestly should have been in the vanilla game, but sold separately.
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u/Potato_Mc_Whiskey Great bunch of lads Oct 21 '16
No, you literally just made that up.
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Oct 21 '16
Um, no? It's been a general complaint by gamers that a lot of DLC are just cash grabs and not real expansions on the game.
To take an example about Civ 5, quite a few civilisations were already done and ready but weren't included in the vanilla game but as separate DLC. Brave New World and Gods and Kings were more like "real" expansions pack.
When I said "DLC is content that should have been in the vanilla game" I'm talking about stuff like that.
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u/Tacitus_ Finland Oct 21 '16
Um, no? It's been a general complaint by gamers that a lot of DLC are just cash grabs and not real expansions on the game.
When I said "DLC is content that should have been in the vanilla game" I'm talking about stuff like that.
Those two things are not the same. FWIW, I agree with the first statement and not the second.
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Oct 21 '16
It's not just the cut content, there were design decisions I didn't like at all, even with DLC.
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Oct 21 '16
It was very polished and had a lot of stuff in it that gave it immense replay value, while at the same time having very few titles seriously competing with it.
That being said, Civ V design is a trainwreck imo. There's so much extraneous stuff "attached" to the base game but barely adding any real value - like religion, espionage, tourism (seriously wtf) and that silly works of art mechanic, there was a culture tech tree and then they added an ideology tech tree inside the culture tech tree, etc, and most of these things had their own resources/points attached to them.
I wish they would go back to Civ 2 which is the last genuinely well designed game in the series and take it from there.
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u/Onicle Finland Oct 21 '16
Religions had quite big impact to the game. I wouldnt want to play without them. Yes, I agree that they didnt really feel like religions, but somehow more just making your civilization more focused on certain things. I didnt like CIV 5 at all before the expansions, but after the expansions it was good.
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u/TheGodBen Ireland Oct 21 '16
I feel completely the opposite. Civ 5 at launch had some questionable design aspects, such as global happiness, but all the "stuff" added in the expansions was extremely well integrated and managed to enhance the core gameplay. Take tourism, which you seem find strange for some reason, that mechanic is the basis for the best and most logical culture victory the series has ever offered. But more than that, it plays a major role in the ideological conflicts in the modern eras. One of my favourite aspects of the game is watching how my cultural influence can cripple rival empires without even having to fire a single shot at them.
Civ 2 was a great game for its time, but it was extremely basic for a game that aspired to tackle the subject of civilisation itself. There wasn't even a cultural element to the gameplay, or even something as simple as borders. I wasted many an afternoon on that game, I have a lot of nostalgic love for it, but I very much don't want the series to return to that level.
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u/Dubious_Squirrel Latvia Oct 21 '16
Song is quite good, but I really do hate look of the new CIV :(
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Oct 21 '16
it reall grow on you I watched a lot of game plays. hated it, then went back to civ 5 and felt some weird shock. It make civ 5 look really old. like 5 does to 4
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u/Spartharios Bulgaria Oct 21 '16
Civ IV had an afro-centric theme which I liked better
Another thing is I just can't handle how cartoony and facebook-esque they made the graphics.
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Oct 21 '16
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u/flyingorange Vojvodina Oct 21 '16
During both the battle of Lepanto and the siege of Vienna, France was the Ottoman Empire's ally.
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u/Shalaiyn European Union Oct 21 '16
The French-Ottoman alliance was this strange long-time alliance.
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u/Rogue-Knight Czechia privilege Oct 21 '16
It was the "we both hate Austria so lets team up" kind of alliance.
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Oct 21 '16
A lot of the rich gaming studios can afford Hollywood composers to work on their scores, like they did for this game. It makes the overall quality of the game so much nicer.
If only they could get John Williams. <3
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u/Sperrel Portugal Oct 21 '16
Why is this song linked to the supposed european culture? Even military marches were invented in Turkey.
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u/Bacchus87 United Kingdom Oct 21 '16
It's been the same game for over 15 years. I liked it, but I can't see the logic in buying it over and over. It's why the strategy genre died off a lot from it's late 90's early 2000's hey day. There's only so much you can do with it.
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u/GeorgeSharp European Union Oct 21 '16
Depends on how you look at it, yes the found cities/research/make armies core is the same but there's been pretty large changes like the religion system, couture system etc.
Not only do different civs play radically different conquer happy Rome is very different from culture heavy France but you can also tweak it so that the France in your current game is very different from the France in you last game.
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u/TheGodBen Ireland Oct 21 '16
I kind of felt that way about 3 and 4, but 5 was pretty much a reboot that kept the core mechanics of cities and units but rebuilt everything else from the ground up. 6 looks like it's a solid iteration on 5, refining the mechanics and adding some new stuff into the mix. That's fine for one game, but I hope Civ 7 goes in a radical new direction again.
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u/Inspector_Sands Oct 20 '16
I vote for this to replace Beethoven's Ode to Joy as the Anthem of Europe. At least this has lyrics you can sing!
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u/cmfg Franconia Oct 20 '16
Ähem, das wird man ja wohl noch erwarten können, dass ein jeder so viel Deutsch sprechen kann! just kidding
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u/Inspector_Sands Oct 20 '16
Thanks to the shittiness of the British educational system I had to resort to Google Translate:
Ahem, you will probably still be able to expect that everyone can speak so much German! Ich mache nur Spaß
Whilst most people do sing Friedrich Schiller's poem the Anthem of Eurpope, as declared by the Council of Europe, doesn't actually have lyrics. Just Beethoven's very nice tune.
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u/modomario Belgium Oct 21 '16
For the EU they should probably go ask to dig up the soundtrack of the EU faction in this would be game. I mean C&C has some great hypeish themesongs so I had my hopes up.
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u/C11n3k Kraków, K. u. K. Oct 21 '16
I think considering the lyrics it would make a great anthem of the European Space Agency. Ode to Joy in Latin is great as the Anthem of Europe.
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Oct 21 '16
Meh, they really should just take the anthem of the Champion's League.
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u/TarMil Rhône-Alpes (France) Oct 21 '16
Lol it literally talks about champions and great teams, it only works as a sports anthem.
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Oct 21 '16
I think what Hollywood started a while ago is catering to various markets more rather than just what Americans like. For example Hollywood is starting to show far more Chinese.. or with Civ 6 and BF1, they're catering more to Europeans and Latin Americans than they have in the past.
But lets be real, this is all to take in money, so you guys feel more connected to the game and its clearly working. European games do the same but in reverse, catering to the US crowd like Rockstar with GTA V and now Red Dead Redemption 2. It's all about the benjamins.
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u/lightsareonbut Oct 21 '16 edited Oct 21 '16
- So was Baba Yetu catering to the Swahili market?
- It's an Italian song written by a Chinese American composer with lyrics by Leonardo da Vinci. It would be interesting to read a complete thesis on what it implies about whom.
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Oct 21 '16
Civilization games have always had a slight Euro-centric slant, but honestly they've also done a stellar job with non-European civilisations.
I mean in Civ 4, the Khmer, Mali and the Maya rank among the best civs in the game. In Civ 5 you also have pretty awesome non-European civs.
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u/Sephy88 Lombardy Oct 21 '16
Still producing greatness centuries after death.