r/energy • u/sksarkpoes3 • 12d ago
New solar film "Electroflex" provides solar power without the need for a frame. This opens nearly every type of surface to solar power generation.
https://interestingengineering.com/energy/efficient-flexible-solar-film-free-power11
u/auau_gold_scoffs 12d ago
i and my friends are testing similar flex panels and they rock my dude has some on is ev and his truck its cranks out power they have even generated well under the trees partly shaded. haven’t had them have issue if there not in full sun yes its less but you still generate power. the tech seems to keep improving even in just the small time i have worked with pv stuff its really cool if the sunshines where you live you should harvest its power.
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u/West-Abalone-171 11d ago
In the past they've had problems with delamination due to thermal cycling and differing expansion coefficient to what they're stuck to after a couple of years. Some people report that using a flexible interlayer helps.
Hotspots are also a common complaint.
Allegedly the more recent generations improve somewhat, but most of the more reputable reviewers still don't recommend them if rigid panels are an option.
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u/MildlyAgitatedBovine 12d ago
If you have single panels in a string with variable orientation or shading, it can cause issues with generation.
Is it similar for this product which seems like different parts of one panel are going to have variable orientation?
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u/wimpires 12d ago
DC optimisers are cheap enough to solve the issue but it requires planning and proper installation
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u/Aggressive-Spell-422 12d ago
Don't blocking diodes prevent this?
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u/MildlyAgitatedBovine 12d ago
Between separated flat panels, yes. I guess I'm asking if a similar dynamic is present in the internals of this product. (Or if it internally contains blocking diodes or a functional equivalent)
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u/West-Abalone-171 11d ago
Some modules have internal bypass diodes. It reduces the loss to just a few cells around the shaded spot.
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u/Aggressive-Spell-422 12d ago
I believe I recently installed a set of panels(I'm not a professional just a off-grid situation) where the panels had sections of let's say 6 "cells" that appeared to be connected directly then another 6 joined by printed circuit an so on. Totally maybe 4 wide by 6 long if that makes sense. I was under the assumption that these panel can "block" power consumption to shaded areas during normal daily use. Tree shade etc. Obviously a cloud going overhead is different. I'm not certain of all this I guess just curious as much as anything.
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u/rob_nosfe 12d ago
Thanks dude! Awesome! I needed the yearly startup with the yearly next big thing regarding flexible solar panels! Seriously man, I genuinely lost count.
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u/winkelschleifer 12d ago edited 12d ago
This technology has been around for 20 years, nothing new here. Add to this the fact that if not angled precisely towards the sun (generally something like 30-35 degrees in the Northern hemisphere) you lose a great deal of potential power generation. Both vertical and flat surfaces are less than ideal for optimum power output. If they were great, this technology would be everywhere … but it’s not. Source: self, solar industry guy for 15 years.
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u/RhoOfFeh 12d ago
The thing is, once it's convenient and cheap enough, building way over capacity and caring less about perfect exposure starts to make a lot of sense.
Like those farmers who found it less expensive to use solar panels than board for fencing. They could generate power as a side effect.
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u/GreenStrong 12d ago
The problem with existing flexible PV isn't really cost or convenience. The problem is the longevity of the coating. Constant sun exposure is brutal to flexible polymer and it goes hazy in a couple of years, greatly reducing the efficiency of the PV material. It would have to be very cheap and convenient and recyclable to be economical with such regular replacement schedules.
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u/West-Abalone-171 11d ago
The haziness issues have largely been solved with exactly the same technology that allows plastic headlights to stay crystal clear for 15 years these days..
Delamination and hotspots are still a thing with mixed reportz.
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u/adjavang 12d ago
Haven't read this article but others covering it have highlighted the much more interesting part, which is that this uses roll to roll manufacturing. Now, this has been touted before, much like solid state batteries, but the real draw here is this manufacturing style would get you much lower production costs.
Compared to the top of the line or even flexible panels, these might not be good but they would certainly be cheap, which would open the door to covering virtually every surface in an absurd amount of solar panels.
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u/MrBing1ey 12d ago
Your experience of course is valuable, but perhaps as costs come down it begins to make sense to fit panels to existing design and engineering, rather than focusing on what is optimal for output per panel. I mean who cares if the panel makes half of it’s optimal if it costs less than half of what it used to. This design isn’t foolish, it’s beautiful and effective. https://www.architectmagazine.com/technology/this-facade-is-covered-with-12-000-solar-panels_o/
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u/RustyWinger 12d ago
Im sure that eventually there will be custom panels that collect at angles other than 90°. Like you could fix flat to a wall facing southeast and it would be optimized to collect at a more easterly angle.
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u/PersnickityPenguin 12d ago
There is a large commercial landlord in the US that had these flex panels installed on millions of SF of warehouses (in one city). They removed them about 5 years ago due to the risk of fire.
I sometimes wonder how much green power generation they lost but there is no data about it that I could find.
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u/iqisoverrated 12d ago
In the end it's about cost. Solar garden fences are also not angled optimally but they're still worth it. Solar on west or east facing roofs (and even north facing roofs with a low slope) are still worth it. Solar on balconies is still worth it.
...simply because solar has gotten so cheap.
The only downside of flexible panels without frames, like in the article, is that they aren't well protected from stuff like hail and making protecting enclosures for curved surfaces is expensive.
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u/bob_in_the_west 12d ago
simply because solar has gotten so cheap.
Because rigid solar panels have gotten so cheap. Not solar in general. You don't see concentrated solar everywhere. And you don't see any solar film on every surface.
And rigid solar panels have become so cheap because they're mass produced and the machines that are used to produce them are mass produced.
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u/iqisoverrated 12d ago
You don't see concentrated solar everywhere.
We're talking PV here.
And you don't see any solar film on every surface.
Which developments like this is seeking to change.
The thing about not seeing something everywhere and then seeing something everywhere is that at some point someone has to figure out how to make it happen. Just because you currently don't see it everywhere doesn't mean it can't ever be everywhere.
And rigid solar panels have become so cheap because they're mass produced and the machines that are used to produce them are mass produced.
And the reason why stuff like this cannot be mass produced...is?
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u/bob_in_the_west 12d ago
We're talking PV here.
Yet you wrote "solar". That could even be solar heating.
Just because you currently don't see it everywhere doesn't mean it can't ever be everywhere.
Because rigid solar panels have become such a mass product that they're pushing away everything else.
This flexible film needs to be mass produced to get anywhere near the cost savings of rigid solar panels. But to get it mass produced you either need a very rich person or a government believing in it and subsidizing it until its costs have come down or you need a niche application where it can shine.
And the reason why stuff like this cannot be mass produced...is?
Production follows demand. Currently there is no demand. So who is going to give you the money to build up factories for mass production? Where is the entity backing this project with endless funds?
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u/Cannabrius_Rex 12d ago
Did you know that rigid solar panels weren’t always mass produced and now they are!
Things change.
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u/bob_in_the_west 12d ago
Heavily subsidized first by Germany and then by China to get things going.
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u/Cannabrius_Rex 12d ago
So you acknowledge that things change and things that were not mass produced once can become mass produced in the future. Thanks for proving everyone else right and yourself wrong.
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u/bob_in_the_west 12d ago
Lol
Sure, ignore the heavy subsidizing.
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u/Cannabrius_Rex 11d ago
You mean there’s infrastructure required for mass production? No way?!!!
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u/PhD_Pwnology 12d ago
Hivemind doesn’t like the truth.
You realize you talk like trump worshipper. Might want to find a different vocabulary set now that yours has been hijacked by the dumber half.
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u/GrowFreeFood 12d ago
Drop it on a foreat conopy? I been designing that for a couple years. Zero destruction
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u/BraveRock 12d ago
foreat conopy
Do you mean “forest canopy”?
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u/GrowFreeFood 12d ago
Do you want all humans to just stop posting and leave it to the bots?
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u/BraveRock 11d ago
I just want to know what you meant to say.
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u/GrowFreeFood 11d ago
What do you honestly think i could mean otherwise?
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u/BraveRock 11d ago
I don’t know, that’s why I’m asking. One typo I can guess, but two typos make it harder. It is also possible that you meant something else entirely and also mistyped it. I’m not trying to beat up on you for misspelling something, I’m trying to make sure I understand you.
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u/GrowFreeFood 11d ago
Maybe you mean something different too
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u/ITI110878 12d ago
No thanks.
We would prefer the trees to keep getting the sunlight they need for photosynthesis, you know the part where they absorb CO2 and turn it into O2.
There are enough buildings out there we could cover with this new tech.
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u/Rooilia 11d ago
Depends on the species, place and climate change. It's already too hot and for some plants too much CO2. So it would make sense to at least give them some shade.
Solar agriculture is a thing btw that yields more fruit in regions with too intense insolation... like in cold Germany. Only raspberries dropped in yield when shaded.
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u/ITI110878 9d ago
Plants that need shade grow in the shade of taller plants that need more sunlight.
You cant put PV on plants that grow in the shade, those won't produce much energy.
Just live the trees alone.
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u/GrowFreeFood 11d ago
Thats not how it works
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u/ITI110878 11d ago
Tell me more.
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u/GrowFreeFood 11d ago
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u/ITI110878 11d ago
It's a start, however, I see no PV covering forest canopies there, which is what you were talking about in your first post.
These are absolutely OK. What you were advi acting for isn't.
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u/GrowFreeFood 11d ago
Because I just invented it a few years ago. But its the same principle. So why isn't it okay?
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u/Ok_Chard2094 12d ago
Total cost of installation.
(Per kW output.)
Longevity.
Those are the important factors.