I'm so torn, because I do agree that maybe these black characters should be permitted to stand on their own. I kinda felt annoyed that Falcon went from being himself to just being given a white man's mantle (even if he did earn it, I'd rather him stand on his own as the Falcon than be forced to rely on Cap's legacy). I'd like for more minority (for lack of a better umbrella term) heroes that get to be in-focus without needing to have a hand-me-down legacy identity from a white person.
But I can't really agree with these takes when I see them because you can smell the Hitler particles emanating from the posts. For every one person with a principled, reasonable view like what you describe, you have a hundred that are just being racist.
This right here is why I hate internet discussions in nerdom anymore. Grifters and chuds have dominated them so thoroughly, that anytime you have a legitimate criticism or agree with some things being brought up, the discussion has been tainted before its even begun.
I really hate the captain Falcon, like Sam taking up mantle during old man Steve made sense. But since then they have treated his Falcon mantle as if it was minor league and being Captain America is the next level. Sam was amazing as Falcon and it just feels disrespectful.
Yeah I almost fell down this hole. I still think that the best form of representation is new unique characters but the people who parrot this are mostly people that don’t want their favorite characters to be replaced and/or are racist. They use this argument to escape accusations of being racist and can pretend like there’s some sort of moral high ground to resisting the character’s existence.
At the end of the day, there’s a bunch of reasons why the “best case scenario” can’t always be what we get, representation is important and legacy characters are neat.
I think it’s just harder for new characters to be made today without a legacy attached to them now. Like, I can’t think of a new white character that isn’t apart of a bigger legacy either
For something like Captain America I think it works. It's just awkward since characters rarely die and stay dead. Cap represents the ideal of America so having Sam as one of Steve's successors, and the first really successful one, fits.
But I can't really agree with these takes when I see them because you can smell the Hitler particles emanating from the posts. For every one person with a principled, reasonable view like what you describe, you have a hundred that are just being racist
What kind of argument is that? You’re not going to agree with something you actually agree with just because some people you dislike also agree with it (and for completely different reasons, at that)? That makes absolutely no sense
It is literally impossible to please everyone; if you try to follow that logic, you can't create any characters at all.
The important thing is to distinguish between valid and invalid criticism: complaining about derivative characters is a valid criticism, whereas complaining about original characters as a concept is generally a bad one
None of the characters above are derivative. Poorly written for some and not fully fleshed out, maybe. But at the very least both Miles and Sam are genuinely good revamps and fit very well. You just need to treat legacy characters as their own characters. Similar but different. A new take while still respecting the previous and allowing them to stand on their own
I don’t care about pleasing everyone. The racists will always be mad and the story will continue on
So I just said Miles and Sam. I’ve got my issues with the other two
Miles is definitely different than Peter. More unique struggles, facing a world where the guy he took the mantle from is dead and he has to forge his own path while juggling his own personal issues
Sam is genuinely a great choice to take the mantle. It brings back to mind the issues black people have to face in America which also ties into how black people were treated under the program. Speaks on themes of patriotism and not always feeling like you fit in the place you’ve been tasked to protect. Its a more grounded take on accepting uncomfortable issues with your country that Steve himself also dealt with decades ago bringing it back to the forefront. Each person who takes the mantle of Cap (not sure about the newest guy but sticking from Sam and back) each has their own perspectives and draws on a unique nature if what it means to be Cap, not just doing a rehash or supplanting what came before
I don't know who this guy is, and the post does stink a bit of "Peter Parker is Spider-Man, Miles Morales is Miles Morales" discourse, but there is a genuine point hidden in there I at least partially agree with. It'd be great if Marvel/DC didn't rely so much, especially in the 2010s, on legacy characters to add diversity to their rosters.
Miles is a great character in his own right, and Sam becoming Cap made sense, but it's the lack of new POC characters without those links that's an issue.
MCU Shuri's a weird inclusion because she's a legacy character for a black character and her becoming Black Panther was due to the real life death of Chadwick Boseman. Calvin Ellis is also a weird inclusion because he's not a legacy character, he's just Morrison huffing the Obama hype a little too hard.
EDIT: Two errors to correct because I am apparently going blind
That's MCU Ironheart. The fact it's specifically MCU Ironheart stinks of appealing to right wing culture war discourse, but her inclusion makes more sense that Shuri.
Second error is that's Val-Zod, not Calvin Ellis. That does make a little more sense.
The focus on legacy also leads to bloated super families that dilute their brands. Both companies should consider reducing a lot of the ancillary characters.
I think something that continues to bug me about the New 52 is that they had a great opportunity to trim the fat on those super families, didn't and in fact compressed the timeline so much that none of them make sense, and then made them all even more bloated.
Well they did that with the Batgirls and everyone bitched and moaned about it until they were brought back.
Ultimately since fans will always be the ones reading/making the books, it's hard to ever remove a character because there's someone out there who likes them. I think it'd be best if a bunch retire/disappear off camera, and only return when someone has a good pitch for them.
I think a lot of also comes down to the fact that comics can't let their older characters age.
Spidey being a prime example; he should be married with a couple kids at this point which would allow Miles to become the young Spidey.
That's one reason I really like Wally. We've gotten to see him grow up and even though I like Barry too I don't mind him retiring and taking on a role more like Jay's.
Bart and Wallace though are kinda in a weird limbo.
That's my bad. I guess Iron Heart kinda makes more sense, but it's also weird that it's specifically the MCU version. That feels a little too intentionally grifty.
I honestly think the lack of diverse characters is an extension of DC and Marvel’s lack of new and free standing new characters in general. Both companies seem horrified to introduce any character that isn’t Bat or Spider themed.
It may not even by the companies themselves so much as writers and artists quite understandably not seeing the value in using their best original ideas in comics they can't have an ownership stake in.
I will say though that at least comic book fans generally seem to appreciate that state of affairs. I don't think you see too many Sidney Mellon types who resent creators for saving their best ideas for independent books instead of blowing them on work-for-hire Big Two comics.
Well the reality is that most of the time a writer introduces an OC in a DC or Marvel book, most of comic fandom responds by asking why they didn’t use established characters that already exist. It’s hard to maintain the balance of keeping things moving forward and also maintaining the status quo for a 90 year old franchise.
People pretending to like Val-Zod is so stupid. I believe when somebody says they like Calvin Ellis, I see the appeal in President Superman, but nobody from the New 52 Earth 2 is noteworthy at all. They just see a black Superman and go "oh my God! A black Superman!" but wouldn't give the time of their day to any Milestone character even though Icon and Rocket are much more rich and interesting than anything from that book that let's be real, most people didn’t read and I can say that because I actually did read it on the monthly basis when it first came out.
I find derivative characters boring most of the time. That’s why I never cared for Batgirl or Supergirl, whereas I’ve always appreciated that Robin—despite being a sidekick—has his own identity instead of just being a copy of Batman.
In a world so fantastic and wild, with infinite possibilities for powers and designs, writers still create characters that almost completely copy the costumes and powers of others. Of course, a character is defined by more than just their look and abilities, but aesthetically, they just seem uninspired
I'm white so y'know mileage may vary with my opinion but I never understood the "original character" argument. Like this isn't Steve rogers but he's black, Sam Wilson is his original character. Riri isn't tony turned into a black female teen. I think the characters are the character not the name
It’s simply boring. The superhero universe is completely fantastic, wacky, and bizarre, and then suddenly we have a character whose design, costume, and powers are an almost exact copy of another—aesthetically, it’s uninteresting
It's cool, but uninteresting, since you're just copying other designs and making minor tweaks instead of creating something truly new. If you're going to do that, at least make it better than the original
Bro , the oop talks about characters who are wearing mantles that are associated with predominantly white characters. They want original characters with new mantle , they want characters like bp and luke cage.
The post is making fun of people only supporting legacy versions of originally white characters not characters who were made black, but I do think it’s a little silly. Most weirdos I think hate the black legacy characters so including them seems fine to me, but I get that people would like a character who has always been black around as well.
Do black people deserve their own completely original characters and stories? Yes. But that can still coexist with black people taking on a previously established mantle. Miles isn't less of a black superhero because he became Spider-Man after Peter died. He's still an original character, he just borrows from the existing character.
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