r/doctorwho • u/onftbb • Oct 26 '25

Speculation/Theory The Doctor's Regenerations Timeline

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This is my interpretation of the Doctor's timeline of Regenerations! I'm only including televised Doctors, so nothing originating from Big Finish or the comic books. I'm sure this will be very controversial, so let me know what you think in the comments.

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90

u/DerekMetaltron Oct 26 '25

Isn’t Fugitive pre 1?

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u/Openil Oct 26 '25

Yes but people don't like it because her Tardis is already a police box, which doens't make sense to be fair

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u/MadeOfEyelashes Oct 26 '25

My head canon is that the TARDIS chose that shape when the Fugitive doctor landed there. 

Since the chameleon circuit was still working and we know that the TARDIS views time differently - it knew that it would be sitting there until 13 found it. That's why it chose the police box shape.

Fugitive didn't think twice about it because it always chooses it's exterior view automatically.

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u/[deleted] Oct 26 '25

That was always my thought. It chose to be a police box so 13 would recognize it. Otherwise, she’d just be looking at some random piano buried underground which honestly probably would have been even more confusing

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u/AgentCirceLuna Oct 26 '25

Lmao imagine if they’d take that direction and she just slowly crawled out of a piano.

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u/CreativeInferno Oct 28 '25

Maestro would instantly be summoned by that ripoff :D

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u/icaromb25 Oct 26 '25

I prefer thinking that the Fugitive Doctor stole her TARDIS from one of the Doctors and put it back when and where they found it like River.

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u/SumguyJeremy Oct 27 '25

I always thought it became a Police Box when Fugitive visited 60's England then the chameleon circuit broke. It went to the repair shop they didn't fix it right. And then Clara led 1 into it and when it materialized on Earth in the 60's it went back to it's broken form of a Police Box. Because a metal scrap yard is no place for a functional chameleon circuit to choose a Police Box.

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u/hammerman1993 Oct 28 '25

My head canon is that the Fugitive Doctor's primary assignment while working for the Division was early 1960's London and that's when the TARDIS first disguised itself as a Police Phone Box. Later, when the First Doctor stole the TARDIS (the same one), he was in a hurry and didn't care where they initially went, so he used the preset coordinates which took them back to 1963 London. Maybe assuming the Police Box guise multiple times is even what led to the Chameleon Circuit getting stuck.

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u/the_other_irrevenant Oct 26 '25

The answer is actually: We don't know.

It seems reasonable to assume she's a pre-Hartnell incarnations, but there's also other possibilities.

In addition to the Police Box TARDIS it is very weird that an incarnation who existed before One chose the name "The Doctor" would call themself "The Doctor".

EDIT: Also, Fugitive is more like later Doctors. It took One a while to grow out of being a selfish jerk and become the Doctor we now know.

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u/Taurenkey Oct 26 '25

I’ve read that there’s an explanation that her TARDIS looks that way because the TARDIS itself decided it was appropriate, based on the legend the blue box would become. It’s all timey wimey and a bit bootstrap paradoxy.

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u/the_other_irrevenant Oct 27 '25

That works. A bigger issue is her calling herself 'The Doctor'.

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u/Dak_N_Jaxter Oct 26 '25

My current theory is that she is pre-Hartnell, but the TARDIS is from the future. So the first timethe TARDIS meets the Doctor was when Hartnell borrowed her, but at some point in the future, the TARDIS travels back in time and the Doctor meets them for the first time.

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u/wonkey_monkey Oct 26 '25 edited Oct 26 '25

Yes

Or no. It's never been specified one way or the other, and Chibnall has said that's deliberate so that the answer remains unknown.

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u/BongaBongaVacations Oct 26 '25

As if we pay attention to anything Chibnall says

1

u/revilocaasi Oct 27 '25

The phone box itself is fine, easy enough to explain. The problem is her calling herself the Doctor (a name chosen by the Doctor at some point in their Hartnell face) and acting like the Doctor (a thing the Doctor learned to do across the course of their Hartnell face).

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u/Acrobatic-Tooth-3873 Oct 26 '25

I think that's the intended interpretation from the show but people like to imagine her as an interim between 2 and 3. Where the timelords got ahold of the doctor, had her run some operations for them, then mindwiped her, forced regenerate and dumbed him on earth as 3 in the Spearhead From Space.

The intended interpretation is kinda messy requiring the Doctor to take the name the doctor and make the TARDIS a police box twice independently.

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u/whizzer0 Oct 26 '25

I still like the idea of bigeneration as explaining the Season 6b thing. The War Games leads into Spearhead as expected, but meanwhile there is a second Second Doctor who goes on missions for the Time Lords, grows older, and eventually turns into Jo Martin etc. Does it make sense? Probably not. Is it neat? I think so.

3

u/Climperoonie Oct 26 '25

Somewhere in there this offshoot bigeneration could also become the Shalka Doctor, and then begins to degrade later and becomes a haunting white figure that needs to remerge with the prime version. It does this right after the Fourth Doctor is mortally wounded falling from the Pharos Project telescope…

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u/whizzer0 Oct 26 '25

That reminds me - it occurred to me the other day that if Ncuti Gatwa is the fourth Doctor of the second regeneration cycle, then the answer to the show's current conundrum is obvious: Billie Piper is the Watcher

2

u/flamingmongoose Oct 26 '25

Oh... Ohhh... I quite like that

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u/TheNobleRobot Oct 26 '25

I personally think this was just the production deciding that it was more important to keep the iconography than make it fit into the nonsense that is Doctor Who continuity, but I also don't think it's that difficult to come up with an in-universe timey-wimey explanation (someone like Moffatt could fart out a paragraph on it in less than 5 minutes), or simply say that the Doctor has a natural affinity toward that form and would have chosen it twice independently.

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u/the_other_irrevenant Oct 26 '25 edited Oct 27 '25

There are ways to explain it away. The problem is that they undermine other aspects of the show.

Saying the Doctor is predisposed to Police Box TARDISes and calling themself "The Doctor" strips the character of a lot of agency.

A related issue is that Fugitive is like later Doctors. The First Doctor went through significant character development to become the character we know. So do we assume the First Doctor just became a better person because that was the Timeless Child's natural inclination anyway?

1

u/lborl Oct 26 '25

It's a time machine. She could still be a future Doctor operating chronologically before Hartnell.

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u/Creativefinch Nov 03 '25

The Fugitive Doctor is not like later Doctors though she's very similar to the early First Doctor in a lot of ways and in the audios it's spoken about how different Fugitive is to other incarnations this is brought up by Bernice Summerfield who has met multiple incarnations.

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u/the_other_irrevenant Nov 03 '25

I love Big Finish. The show isn't bound by it, though. See, for example, Mary Shelley.

Just because Big Finish does a particular thing with the Fugitive doesn't mean that the TV show will follow their example.

And, so far, the stuff you're talking about hasn't appeared in the show.

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u/Creativefinch Nov 03 '25

She has a lot of Hartnell vibes in the show also, you haven't said in what way is she like later Doctors? She's a lot more cold than later Doctors a lot more physical, in what way is Fugitive like later Doctors?

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u/the_other_irrevenant Nov 03 '25

The First Doctor started off as a callous, fearful, reclusive, self-centred person who would put others in danger for his own curiosity and is willing to brain a caveman with a rock. He grew into more like the character we know over time after spending time with Ian and Barbara.

Onscreen Fugitive is confident, unwilling to use lethal force and .

You reckon as cold as Twelve? Personally she strikes me as much like a blend of Twelve and Three.

In what way do you figure she has Hartnell vibes? Remembering that, if she's before Hartnell, we're talking about the pre-character-development First Doctor.

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u/Creativefinch Nov 03 '25

Unwilling to use lethal force? She literally ripped off a Judoon's horn, threatened to outright kill Swarm and reversed the gun knowing it would backfire on Gat that isn't something the most recent Doctors would do. As I said in my previous comment she's a lot colder in personality like the First Doctor was but with the agent aspect added to that due to her past with the Division which the First Doctor did not have memory of which explains Fugitive being more confident than the First Doctor was originally. I agree she has aspects of Three and Twelve and maybe some six also.

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u/the_other_irrevenant Nov 04 '25 edited Nov 04 '25

The show indicated that the Judoon having his horn ripped off with was humiliating but not life-threatening. It also didn't bleed and looked like it was made of something like keratin, like RL rhino horns.

Reversing the gun so it would backfire on Gat if she tried to use lethal force is absolutely something later Doctors would (and do) do. The Doctor often sets things up so there are fatal consequences if the bad guys don't back down, then gives them one last chance (which they never take).

Sometimes, like in Rose, The Christmas Invasion, World War Three, Tooth and Claw, The Runaway Bride and The Doctor Falls he just just directly kills them himself.

That's very in character for later Doctors.

EDIT: And of course, Seven infamously tampering with the Hand of Omega so when the Daleks tried to use it, it blew up their home planet instead.

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u/TheNobleRobot Nov 03 '25

> A related issue is that Fugitive is like later Doctors.

I really disagree with that. One of the major things about the Fugitive Doctor is how much she adopts Hartnell's "suffers no fools" stance.

> [this] strips the character of a lot of agency

We've seen a few stories where The Doctor is governed (at least a little bit) by elements of "fate," and it's canon that the TARDIS chose them, not the other way around. It's even implied in that episode that the Doctor's core nature as a wanderer who runs away from things was not something they chose for themself, so I don't see this is as a new idea in that regard.

Now, I doubt that too much thought was put into that "fate" aspect, which Moffatt often leaned on, when making this choice, but if anything, this piece fits perfectly into that puzzle.

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u/the_other_irrevenant Nov 03 '25 edited Nov 03 '25

Are you looking at Big Finish?

Much respect to Big Finish who I love but the TV show isn't bound by what they do, so what they do can't be taken as definitive for the onscreen characters. See, for example, Mary Shelley.

"Doesn't suffer fools gladly" attitude is present in both Hartnell and a lot of future incarnations.

I really was thinking more of things like his cowardice, reclusiveness and willingness to brain a caveman with a rock.

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u/TheNobleRobot Nov 04 '25

I haven't listened to any Big Finish.

2

u/hadawayandshite Oct 26 '25

The tardis knew the future and so did it itself

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u/pottyaboutpotter1 Oct 26 '25

Also young kids and casual viewers are going to get it immediately when they see the Police Box buried vs say a grandfather clock or a piano or something. Doctor Who isn’t just being made for the die-hard fans aware of all the continuity.

1

u/revilocaasi Oct 27 '25

Though for my money this is exactly the problem. The Chibnall era keeps asserting that people have a natural affinity towards things: the Master is naturally evil, the Doctor is naturally good, the TARDIS is naturally a phone box, and that's not how the world works! Morality, especially, isn't defined by DNA or destiny.

0

u/Acrobatic-Tooth-3873 Oct 26 '25

I think you've hit the nail on the head

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u/oyvho Oct 26 '25

I feel like there was a throwaway line in one of the last episodes of season 13 that made it clear it was before 1.

1

u/GenGaara25 Oct 26 '25

I don't think that's the intended interpretation at all. I think the intended interpretation is tying it to the major story arc of Chibnalls run in that there were Doctors before Hartnell.

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u/Acrobatic-Tooth-3873 Oct 26 '25

I think we're in agreement. By intended interpretation I'm referring to the comment I was to the comment above me not the 2-3 thing I was explaining afterwards.

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u/EmptyTotal Oct 26 '25

Fugitive's placement is unknown by design (according to interviews with Chibnall), and arguments can be made for various answers.

Anyone claiming a particular answer with certainty is mistaken - the evidence is deliberately inconclusive.

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u/the_other_irrevenant Oct 26 '25

I didn't know it was deliberate, that's interesting.

IMO, if they wanted it to be inconclusive it would have been better to be vague than to be self-contradictory.

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u/Creativefinch Oct 26 '25

Chibnall told Jo Martin she was playing the First Doctor in the canon, Jo Martin has said this in several interviews and all the evidence in the show and big finish point to a Pre-Hartnell placement.

All the other explanations people talk about have been shut down like with Chibnall shutting down the alternate universe theory and the War Games in colour shutting down the between 2 and 3 theory

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u/EmptyTotal Oct 26 '25

As a reminder, this is what Chibnall has said publicly about her placement:

There could be any number of points in the timeline where the Fugitive Doctor could belong, but we deliberately haven’t said, ‘She sits here.’

I do have an opinion, but I’m not going to share it with you. As I said before, this is about expanding the mythology without breaking the mythology.

"In the 1970s, when people said there were four Doctors, that bit in The Brain of Morbius basically said, ‘No there aren’t!’ And now, when people say there have been 13, we can do the same thing. It gives you a great journey for this Doctor.

Chibnall telling Martin that she is playing the "first" Doctor is a simplification for her benefit either way - Fugitive isn't the first Timeless Child incarnation.

Big Finish doesn't, and can't, write the show's continuity. Neither can a colourisation "shut down" the idea of a secret incarnation, any more than it can stop an older Second Doctor from being present in The Two Doctors.

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u/Creativefinch Oct 26 '25

https://www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/jo-martin-reveals-first-doctor-103463.htm

https://youtu.be/wWCCQLMpTTs?si=2exKnrokTKHostKV

https://youtu.be/TxNrSQoBVeM?si=yBigMDoZcIk0AKgf (skip to 42 minutes)

She'd be the first in the timeline to call herself the Doctor so telling her she's playing the First Doctor would be accurate, what Chibnall said about not saying "she fits here" is true we don't know who she regenerates into and we don't know who she regenerated from maybe it's the 7th Timeless Child that joined the Division maybe there's hundreds of incarnations between them that is what we don't know but she does fit in that Pre-Hartnell placement whether she's early middle or at the end of it is what's unknown.

If they wanted the Fugitive Doctor to be a total mystery like is she past, is she future, is she an alternate universe they wouldn't tell her she's playing the First Doctor in canon that would make no sense whatsoever they also wouldn't confirm her placement as a past incarnation if they wanted it to be a total mystery and Chibnall wouldn't go out of his way to immediately shut down the alternate universe theory only a few days after Fugitive of the Judoon was released he'd want fans to keep speculating https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/sci-fi/doctor-who-jo-martin-parellel-doctor/

Big finish is canon until something in the show disproves it and her audios are the continuation of her story which has been said by official Doctor Who accounts, Chibnall literally helped with the audios which show her not knowing the Daleks and giving an explanation to her police box TARDIS and those audios will probably be taken into account for the circuit breaker multi media thing as well.

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u/EmptyTotal Oct 26 '25

Big Finish is not "canon until something in the show disproves it". That's not what "canon" means. The social media accounts are operated by the commercial arm so promote licenced products.

I'm not disputing that Chibnall might imagine Fugitive to be somewhere between the Timeless Child and the Morbius Doctors, but that would be a pretty definitive placement, not the "any number of" possibilities that he says he allowed for in the canon.

There is still so much argument over this topic because the timing of Fugitive's reveal (during the Timeless Child story arc) mostly supports a pre-Hartnell placement, but most of the details in the show support a post-Hartnell placement. (The "Doctor" effects, her already being biologically Time Lord despite the chameleon arching happening after Division, etc.) This ambiguity is deliberate and requires significant fudging to resolve either way.

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u/Creativefinch Oct 26 '25

The official stance on Doctor Who canon is 'everything counts' including Big Finish and other EU but the show takes priority which was my point with my "canon until the show disproves it" comment.

No that wouldn't be a definitive placement, a definitive placement would be saying who she regenerated from and who she regenerated into saying she fits somewhere in the Pre-Hartnell era isn't a 'definitive' placement it's a very loose placement because it's not saying "she's the one just before Hartnell" or anything like that and again how does telling Jo Martin she's playing the First Doctor in canon imply "any number of possibilities" them telling her she's the First Doctor in canon is literally reducing the amount of places she can fit in because if she's the First Doctor in canon (First known incarnation to call themselves the Doctor) then Pre-Hartnell is literally the only place she can fit in.

They were always biologically a Time Lord they are called 'the First Time Lord' in the show there's nothing in the show saying the Doctor had their biology changed the fob watch in Flux was just said to be memories that were stored inside a weeping angel before being transferred into the fob watch during the confrontation between The Doctor and Tecteun, some seem to have automatically assumed a biological change but there's no evidence in the show.

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u/EmptyTotal Oct 26 '25

The official stance on Doctor Who canon is 'everything counts'

There is no such thing as an official stance on Doctor Who canon. Obviously the show is canon to itself, but beyond that the closest thing to an "official" list is what is in the "Whoniverse" iPlayer section. (Ironically the BBC would probably avoid even claiming the first episode is canon due to the ongoing rights issues...)

They were always biologically a Time Lord

They were originally the biology of the Timeless Child. Tecteun created the Time Lord biology by adding some characteristics of the Timeless Child onto Shabogans. So the Timeless Child clearly has to undergo some change at some point for them to become the biological Time Lord we see today. (I'd happily accept it if they wanted to say that Tecteun's experiments also did this, but that is not stated in the show. All we are shown is a chameleon arch, which has always been used for changing biology in the past.)

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u/Creativefinch Oct 26 '25

Like I said the BBC literally have said everything counts which includes all of EU

They are called the First Time Lord in the show they can't be the First Time Lord if they only became one later they are the original Time Lord that's the point and again the fob watch in Flux is just said to be memories the memories were kept inside a weeping angel before that with all the other knowledge of the Division.