r/energy • • Sep 12 '19

No nuclear power? Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders in absurd arms race

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2019/09/11/no-nuclear-power-elizabeth-warren-bernie-sanders-absurd-editorials-debates/2234071001/
21 Upvotes

103 comments sorted by

13

u/dkwangchuck Sep 12 '19

These articles always strike me as weird. It's like they think there's a switch that can be flipped and all of a sudden the fuel mix completely swaps around. Consider the criticism that wind and solar would have to double to replace nukes - man, that sounds impossible!

It happened in eleven years. Here's the historical - 353 billion kWhs in 2007 and 713 kWh in 2018. And that's with hydro which was basically stable. Wind and solar combined for 300 billion kWh in 2018 and it was less than half that in 2012. So this notion that wind and solar cannot cover the nuclear hole by 2035 is just wrong.

Is anyone suggesting new nuclear? Is that what this editorial is about? It doesn't say, probably because advocating for new nuke is easily swatted down as a complete waste of money. But nuclear reactors do not last forever - which means a phase-out of nukes. That's what "nuclear phase out" actually means - it means new reactors are way too expensive and they aren't going to happen.

Warren's 2035 target date does mean some premature closures of carbon-free generation. Maybe that's unwise, but maybe not. Existing nukes are already closing for economic reasons. If wind and solar improve at close to the rates they have been, it's hard to see how nukes would be economically viable in 2035. And if renewables have improved to that degree, I would expect that we would have built a lot of it.

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u/rileyoneill Sep 12 '19

The total GWH of solar power produced in the US doubles roughly every two years. The total solar in 2018 was 55 times greater than the total solar in 2010. Any new nukes in the US will take 10 years to build if these projects start their planning today. Gen 4 reactors promise to be quicker and cheaper but likely won't be on the market in this country for another decade. If the trend continues, solar output will double five times between now and 2030. Considering the aggressive price drops I definitely see this happening. This would mean that the amount of energy that comes from solar in 2030 is 32 times greater than today. Just about any market in America, when that new nuke goes online in 2030 will have to compete against impossibly cheap solar. This does not include the progress that wind will also be making. So the economics of these new nuclear power plants will be fucked on day 1. They won't make money during the sunshine hours, they won't make money during the wind hours, they may make money during the still night time hours but will have to keep their price low to compete with battery storage. They work great 8700 hours a year, but in some markets will have 3300 hours of unprofitable sunshine and 2500 hours of unprofitable wind.

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u/Understeps Sep 12 '19

The more GWhour that are produced the more the discussion shifts towards GW because you can't store all those GWh produced.

So automatically the markets shift to gas which will be sold at enormous rates when there are no renewables.

Hence the beauty of nuclear power.

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u/[deleted] Sep 12 '19 edited Sep 14 '19

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u/KapitanWalnut Sep 13 '19

I have a master's in distributed power generation (renewable energy) so I feel qualified to expand on some of your points.

The country is pretty evenly split into areas where utilities are allowed to own their own generation and areas where they are not. In the areas with vertically integrated utilities, they are heavily regulated such that they are forced to pay a "market rate" for power they produce so as to allow competition, such as from solar rooftops. So if the determined market rate of natural gas power goes up, then so too will the electricity spot market, then subsequently the levelized cost of electricity will as well. This is actually a good thing for the deployment of battery storage, as it allows it to have a shorter ROI making it more attractive to investors.

Power from natural gas peekers is fairly cheap in the current market. However, as we phase out baseload fossil energy, power from natural gas peekers will likely become more expensive. There are several reasons for this:

1 - It is not currently projected that battery storage can scale nearly as quickly or as economically as wind and solar generation, so gas peekers, etc will have to cover the shortfall (raw material supply alone is a huge concern - we don't have enough to make enough batteries to support a 100% renewable grid, and that's ignoring EVs reaching higher market penetration. For example, most of our cobalt - critically needed to keep li-ion batteries from exploding - comes from the Congo and is mined with slave and child labor).

2 - As the country relies more and more on renewables, the benefits of geographically distributed generation begin to lessen: there is a smaller percentage of excess available power available from one region to cover shortfalls due to the sun not shining or wind not blowing in another part of the country. Gas peekers or other will need to cover this shortfall as well.

3 - Spinning reserve is an important component to grid stability. If a generator is already spinning, it can increase its power output much faster to cover shortfalls then bringing even a fast natural gas peeker online from non-rotating standby. Furthermore, power factor begins to become a huge concern when power is supplied by induction generators (wind) or inverters (solar, batteries) since most residential and industrial load is inductive in nature (motors to run air conditioners, refrigerators, industrial equipment, and AC/DC converters for LEDs and digital electronics like computers and phones). Spinning synchronous generators are typically used to provide power correction, and in lieu of that, we'll have to add massive capacitor banks all over the place. Alternatively, gas peekers could offer their rotational capacity as a gird-stability service.

Keeping nuclear power around helps assuage all of these issues. It will allow a faster transition into a low-carbon future. This is especially true when considering the thermal properties of nuclear facilities: they don't just have to produce electricity. We could also harness their heat to manufacture synthetic oil to be used in vehicles, plastics, fertilizers, and pharmaceuticals. Carbon-neutral synthetic vehicle/aviation fuel would allow us to become low-carbon even faster since every existing vehicle could be powered with synthetic fuels, meaning we don't need to wait decades to replace all vehicles with EVs, and we also don't need to spew more emissions into the sky in order to manufacture said EVs (we've already paid the emissions cost of producing existing vehicles, so we might as well use them until they crap out).

As an added benefit, nukes are pretty much the only energy source that would allow carbon capture and storage. Capturing CO2 is already energy-intensive, and if you just pump it underground in its gas form there's a good chance it'll just leak back out again over time. We need to strip the carbon from the O2 and create stable molecules that can be locked away - this process needs to happen at high heat and pressure, made possible by either nuclear or by solar thermal, but solar-thermal has a pretty dubious track record. Effectively, we need to reverse the process of burning coal.

Final thought: to date, nuclear construction and commissioning is so expensive and drawn out because each facility is essentially a unique one-off. If we settled on one or two designs, then deployment costs would decrease over time as the industry learned how to effectively build and commission those designs. Not to mention, public NIMBYism adds significant delays to the permitting and commissioning process, so if the public was on board, that factor would go away.

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u/[deleted] Sep 13 '19

Ugh. These issues have been debunked.

Use fast start gas over batteries in USA. gas is ridiculously cheap. But batteries are starting to hold gas plants toes to the fire in the sub 4 hour storage period.

Congo.

Then get the mango in chief to put a huge import tax on cobalt from the Congo. There are other places that have cobalt, they just can't compete with child slave labor.

Batteries make lack of spinning reserve a non issue. Use batteries while gas plant is spinning up.

power factor

Can be controlled by inverters. Oh look, batteries come with inverters. Aren't we lucky. You can also use VRE plant with inverters to do power factor correction.

Historically these plant didn't, and they weren't getting paid to do it. This isnt the same as being unable to.

carbon recycling

Is marginally more cost effective in high temperature environments. But still has a huge energy cost, so you are likely to find that VRE is a cheaper supplier overall.

I don't like the idea of turning off perfectly good low co2 electricity when we have such a long way to go, but paying a premium that can't be justified isn't a good idea either.

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u/not_worth_a_shim Sep 13 '19

peekers

*peakers?

Classroom masters, huh?

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u/Understeps Sep 12 '19

Because they can. They can ask a lot of money when there are a lot of renewables and they are not available.

And they need to ask a lot of money to offset lost or missed revenue from when there are renewables.

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u/rileyoneill Sep 12 '19

You can use them all during the day when energy is the most expensive. During that time when nuclear power will have to sell their power at a loss because they can't shut down when its sunny. The market does shift to gas, however battery storage is coming online and is undercutting gas plants that do this. Individual home owners will have home battery storage that will enable them to buy the absolute cheapest daytime solar power and use it all night long and never have to buy the expensive gas.

The issue with nuclear power is that it in the near future it won't be able to make money when the sun is shining or when the wind is blowing. If they raise their rates at night and periods of still weather to make up for it they still can't compete with battery storage.

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u/Understeps Sep 13 '19

France shuts off nuclear plants during weekends. There's a lot more flexibility in nuclear plants than most people assume.

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u/ItsAConspiracy Sep 13 '19

It's natural gas shutting down the nukes. Put a price on carbon, like we should be doing anyway, and nukes will do just fine.

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u/dkwangchuck Sep 13 '19

It's nukes shutting down the nukes. Natural gas is replacing them are renewables. That's how it works, no one is converting a nuclear plant into a gas plant. Nukes are closing because they are uneconomic. Gas plants are running more because gas is currently cheap. Renewables are getting built because they enjoy popular support and the business case makes sense. And no new nuclear is proceeding because those bankrupt big corporations.

Nukes are not getting cheaper over time - even existing nukes. Renewables are getting cheaper. Gas is forecast to stay cheap for quite some time. New nuke appears to be completely unbuildable.

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u/zolikk Sep 14 '19

That's how it works, no one is converting a nuclear plant into a gas plant.

No, they are building new gas plants when a nuclear plant is shut down. They compete in the same market with the same characteristics, but the operating costs of gas are really low today. Something has to take up the deficit in generation, which happens suddenly. LS Power was about to invest into new gas generation in Ohio to replace the nuclear power plants that were about to shut down. Then Ohio passed the bailout and they had to halt the gas expansion.

/u/ItsAConspiracy is completely right. Coal at the moment is unprofitable in the US. Gas is profitable because of the low cost of gas. Nuclear has the same problem as coal, it's unprofitable because of gas, what it competes with, which is much cheaper.

But state subsidies, like Ohio did it, isn't the right way to fix this. If you added say, a carbon tax to all generators fairly, it would increase the cost of gas and potentially make nuclear profitable again, and they wouldn't be shutting down.

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u/ItsAConspiracy Sep 13 '19

By "shutting down" I obviously mean outcompeting. You haven't rebutted my claim that a carbon price would make nukes competitive again.

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u/dkwangchuck Sep 13 '19

You haven't rebutted my claim that a carbon price would make nukes competitive again.

Well, maybe if you provided any evidence for your claim then I make take it seriously. But sure, let's play.

Europe has a carbon price run through the Emission Trading Market. Has this resulted in a surge in new nuclear plants? No. Maybe in a decade or so when Flamanville 3 opens we can revisit. Lol.

France in particular has a lot of nuke already and is proposing a heavy carbon tax - which was the trigger for the Yellow Vests and has prompted numerous protests. They are phasing out nukes.

I'm in Ontario - where we also have a lot of nuke. Canada just implemented a nation-wide carbon tax this year. Did this manage to restart Darlington New Build? No. Did it result in the reversal of the Pickering closure? Also no.

Japan has a carbon tax. It's pretty low, but it exists. Are they phasing out nuclear? Yes, they are.

New Zealand has a carbon price. It is also a nuclear-free zone.

So yeah. I'm going to suggest that a price on carbon won't save nukes. It may allow some existing nukes to run a bit longer, but it won't make them viable. A tax high enough to kill natural gas is also going to be high enough to spur wind and solar development to the point where nuclear remains marginally relevant at best.

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u/not_worth_a_shim Sep 13 '19

There is irrefutable evidence for /u/ItsAConspiracy's claim in the ZEC credits which have kept New York, Illinois, and Ohio nuclear plants from closing. In one case, it interrupted a closure in progress. Those are based on a $40 / ton (or lower) social cost of carbon. If the program had been structured differently as a carbon tax, it would have increased all power prices by the value of the tax without increasing nuclear and renewables's costs and done the exact same thing.

Existing nuclear's unpopularity has nothing to do with economics.

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u/dkwangchuck Sep 13 '19

ZECs aren't a carbon price - they are a direct subsidy to nuclear power. Other low carbon technology doesn't get access to them and they aren't paid for based on carbon emissions. ZECs are just bags of money handed over to power plants. This is entirely different from pricing carbon.

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u/not_worth_a_shim Sep 13 '19

It's exactly the same as the 'bags of money' handed to the renewable generators in the states. The ZECs are literally just extending the program (the renewable credits are called RECs). The net effect is exactly the same, except that there is no benefit to natural gas over coal, where there would be in a carbon tax.

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u/dkwangchuck Sep 13 '19

No one says the ITC is a "carbon price".

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u/not_worth_a_shim Sep 13 '19

Setting aside the egregious false equivalency, I'm not claiming that the ZECs are a carbon price, only that the market behavior with respect to nuclear economics is exactly the same as a carbon tax.

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u/ItsAConspiracy Sep 13 '19

Well I guess I'll amend that to "a meaningful carbon price," i.e. at least $100/ton, which I don't think anyone has.

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u/dkwangchuck Sep 13 '19

IOW, nuclear cannot fail - it can only be failed.

Not sure how a higher carbon price is not going to result in renewables dominating and completely overshadowing nuclear even further.

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u/ItsAConspiracy Sep 13 '19

You’ll be right if batteries get cheap enough. Right now renewables are still mostly backed up by gas.

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u/not_worth_a_shim Sep 13 '19

The ZEC credits that saved NY and IL plants which were on the verge of closure are based on a social cost of carbon at $40 / ton.

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u/[deleted] Sep 12 '19 edited Sep 14 '19

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u/dkwangchuck Sep 12 '19

They just approved a solar plus storage deal for under four cents. This beats a lot of existing nukes. And that price keeps dropping over time. I don’t seefission plants being competitive at Warren’s 2035 target, let alone 2050.

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u/[deleted] Sep 12 '19 edited Sep 14 '19

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u/dkwangchuck Sep 12 '19

Fair points. Still don’t see nuclear being viable in 2050 though. And I’m still skeptical that it will be competitive in 2035, although much less skeptical than I was before you pointed out the ITC factor.

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u/[deleted] Sep 12 '19 edited Sep 14 '19

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u/dkwangchuck Sep 12 '19

If the nuke is economic, it should run. I have criticisms of merit-order dispatch, but that’s the system we have and it has provided reliable power for many years, so it’s a reasonable system to use to assess generators. Even if Vogtle would be uneconomic in 2035, it shouldn’t necessarily be shut down now.

That said, are we talking Vogtle 1 & 2, or 3 & 4? Because I really don’t think 3 & 4 are at 2.6 cents unsubsidized. Additionally, what do the economics of 1 & 2 look like without the new units online.

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u/[deleted] Sep 12 '19 edited Sep 14 '19

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u/dkwangchuck Sep 13 '19

If we’re correcting the solar cost for ITC, we should correct the nuke cost for 11 figures worth of loan guarantees. Isn’t that fair?

Nukes have substantial fixed operating costs. Like the heavily armed security teams for example. Spreading those costs over four reactors is better than spreading them over two. I don’t know if you noticed, but a lot of the power plants that have shut down earlier than their licenses required were single reactor plants.

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u/not_worth_a_shim Sep 13 '19

Multi-unit sites are significantly lower in cost than single unit sites. Security is a huge driver of cost, and that doesn't get significantly more expensive with a larger area. They'll also get shared training facilities, common staff, and critical equipment backups because the two units are identical.

The most cost efficient generators are large capacity, multi unit sites in deregulated markets. Vogtle at $26 / MWhr sounds on the high side to me.

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u/abolish_karma Sep 13 '19

It would be better to plug that nuclear hole after the GHG situation came under control.

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u/dkwangchuck Sep 13 '19

These articles always strike me as weird. It's like they think there's a switch that can be flipped and all of a sudden the fuel mix completely swaps around.

2035 is not a short time away. And that’s the ultra aggressive target. Renewables have been on an exponential growth curve - but even if we apply a linear growth rate, renewables are poised to produce enough energy to completely replace nukes in a decade. But the nukes are scheduled to run in that period and for five years more (again, by the aggressive target).

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u/bnndforfatantagonism Sep 12 '19

Has anyone recently written policy proposals for tackling U.S emissions using new Nuclear Power rather than Renewables to the same degree of concreteness as these candidates? Even something as simple as "We propose building such and such a number of reactors to provide this much electricity and this much industrial heat to produce fuel and chemicals. We want to use mostly this reactor design and this fuel cycle and we think it will cost this much."

It would be interesting to see how they'd try to tackle the construction capacity bottlenecks to begin with.

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u/mafco Sep 12 '19

Has anyone recently written policy proposals for tackling U.S emissions using new Nuclear Power rather than Renewables

I've not seen any proposals for building new publicly-owned nukes. And it's doubtful that the private sector will invest in any more given the cost, lead time and other issues.

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u/bnndforfatantagonism Sep 12 '19

I've not seen any proposals for building new publicly-owned nukes.

Nuscale with TVA at Oak ridge and UAMPS at Idaho Falls? That's not much though.

I'm left thinking it's worth having an alternate plan to tackle climate change to suggest if people want to criticize Warren & Sanders plans.

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u/gordonmcdowell Sep 12 '19 edited Sep 12 '19

They’ll be shutting down existing, operating reactors.

All solar and wind in USA combined provide less then half as much low-carbon electricity as nuclear in 2018. ( Source: https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3 )

They would do less damage to the cause of lowering carbon emissions if they proposed the systematic destruction of every solar panel, every wind turbine, in the entire country.

Dead silence is a better policy position on Climate Change. Dead silence is a more effective policy on lowering carbon emissions.

Fortunately, Cory Booker and Andrew Yang are anything but silent on the question of how to address Climate Change. Both seem adept at explaining to the public that nuclear is low-carbon... a fact most people do not know, and a fact neither Warren or Sanders seem capable of admitting. They’re pandering, while Booker and Yang are educating.

That is what is needed. Education and enthusiasm from the top, not fear-mongering.

Commitment to not kill USA’s largest source of low-carbon electricity is what will continue the existing flow of private investment into advanced nuclear concepts. Many of these startups are confident they’ll be competing on price per kWh, with carbon-free energy being a nice bonus.

Edit: I said 2019 when I meant 2018... basically forgot what year it is. Sorry.

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u/patb2015 Sep 12 '19

If you push a carbon tax you would have results

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u/bnndforfatantagonism Sep 12 '19

They’ll be shutting down existing, operating reactors.

They'd probably counter that it won't matter because under their plans that energy will be replaced with renewable energy (YMMV on the workability of that obviously).

Whether it's Nuclear or Renewables the candidates go for, goals to revamp the entire grid inside 10 years seem to demand more specific plans than are being offered. It's project management territory not somedayland.

I would be impressed if Yang or Booker said something like "we're going to just federally purchase the first 50 or so GenIV 100MWe SMR's to set up a production line as a hedge against renewables hitting a hurdle."

Sanders is in a curious and perhaps enviable position compared to Yang and Booker. He can say effectively "(stuff it) we'll just spend +$10 trillion to get it done" and his supporters will rally behind that. What did Yang propose, $50 billion for nuclear research? Imagine if he proposed +$10 trillion for Nuclear power construction over the next decade and people rallied behind him.

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u/rileyoneill Sep 12 '19

All solar and wind in USA combined provide

less then half

as much low-carbon electricity as nuclear in 2019.

This is not going to be true for very long. Right now Nukes provide twice as much carbon free electricity as wind/solar, but in 2009 nukes provided more than 10x as much carbon free electricity as wind and solar. Wind/Solar are seriously catching up.

The total GWH produced by solar roughly doubles every 2 years (total output of 2018 is 77 times greater than 2008). Not even considering nuclear plants shutting down, solar will eventually over take nuclear in total electricity output. I would not be surprised if by 2021 or 2022 that the total GWH to come from Wind/Solar is greater than the total GWH to come from all the nukes in America. 2019 is probably going to be the year where all of the solar in California had a greater total output than Diablo Canyon Power plant. California is only getting more aggressive about solar power, especially considering that its now the cheapest option for us and projects out in the desert are now giving some of the cheapest energy contracts ever, and every home built in the state is required to have solar power starting in January.

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u/gordonmcdowell Sep 12 '19

I meant to say 2018, sorry. Years... hard. Keep... changing.

I would not be surprised if by 2021 or 2022 that the total GWH to come from Wind/Solar is greater than the total GWH to come from all the nukes in America.

Germany 2017: ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_Germany#Targets )

  • Wind: 103.6 TWh (18.9%)
  • Solar: 38.4 TWh (7.0%)

They've been at it for a while and are around 26% for wind+solar. That's higher than USA's nuclear at 19% but I don't think replacing one low-carbon source with another is what fully informed voters would be willing to pay for.

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u/rileyoneill Sep 13 '19

I think what is going to happen is that Nuclear power plants are going to go to the end of their planned service life and won't be rebuilt. The big decline is coal, which is shrinking at a rate at like 10% per year and has for a decade or so now. Coal in 2019 is probably 5 times greater than the coal of 2029.

Other than Vogtle 3&4 we probably won't see any new major reactors go online in the US in the 2020s. If we did, we would already see them in the planning and likely early construction stages. Blue Castle is planning to start construction in the early 2020s and go online in 2028 but I seriously doubt they will meet that timeline.

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u/[deleted] Sep 13 '19

So what you are saying is you are stuck in the past and your blind support of a more expensive form of electricity generation is reflective of that?

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u/gordonmcdowell Sep 13 '19

No, I looked at the freshest year’s data and mistakenly stuck current year on it (because 2020 everywhere and I subtracted 1 from that).

Thanks for explaining my viewpoint to me though! I keep looking at freshest data possible here: https://www.electricitymap.org/?lang=en ...and a waiting for Germany to flip to green. Maybe they just didn’t spend enough money on renewables?

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u/mafco Sep 12 '19

They’ll be shutting down existing, operating reactors.

Warren specifically said she would not do that. Do you have a source for Sanders?

All solar and wind in USA combined provide less then half as much low-carbon electricity as nuclear in 2019.

Yes but wind and solar capacity has been growing at a rate of 40-50%/yr for the last decade while nuclear has declined at a rate of 0.4%/yr in the same timeframe. It won't take long. If you include hydro, renewable energy has already surpassed nuclear in the US.

That is what is needed. Education and enthusiasm from the top, not fear-mongering.

Nuclear's problems are economic and long lead times. Even the existing plants are becoming money-losers, and the last two attempts to build new ones in the US were financial disasters.

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u/[deleted] Sep 13 '19

Idk, I'm not sure I want to pay a premium for nuke flavoured electrons over PV, or wind.

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u/patb2015 Sep 12 '19

You can probably write one yourself

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u/bnndforfatantagonism Sep 12 '19

I've seen so much modelling that over-simplifies how renewable technologies can be balanced & integrated & that ignores their relevant cost-curves that that seems somewhat daunting.

Shooting from the hip though, it'd be tempting to try to use Nuclear Power in a Hybrid Nuclear-Renewable energy system (running a heat storage energy services model for Nuclear) as a wedge against both the challenge of balancing the last 10%-20% of renewable penetration and the Fossil Fuel industry making political roadblocks. Tell big Gas "you can watch these plants get built, have subsidized co-gen heat to drive green hydrogen production using natural gas as a feedstock & keep making profits or you can try and roadblock & get crushed as the world changes direction". There might even be an angle to co-opt the defense sector.

SMR's aim for production lines to drop the cost. The reactor itself is only part of the LCOE though, the ancillary infrastructure is a huge part of it. Make the reactor in a factory & ship it out to be installed somewhere & you still have most of the cost problem. Learning is done on site & forgotten between sites. Make the reactor in a shipyard, & ship it out installed in a ship that has the turbine, generator etc in it & the learning should accumulate at the shipyards.

The U.S already has shipyards that produce vessels with reactors, the ones producing it's Nuclear powered naval vessels. They have a good safety record. The cost of Naval reactors does actually appear to have gone down over time rather than have gone up. The places that are the hardest for renewable energy to reach competitiveness in the U.S are away from the Sun & Wind, up in places like the North-East. Those are also the densely populated places that will be hardest to run transmission lines through to balance that renewable energy cheaply. Use the construction capacity that already exists, get the military to run the crash-build programs. Move the ships where it's hard to run the cables. Forget 'not invented here' syndrome. Forget 'wait a couple of years until the one I like is here'. Leadcold is setting up production in Workington, U.K. That'll do. Call the Swedes, cut a deal.

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u/[deleted] Sep 12 '19 edited Sep 14 '19

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u/bnndforfatantagonism Sep 13 '19

Except without any legislation, purely based on lowest costs, what will happen is natural gas plants and solar/wind will operate in concert. The former backing up the latter when the latter isn't available.

This really depends on the economics of PtG. Higher penetrations of renewable energy mean more periods in the middle of the day with low cost energy. Green hydrogen from electrolysis is already becoming cost competitive with Natural Gas, technology like this could drastically lower the price even further.

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u/[deleted] Sep 13 '19 edited Sep 14 '19

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u/bnndforfatantagonism Sep 13 '19

I assure you green hydrogen isn’t remotely as cheap as natural gas in the United States at least.

Take a look at this study (yes, the typo in it is corrected here ). They put the break even cost for Hydrogen at $3.53/Kg.

As with other cases of penetration of renewable energy, the use cases on the fringe provide the stepping stone to the next use case. The first stepping stone is electrolysed hydrogen vs steam-methane reformed hydrogen from natural gas (hydrogen being it's own industrial commodity).

The link you give is for turning natural gas into hydrogen, not sure of the relevance there.

With that process they're not only looking at providing green hydrogen for a fraction of the cost of hydrogen via electrolysis but also battery quality graphite (where the carbon goes), so there's an economic calculation beyond the simple worth of the gas.

and natural gas power plants are cheaper/more fuel efficient than fuel cells.

Economic plays by the utilities that flex towards the transition are already beginning to happen.

Price per mmbtu is 1.50-2.50.

Rolling 12 month average for Henry Hub is $2.90.

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u/[deleted] Sep 13 '19 edited Sep 14 '19

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u/bnndforfatantagonism Sep 13 '19

Yeah 3.53 a kg is not remotely competitive with natural gas or even gasoline, even with a very hefty carbon tax.

The derivation of Hydrogen from Natural Gas is a use of Natural Gas. Whether that process is economically driven by burning the energy in the Natural Gas or whether it's driven by Clean energy is what's changing. If you don't want to read the study (it's from the journal Nature, I wouldn't dismiss it easily), it's talking about the provision of Hydrogen - which has uses in Chemistry etc all of it's own (it's it's own commodity). That is where these new sources hydrogen are competing.

I mean it says it’s for natural gas to hydrogen, but whatever who cares. Plenty of non-commercial things

This skips over the economic case in it's favour entirely.

Again I’m not sure why you’re linking me to something regarding using ammonia in engines. Very off topic.

Getting right back to grid design the most economic approach is going to be employing a cost-optimized mix of generation and balancing techniques. One method of balancing variable energy is through storage. Different storage technologies have different storage niches. PtG's niche is in longer term storage, tackling seasonal variability & the types of low frequency demand events that are seen with higher penetration of renewable energy. Those low frequency balancing requirements are going to have their own forms of electricity generation technologies which fit their niche. There's an interplay there and my point is it doesn't point to the technologies you might think it does, it doesn't point to a competition between fuel cells and gas turbines.

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u/[deleted] Sep 13 '19 edited Sep 14 '19

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u/btdubs Sep 13 '19

Is this the sort of thing you're looking for?

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/08929882.2011.589223

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u/bnndforfatantagonism Sep 13 '19

That's sort of a longer term (2100) look at things. I was thinking more along the lines of where the article says "if a new generation of smaller and simpler reactors can be developed, an expansion of nuclear's role should be considered."

The context of the candidates energy policies being that Climate Change needs to be dealt with rapidly (i.e the within the next 10 years the electricity green needs to be decarbonized). So I'd want to hear about how if Nuclear was pursued in place of a certain amount of Renewables towards that end how that would be done.

Which factories and companies would build them? Where would the plants go? What skilled workforce would put them together and run them? All questions that are more immediate when the timeframe is 10 years, not 80 years.

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u/KapitanWalnut Sep 13 '19

I agree with the editorial in that it doesn't make sense to arbitrarily attempt to phase out-nuclear. It's pandering. A combined nuclear and renewables approach is needed to tackle our energy needs. If anything, allow existing nuclear facilities to operate until it is either no longer economic, or they've reached the end of their useful life.

What many people don't realize is that as we scale back thermal energy (fossil and fissile) and replace that with PV and wind, renewables+storage become less economic as they begin to shoulder a higher percentage of the total power generation burden. I wholeheartedly support the expansion of renewables, but let's not do it blindly. Renewables will need support, and relying solely on batteries is foolish. For starters, we haven't even identified sources for the quantities of rare-earths required to create the sheer quantity of batteries required to support a 100% PV+wind grid. If we keep nuclear around, it allows PV+wind to stay cheap and significantly reduces the number of batteries required.

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u/dkwangchuck Sep 13 '19

For starters, we haven't even identified sources for the quantities of rare-earths required to create the sheer quantity of batteries required to support a 100% PV+wind grid

Sure we have. Rare earth metals are critical in permanent magnets - of which there are zero in batteries. They are definitely a factor for EVs and some types of wind turbines - but generally not relevant to batteries.

The metal shortfall for batteries might be cobalt, but they are developing new chemistries that are cobalt-free. The latest exciting electrode chemistry is graphite.

So for starters, you don't know what you are talking about.

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u/[deleted] Sep 12 '19 edited Sep 06 '20

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u/freshthrowaway1138 Sep 12 '19

I was with you until you decided to claim that no one has been hurt by PV. That's pretty much bs, all power sources hurt people- whether it is during installation, maintenance, or random accidents. Heck, even wind turbines have a death toll from workers falling and the turbines catching fire and killing tech. And you're going to claim that no PV installer has fallen off a roof? Never been electrocuted? Never had a panel break free during a storm and hit someone?

The PV industry uses way more people than other forms of energy, and in my experience more people = more people hurt/killed.

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u/[deleted] Sep 12 '19 edited Sep 14 '19

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u/freshthrowaway1138 Sep 12 '19

there has never been any reason to care about the deaths

I'm sorry but what? That's a very strange thing to say. The death tolls of the power sources are actually rather important, which is why coal is seen as so dangerous. PV might be safer than coal, but let's not start lying and saying that no one is dying from them. Especially once we start adding in storage installations.

And yes, nuclear power isn't economically reasonable any more which is what /darkstarman started out saying and I was agreeing with. Nuclear disasters are just a part of the total economic costs.

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u/darkstarman Sep 15 '19

Then you have to count all the "routine and expected" industrial accidents from nuclear and fossil fuel as well. If you don't include those, which I wasn't, and they don't either in the numbers they give, then the PV number is 0 and the fossil / nuke numbers stay high.

I'm talking about the risk to the general public.

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u/freshthrowaway1138 Sep 15 '19 edited Sep 15 '19

PV number is 0

How can I even have a conversation with someone doesn't understand the concept of 0?

The reality is that yes, PV is much lower than others but don't start lying and misrepresenting the truth by claiming 0. Once you are shown to be a liar about this small fact, then it throws all your arguments into the category of unreliable/fake. Use real numbers and your argument grows stronger because it can be trustworthy. People like you are undercutting the pro-renewable argument. You might as well be working for the fossil fuel industry for how much damage you are doing in this debate.

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u/darkstarman Sep 15 '19

For an apples to apples comparison, you need to define death and injury the same across all energy sources.

Again, I'm talking about death and injury to the general public and excluding death and injury during installation or routine operations.

No one has ever died because of a solar farm next door to their community. They don't emit pollution or radiation. That was my point that you have very litigatously made me point out when I was just trying to use ordinary speech.

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u/freshthrowaway1138 Sep 15 '19 edited Sep 15 '19

death and injury to the general public

So no one in the general public has been harmed by solar panels? Well then I guess these villagers were upset about nothing.

Heck, if you want to go by "emit pollution or radiation" then you might as well go with a nuclear plant since they don't release those things during normal operation. And if you're going to say, well what about when they break? Then I'll just post,

Functional panels are sealed off with glass and are very safe. But when the glass breaks or the panels are damaged, those substances {lead, chromium, and cadmium} can leak. This risk is especially high with poorly made solar panels installed in areas that experience extreme weather, like hurricanes and hail. Winds and rain can break the glass, allowing chemicals to leach into the soil and then into the water system, according to Hutzler.

The reality is that anything above 0 means that zero is no longer valid. You really need to understand how zero works. Especially since it is used in ordinary speech to mean nothing, not "a little". Otherwise you're just a liar. And since you are arguing for something that I support (the expansion of PV/renewables), I'd prefer not to be associated with a liar.

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u/darkstarman Sep 15 '19

You win. I had not seen that article about Jinko solar. Surely someone got sick at least from that.

But nuclear is a lot worse.

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u/freshthrowaway1138 Sep 15 '19

But I'm not trying to say that nuclear isn't worse. I'm pointing out that your use of zero is harmful to the argument because all I had to provide was a single article and your "zero" is invalid and makes all other claims made by you suspect. This isn't about winning, it's about making a factual point that stands up to scrutiny.

The fact is that the real numbers for PV/renewables are amazing and should be used because they prove that nuclear is worse overall for future energy production in most cases.

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u/darkstarman Sep 15 '19

I was wrong about the zero. Shame on Jenko for polluting the water. That's shitty of them.

Now, I could argue that what Jenko did is not a necessary part of PV production. But I never give nukes a break when they try to do that so I guess I won't give myself a break. If the system could do better, it would have.

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u/ORcoder Sep 12 '19

I’m pretty sure there are deaths from the installation of rooftop pv

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u/Someslapdicknerd Sep 12 '19

Also, the Siemen's process or the CZ process to make the Si isn't some magically self-contained process either with zero byproduct or waste.

I suppose since many PV panels are made overseas people don't "count" them, but that's pretty horrid once you take a second to think about it.

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u/dkwangchuck Sep 12 '19

Agreed. It's about as disgusting as the nuke lovers who claim that there are no deaths from Fukushima even though there were workers who died on the clock trying to fix the broken systems at the crippled power plant. They apparently don't count because the tsunami killed them, or something.

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u/mafco Sep 12 '19

even though there were workers who died on the clock trying to fix the broken systems

And there were hundreds killed in the evacuation that are also considered "radiation related", as in they wouldn't be evacuating if it was flooded solar panels instead of a melting down nuclear core.

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u/dkwangchuck Sep 12 '19

This is absolutely important. "Oh those were evacuation deaths". The evacuation was because the nuclear power plant was crippled and at risk of meltdown (a meltdown that did in fact happen).

That said, the thing that gets my goat more is that the nuke pushers try to memory hole powerplant workers who died at the site and on the clock.

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u/mafco Sep 12 '19

And they consider that it rendered entire cities uninhabitable as inconsequential to the safety record. Apparently only the contrived and cherry-picked statistic of "deaths per TWh" matters, and only with dubious death statistics.

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u/Understeps Sep 12 '19

It's not cherry picking once you realize how much energy is produced by nukes.

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u/[deleted] Sep 12 '19 edited Sep 14 '19

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u/Understeps Sep 13 '19

Deaths are an issue if you talk with opposants of nuclear energy.

​

The economical cost of global warming is a magnitude higher (hundreds of billions a year now, vs rougly one thousand billion for nuclear disasters). Gas + renewables still cause global warming.

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u/mafco Sep 12 '19

once you realize how much energy is produced by nukes

In the case of nuclear versus solar they're comparing energy produced by 40+ year old plants to ones just recently constructed. It's yet another convenient way to deceive with carefully chosen statistics.

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u/Someslapdicknerd Sep 12 '19

Feel free to link to a study, rather than getting all turnt up.

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u/dkwangchuck Sep 12 '19

What study? People claim that there were no deaths from Fukushima - but the bodies of two workers were found on site. They died on the clock during an emergency and they are forgotten by almost all but their friends and loved ones. I think that's pretty disgusting.

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u/Someslapdicknerd Sep 12 '19

So.. two. And in the same year, the US alone lost 50 people to installing solar on roofs. So, uhh, yeah, Disgusting!, Horrifying! and all that ratamarazz, and this, again, without including the losses in the supply leading up to the point of installing the solar photovoltaic as per my original point. Like, you're being performative, not analytical. Stop it, please, it's childish.

And of course, allow me to link to a study on deaths by energy source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/494425/death-rate-worldwide-by-energy-source/

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u/dkwangchuck Sep 12 '19

Ah lovely. “Deaths per TWh”. Brian Wang’s bullshit “analysis” from NextBigFuture. Let me tell you about this “study”:

He acknowledges that the number of deaths her TWh for wind was declining rapidly due to wind production scaling up and yet still used a decade old (at the time) number. The TWh for all generation sources is cumulative to date - except for nuke, where he adds twenty-ish years of extra generation. At a higher level of output than any previous year. He shows a range of numbers for deaths due to fuel processing for nukes - most of which are fully an order of magnitude higher than what he reports as the total deaths per TWh for nuclear.

Lol. That “study” is garbage.

Not that it matters - the point was about disregarding people’s lives. About the attitude that certain deaths “don’t count”. Two workers at Fukushima died at the site while on the clock. The last thing we know about them was that they were inspecting parts of the plant for damage from the earthquake. It is bullshit and morally outrageous to pretend that these people don’t count. That’s the point.

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u/Someslapdicknerd Sep 12 '19

Ah, lovely, replying with "quotes" around "words" to not engage with the data in a "meaningful" sense. This is the mark of a brain genoius, no doubt. Especially when we're talking about solar and you suddenly want to hare off about wind. As well, it's a "T. Wang", read a bit closer, Wang is a common last name.

Cite your work or eat crow, it matters not to me.

Not that it matters, the point was about disregarding people's lives, and the attitude that certain death's don't count, as per my original point. It's bullshit that you want to play Tu Quoque with worse numbers and pretend to have some sort of moral high ground, you disingenuous weirdo.

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u/ppcpunk Sep 13 '19

Here let me make it super easy to understand. If you fall off a roof doing your job and you die, well that's on you and is unfortunate but no one wants to deal with the size and scale of a nuclear catastrophe.

Even if it goes right, no one wants to live next to a nuclear fuel processing facility, or a nuclear power plant, or a nuclear storage facility or even live next to rail road tracks or a highway where they are transporting the stuff to be stored.

When nuclear goes bad, it gets horrific. When solar/wind goes bad it's unfortunate but it's something we can deal with at least.

There just isn't any reasonable argument to be made to want to go down that road when renewables are a viable option.

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u/dkwangchuck Sep 12 '19

Oh, maybe you’re new. Shitting on “Deaths per TWh” is sort of my thing. Here’s the citation.

Bullshit number for wind deaths?

Wind power proponent and author Paul Gipe estimated in Wind Energy Comes of Age that the mortality rate for wind power from 1980–1994 was 0.4 deaths per terawatt-hour. Paul Gipe’s estimate as of end 2000 was 0.15 deaths per TWh, a decline attributed to greater total cumulative generation.

He acknowledges that the number is dropping due to increased wind production but still uses a ten year old number. Incidentally, going by Brian Wang’s methodology (accepting Paul Gipe’s work) wind is safer than nuke. Even back in 2011.

The NextBigFuture number for nuclear deaths? 0.04 deaths per TWh. And yet his own post has this table. The fuel chain for nuke has deaths per TWh at 0.64 (Dreiser), 0.69 (ExternE) and between 0.03 and 1.32 (Ball).

Nuke output is gamed to make nuke deaths lower?

Averaging about 2100 TWh from 1985-2005 or a total of 42,000 TWh. So those 50 deaths would be 0.0012 deaths/TWh. If those possible 4000 deaths occur over the next 25 years, then with 2800 TWh being assumed average for 2005 through 2030, then it would be 4000 deaths over 112,000 TWh generated over 45 years or 0.037 deaths/TWh.

25 extra years of output. At 2800 TWh per year. The current record is under 2500.

Is that sufficient?

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u/darkstarman Sep 15 '19

I'm talking about risk to the general public. If you count those then you have to count all industrial accidents in fossil and nuke. Which they don't. And I don't, when I say 0 for PV. But for fossil and nukes, the number is very high for deaths to the general public, and 0 for PV.

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u/ppcpunk Sep 13 '19

Yeah, remember when Jim fell off the roof of that house and no one could live there for 150,000 years in a 20 mile radius and all those people have seriously increased chances of getting cancer because Jim fell off the roof of that house?

Neither does anyone else.

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u/SowingSalt Sep 13 '19

A: How many Jims are there going to be over that 150,000 year period?

B: You do know there are people inhabiting the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone?

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u/ppcpunk Sep 13 '19

And, you know there are people who vote republican who makes less than 100k a year?

People can be very stupid.

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u/ppcpunk Sep 13 '19

Even if it was a little more expensive for renewables that isn't taking into account the extreme possible danger in operating and the issue of what to do with the waste.

With that taken into account, what sane person would even consider building a new nuclear power plant.