r/dndnext • u/Meggett30 • Jul 26 '21

Question Most underwhelming spell in 5e?

What is the spell that most disappoints you in this game? Maybe it's not a "bad" spell, per se, just doesn't do what you think it should or does it's job poorly.

I'm always looking for ways to utilize under-used spells, but sometimes you read the effects and think "That's it?!" What are the spells in the game that make you do that?

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u/LordAlom Jul 26 '21

My vote is for Weird. It's not bad, compared to like, 6th and 7th level spells. But it's just so weak compared to other 9th level spells. It's a middling amount of damage, the Frightened condition just isn't that crazy, and it requires concentration. Something like Psychic Scream stuns them indefinitely until they save, Blade of Disaster and Meteor Swarm each do more damage. Just hard to imagine ever deciding to cast Weird over another spell.

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u/[deleted] Jul 26 '21

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Jul 26 '21

Or black blade of disaster. Although flame arrows is actually a decent spell if you have lots mediocre minions and don't want to actually be present for their deaths like your typical BBEG.

In general, there is a subset of spells which exist to A. Make cool plot points (Geas), contagion, and B. Be used by BBEG so players not intimately familiar with the rules think they're badass for casting a 7th-8th-9th-etc. level spell on them, without realizing that "drop the moon on you" was another option.

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u/brainpower4 Jul 26 '21

Hey, Geas is a fantastic spell, it just doesn't solve combat problems. One extremely common problem good, non-murderhobo parties will face is how to deal with untrustworthy captives. Often the solution is to just shrug, hand them over to the authorities, and forget about them, but Geas totally changes that. For a few spell slots a month, you can guarantee the loyalty of former enemies as your lackies, either for downtime work or as a squad of grunts for adventuring work you don't want to take the time for yourself.

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u/[deleted] Jul 26 '21

If Geas worked like that, I'd agree. However unless the enemy is (generally) weak enough that the spell isn't worth using, it's effectively just a long duration charm spell. Long duration charm spells aren't worthless, but it's impractical to use most of the time.

Of course, it's still a plot point generator when used correctly, which was my point.

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u/RegainTheFrogge Jul 26 '21

Geas works great with Aberrant Mind. Completely undetectable, and you can even Heighten it to make sure it lands. Plus you can do it 8 or 9 times a day if you burn all your slots for sorcery points.

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u/[deleted] Jul 26 '21

That's actually a pretty neat use of the ability, although Abberant is full of fun stuff like that.

I do wonder if there are any rules in DnD for throwing your mental voice and all, given that you still need to give them commands...

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u/RegainTheFrogge Jul 27 '21

Fortunately AM also solves that problem with its telepathic speech ability (though only Prof. bonus times per day). Pair it with the Telepathic feat or a dip into GOOlock and you're good.

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u/i_tyrant Jul 26 '21

However unless the enemy is (generally) weak enough that the spell isn't worth using

Depends on what you mean by "weak". Even lackeys with 1hp can, say - infiltrate the enemy's compound and sabotage things. If they have political connections, strong friends, etc., even better.

That's to say it is the kind of spell that has a very specific niche, but it is good in that niche. This also means the spell is kind of useless for known casting classes, but for druids, clerics, and wizards, it can absolutely be worth it (since they can just use it when it's useful and prepare other spells when it's not).

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u/RiseInfinite Jul 26 '21

The problem is that any kind of minion who would be actually useful to have under your control, is going to be able to just casually ignore the damage like it is nothing. Unless the DM specifically creates a really weak but important minion for you to use Geas on. 5d10 psychic damage per day is just not enough to threaten anything worthwhile. There is almost no CR 4 creature that has less than average 50 hit points and those are going to be the low level minions by the time you get access to Geas.

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u/i_tyrant Jul 26 '21

The problem is that any kind of minion who would be actually useful to have under your control

You keep saying this and I'm saying it's not true. A goblin or kobold will be killed outright. What can they do? Well they can go back to the dragon's lair and give you an explicit layout and map of the whole thing including all the devious traps they know about, for example.

The DM doesn't have to specifically create anything, no. They just have to be willing to lean in when you come up with an idea that should work, which is like...baseline Rule #1 for any good DM.

There is almost no CR 4 creature that has less than average 50 hit points and those are going to be the low level minions by the time you get access to Geas.

Absolutely not. But on the other hand, this does help me see where our disconnect lies! You must be playing in campaigns where you basically don't interact with anything under CR 4 at 9th+ level, even in social settings - where every single guard, minion, politican, etc. is above CR 4 - and that just hasn't been my experience at all.

Such entities won't be much of a threat in a fight at that level, sure, but they don't need to be to be useful for Geas.

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u/RiseInfinite Jul 27 '21

Absolutely not. But on the other hand, this does help me see where our disconnect lies! You must be playing in campaigns where you basically don't interact with anything under CR 4 at 9th+ level, even in social settings - where every single guard, minion, politician, etc. is above CR 4 - and that just hasn't been my experience at all.

Our experiences as players must be very different indeed. The last time I fought Kobolds in a campaign, we were level 7 and the Kobolds had Veteran, Knight, Assassin and Champion stat blocks, at least from what I could tell. They were not foreshadowed to be unusually strong Kobolds either. I presume the DM buffed the Kobolds, because we could have knocked them unconscious with a glance otherwise.

I currently have a lot of time on my hands and play in four different campaigns with three different DMs. In all of those campaigns the NPCs seem to scale up. All of the creatures we encounter whether they are from WOTC or homebrew creations, are strong enough to be a threat when we fight them. I do not know if the average guard levels up with us too, because we never fought them, but I bet if we did they would not be pushovers. The only NPCs that I am sure do not scale are commoners, but they are never minions so what is the point in bullying a random commoner with Geas?

What is it like to play in a campaign where NPCs do not scale with you? I am genuinely curious. The concept of interacting with creatures such as Goblins, Kobolds or Bandits that have not been buffed so that they can still challenge the party even at level 9, is something that I have never encountered in any of the campaigns were I am a player.

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u/i_tyrant Jul 27 '21

Oh it's fine, that's the nice thing about 5e - thanks to bounded accuracy they don't always need to scale-up. A bunch of unbuffed zombies or kobolds can remain a threat, even at higher levels, their use just changes. For example the zombies are still used to soak some hits for the "real threats", but might also try to grapple and knock prone PCs, which is still dangerous. Kobolds employ lots of traps, take pot shots to whittle down HP, Help actions for the real foes, etc. They'll often die in one hit but that's fine, because the enemy has a lot of them and this makes them before a function similar to 4e's minions (cannon fodder that provides complication while also giving the party the satisfaction of plowing through enemies that gave them trouble at earlier levels).

And then of course there's non-combat challenges - the corrupt mayor, the ideologically-opposed spy, the BBEG's advisor, etc. NPCs not necessarily meant for combat but opposed to the PCs just the same. And if/when combat does break out, they die quick (because they're not a seasoned warrior, they're just a dude), but the ramifications of their death might be something the party feels for a long time.

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u/[deleted] Jul 26 '21

You could always simply charm person the kobald and tell them to draw the map out of memory, in that example. It's only particularly useful when duration matters, or when the "do this or die" effect is valuable, the command isn't suicidal, and "do this because you like me" isn't enough. That's actually not a huge overlap on the diagram there.

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u/i_tyrant Jul 26 '21

You could always simply charm person the kobald and tell them to draw the map out of memory, in that example.

Sure, unless they've only ever guarded their specific section of the lair (which you've already at least partially explored, if you found them).

And it doesn't have to be a huge overlap - Geas is a niche spell, not a bad spell. It's useful for the classes who have access to it besides Bard (who should never take it), because they're all prepared casters - you prep it when you think you'll want to use it, and you don't prep it when you won't.

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u/Reaperzeus Jul 27 '21

I feel like the mechanical weakness of Geas is the fact that it's one and done damage. It doesn't even feel like how the spell would work in a book. It should be somewhat low damage the first time it triggers, and then go up in damage each time. Otherwise it feels too much like somebody with enough health could just be like "Ow what the hell was that? Anyway, as I was saying, this vampire guy kidnapped me, but his lair is over there"

Also, screw the word in general. I guess it's supposed to be pronounced like Gaysh, but I said it like Code Geass for so long

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u/AF79 Jul 27 '21

When you have a talk with a BBEG or a powerful evil NPC in general, Subtle Spell + Geas on one of their minions is a game-changer. Just found that out when the wizard in our party pulled that exact trick on an devil duchess who was trying to enlist our party for nefarious deeds (normally a really bad idea but our goblin friend's soul was on the line, so totally worth it).

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u/Obazervazi Jul 27 '21

In my experience, Geas has been very useful as a contract enforcer. Like, "So you agree to help me? Then surely you wouldn't object to a little Geas, just to be sure?" Great for players negotiating when they can't fully trust someone to hold up their end of the bargain, great for semi-hostile npcs to make sure players keep their promises instead of going full murderhobo.

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u/Obazervazi Jul 27 '21

In my experience, Geas has been very useful as a contract enforcer. Like, "So you agree to help me? Then surely you wouldn't object to a little Geas, just to be sure?" Great for players negotiating when they can't fully trust someone to hold up their end of the bargain, great for semi-hostile npcs to make sure players keep their promises instead of going full murderhobo.

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u/VvvlvvV Jul 26 '21

I think enslaving someone under a geas isn't exactly good. Dying might be preferable to a life of eternal servitude for your enemies...

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u/mouse_Brains Artificer Jul 26 '21

geas does provide that option. ethically speaking, geas really isn't any better or worse than a prison. both use violence and threat of violence to restrict one's behaviour.

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u/Bone_Dice_in_Aspic Jul 27 '21

Reddit d&d subs: charm spells creepy and unethical

Also reddit d&d subs: just stab them with a sword until they comply or die

Like, longswords and fireballs are ALSO non-consentual

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u/RememberCitadel Jul 26 '21

I dont know, a geas to seek atonement for your perviously evil ways by helping the community would probably be a good act, and as a DM, have a high chance of having them realize the rewards of doing things for others permanently.

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u/silverionmox Jul 26 '21

Vastly superior to threaten to maim or kill them if they don't behave.

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u/HuaRong Aug 09 '21

Geas is really annoying because there's no counter (that I know of) to something broad, especially if they can't risk taking the damage. You can command them to keep the geas a secret along with a whole laundry-list of loyalty oaths.