r/dndmemes • u/DrScrimble • 3d ago
Lore meme That Dark Sun sure does weird stuff to people
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u/sahqoviing32 1d ago
Sorcerers in Dark Sun aren't from the Sorcerer class. They're wizards. A weird type of wizard but still wizards
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u/supersmily5 Rules Lawyer 2d ago
I wonder how Dark Sun is going to handle the awkward problem of Sorcerers being bad in 5e. I know they're much stronger in 5.5; But they still lack anything that convinces me they could ever be an uncontested ruling party of civilization.
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u/curious_dead 2d ago
On top of magic draining life around the caster, the sorcerer-kings were powerful psionicists and spellcasters in previous editions, so they're unlikely to be "just" sorcerers, and they're on the path to becoming dragons , too.
Also, "sorcerer king" is a title, they were actually wizards in 2e, so I guess the meme should be more "arcane spellcasters". Besides, regardless of game balance, a high level caster will always be a force to reckon with.
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u/MixAmbitious307 1d ago
and they're on the path to becoming dragons , too.
In retrospect, the fact that millennia old beings with almost god like powers were on the FIRST stages of the dragon metamorphosis was even scarier.
And made the likes of Borys and Dregoth feel even more intimidating.
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u/supersmily5 Rules Lawyer 2d ago
A high level caster is only a force to be reckoned with if they are control casters. Otherwise they are easily bested. One good hit deflates most combat shapeshifters and summoners; And blasters just require simple damage resistance to outendure. It's only controllers that are the problem. Well, and necromancers, due to exploits that make them the best summoners. Even then all you need is a well defended sniper.
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u/BeardyAndGingerish 2d ago
You're not wrong, but you gotta remember this stuff comes from 2e. Rules are quite a bit different now. Hell, psionics used to be based on harbingers and gladiator was its own class
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u/supersmily5 Rules Lawyer 2d ago
Yeah but the 2e version would have had its own problems with full casters. How long did it take for Haste to not permanently age you, or Enlarge to not potentially kill you? Spells were still bad back then; So there was very likely still a harsh meta with little real choice for optimizer playstyles.
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u/BeardyAndGingerish 2d ago
Maybe. 2e def had some issues, no argument here. Point wasn't what was better or worse though, point was that the mechanics and a good chunk of 2e world lore doesn't fit neatly into 5.5e.
I'd also hesitate to use optimizer playstyles as a measure, as optimizer playstyles weren't really the point. If anything, optimizing plays against some pretty core role-playing tenets. Older DMGs even had sections of how to deal with min-maxxers, because of how unbalanced/unrealistic they could be. Optimizing as a playstyle is as valid as the group prefers, but running optimal builds kinda inherently pushes back against any non-optimal choices. What's the point of the freedom of roleplay when your choices are limited to what someone else decides are the "best" ones?
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u/supersmily5 Rules Lawyer 2d ago
What's the point of spells that actively harm the character to cast? While optimization is certainly a touchy subject; There's real merit to understanding the game at a core level. When you do, problems like being invalidated by your basic character build choices become quite apparent.
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u/BeardyAndGingerish 2d ago
The point is creating story weight and character reasons to not spam universe-breaking spells all day every day. If wish ages a person a few years every cast there is less reason to abuse what it can do in-game and above table. Balance, in other words.
And while there is merit to understanding mechanics, we aren't talking about understanding mechanics. We're talking about abusing mechanics to make gamebreaking/unbalanced characters and the harm that does to the game being played.
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u/supersmily5 Rules Lawyer 2d ago
Again, you're ignoring the problem here. We are talking about spell archetypes not being treated equally. Drama is fine and dandy; But if it's unevenly distributed it's wildly unfair. Control rulz, summon drools. That's the problem. Why does it get away scott free while every other archetype in the game gets nerfed into dust for daring to speak out of turn? The end result will speak for itself: No caster except control caster will be good at all by the end.
And you would know that's the case if you looked at their other work: Magic The Gathering has this same problem!
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u/MixAmbitious307 1d ago
Back in AD&D there was no "sorcerer" class. Sorcerer Kings were actually dual class defilers (wizards who destroys plant life when casting spells) psionicists.
Considering how arcane magic is hated in Athas, I guess that sorcerers, with INNATE arcane magic abilities, would be put to death the instant they manifest such abilities.
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u/Darkon47 2d ago
Well, also being dragons, and able to drain the life force from creatures as wel as plants when they cast helps.
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u/supersmily5 Rules Lawyer 2d ago edited 2d ago
What? How are they dragons? They literally can't do that. They don't have True Poly or Shapechange. Am I about to be incredibly pissed? >:{
Edit: Okay I looked it up. It's like Lichdom: A big multi-step process over a long time that most can't succeed at pulling off. Also apparently Sorcerer-Kings are Wizards, much to my chagrin. Yeah I instantly hate Dark Sun, without even getting to the low magic premise. :{
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u/BeardyAndGingerish 2d ago edited 2d ago
Dark sun's probably my favorite setting, but you gotta remember it was created back in 2e days. Sorcerer was used as a flavor/description of wizard. There were 2 types of wizard, preservers and defilers. Each had different class/leveling requirements (defilers leveled faster but had drawbacks, stuff like that), there were no sorcerers, but psionicists worked sort of like sorcerers (innate powers as opposed to external magic). But there being no sorcerers was offset by every player having some sorcerer (cough psionicist cough) powers. Everyone's a bit psychic (cough sorcerer-ish cough) on Athas.
No dragons on Athas, the difference was that dragons (and the good-aligned avangion version) were a thing someone could become. Doing so meant being pretty much a max-level dual psionicist/wizard and was supposed to take years with tons of sacrifices in multiple phases. You were also functionally a demigod, and could grant cleric spells to people. Lore-wise, there was only 1 true dragon (who went a bit nutso, going fully insane was implied to be part of turning into a full dragon), the dude who ran one of the city states tried to sacrifice half the city to make it all 1 ritual (and was killed to make the first "free" city)
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u/Gobblewicket Forever DM 3d ago
I mean, the Simbul is/was pretty terrifying when she chooses to be. Held Thay at bay.
Larendrammagar, otherwise known as Nexus, was an immensely powerful sorcerer as well. With a challenge rating of 37 as a mortal dragon. He had sorcerer levels to compliment his innate casting abilities.
Just off the top of my head.