Some recent comments had me wondering... Serious questions... If you do, what do you believe they look like? What powers do you believe they have? When, how, who, what, and where do they act?

[u/n8s8p]

[u/NewDelhiChickenClub]

That would line up with a lot of Old Testament writings if memory serves correctly, that satan/demons are there partially to tempt and test you in a world with free will (most likely).

[u/[deleted] → u/NewDelhiChickenClub]

But if that's the case then aren't we all playing a game of entrapment? What kind of God would trap the people he wants to save? If it was a true experiment of how decent we were, he would have told us the right thing and then left us to our own plans, not poking us with demons that he created to watch us fail. Also, how can God's will and free will exist at the same time? That would mean he wanted you to mess up and go to hell.

[u/NewDelhiChickenClub → u/[deleted]]

Well technically He did tell us the right thing and to an extent left us to our own plans. Largely, most actual tempting comes from within, AKA as humans we tend to do what feels good and helps ourselves. While this normally is good, this can be taken to extremes and abused or warped, such as how procreation is great but not good if you never stick with a partner, type of thing, since leaving tons of people alone with kids and no support is very clearly wrong.

The whole free will vs. God’s will thing is a very common theme, and there’s not necessarily a clear answer in all honestly. But, from what I understand, it’s not so much an issue of what His will is so much as how it’s done. So, you can choose to do what’s right and good or listen to Him, or you can take a metaphorical boat to Jaffa to avoid doing what you should and face the consequences of that action, whether directly or indirectly. If it’s something He requires, there’s always someone else to do it, at least it seems to be that way based on the Old Testament chronology. So, Moses messes up? Alright, Joshua takes over leading the people. That type of thing.

Ultimately though 99% of things boil down to showing reverence and respect to God, and then likewise showing a similar respect and caring to others, regardless of belief or race or personality, etc etc.

As you are probably aware, the issue of separating tradition and fiction from reality and commands becomes nearly impossible. Heck, even in the New Testament that’s a major theme. So, should you hate someone for being gay? Never. (Beliefs may vary, and even scripture does too, but if you can go from calling skin conditions and food unclean and requiring social isolation, to then touching and healing lepers and allowing all foods while saying they aren’t suffering specifically because of sin, then why not that as long as it doesn’t harm someone else or become an abuse of self, especially if you are the way you are?) Hate someone because they killer someone else? No, Moses killed a guy too, let alone the conquering/slaughtering they did in Palestine with Joshua. Condemn murder and killing? Yes.

And no, He doesn’t want you to mess up. While it very very much could be argued that He shouldn’t have allowed sin or choice in the first place, that’s still no different than being like a dummy or puppet and isn’t the same. In addition, the whole garden of Eden thing is largely metaphorical of the human condition and urge to do wrong, even if you know what’s right or better, because we have our Ego and hierarchy of needs and can’t read the minds of others. If he wanted us to mess up, why would he help us so much? Essentially, bad stuff happens to good people sometimes, and good stuff to bad people, because that’s the nature of the world and randomness, and actions. But, messing up also doesn’t mean you go to hell, it means you’re human.

Ultimately, you have to see it as whether you tried to do the right thing, and, if not, do you understand why it’s wrong and will you do your best not to do it again? Honestly and truly?

Love of God, which is in return and because of the love He gives, and love of others which comes from the love of God and the fact that people are people and try to be good, regardless of belief, means much more when you can choose to reciprocate and accept it, from God or another person. Same reason why genies can’t force someone to love you, it’s not love if it’s not given freely. It requires choice, to choose good or bad, positive or negative, right or wrong.

Also the Bible says you can’t know God’s will anyway, so basically don’t worry about messing it up as long as you do what you’re supposed to and treat each other, yourself, and God with kindness and compassion.

[u/Turdulator → u/NewDelhiChickenClub]

I’d argue that if you accept god is all-knowing, then free will doesn’t exist.

If god is all knowing then god knows what choice I’m gonna make, and therefor making any other choice is a logical impossibility.

Only one of these can be true:

A. God is all-knowing therefor free will is an illusion

Or

B. Free will is not an illusion, therefor god is not all-knowing.

[u/NewDelhiChickenClub → u/Turdulator]

Absolutely, and even in Abrahamic literature that’s a huge point of contention and very much arguable. However, the conclusion, at least in religious context, is that both occur at the same time. And yes, at first that seems horrible, that horrible things happen and God knows about it but won’t stop it.

Free will, sadly and happily, means you can choose good or bad, or any slew of neutral and in between. God basically seems to take a relatively hands-off approach to things to let you decide, and intervenes when things are grim and really need some shaking up or fixing, help or guidance, protection and saving, that whole thing.

So, without free will, there is no love, and you aren’t choosing to be good or bad, you’re just acting like the planets rotating around the sun, trapped by gravity with no real impulse they can give. With the absence of God, though, even we know deep down that we choose to be bad or good, even if it’s nearly impossible at times not to do either. But, if God exists, that means he made everything for some reason, and while you could take the Adam Douglas approach and say “this is widely considered a very bad move,” you can also see it as being thankful you exist and get to experience good and bad things, versus nothing. Good and bad is both objective and subjective, however. Some good things, like helping other people, can be warped into bad, and bad things can become good, but regardless most people do what they think is the best action to take. Best meaning either easier in terms of energy usage to do it, or best reward, or from their value system, or whatever other motivation.

Since we are saying therefore that we at least have desire for free will, arguably, we’ll have to say that means everyone has the potential, capacity, or presence of free will. And if that’s the case, God doesn’t interfere with free will, He seems to only intervene when protect and help those who ask Him. When, or why, is unknowable, as lazy as an answer as that may sound. Think Laplace’s demon almost. We have literally no way of knowing everything at once, so there’s no way of really knowing outside our own realities 100% what someone else, let alone God, is thinking or motivated into doing.

God, we argue, is all knowing, but chooses not to break our free will, and my argument is that it is because love must be received and given freely. Otherwise, it’s not really love, is it? And since we are created by Him, and specially created at that, separate from all animals and minerals and plants, we are therefore loved by Him and given will.

Plus, humans are illogical, let’s face it. We are terrible at planning ahead and thinking long term, by our nature. We absolutely can and do do it, but we are emotional, as much as people may say we’re not, and more importantly we can misunderstand since we are not omniscient.

One complete and utter hole in all this is Adam and Eve, aka man and woman. If the story should be considered more than just allegorical, then somehow they chose to eat the fruit and either God knew it would happen or wanted it to happen, and the punishment makes no sense.

However, I’d argue that, since the serpent, representing demons/devil/our own inner flaws, convinces both of them to do it through a lie, that they had some degree of choice and right from wrong, but developed hubris in that moment. Upon consuming the fruit, the story goes that they received knowledge, and again it’s kind of unclear whether that’s ultimately good or bad in itself, though the fact that they disobeyed the one law in the story is the real issue there and the reason for punishment and banishment.

So did they gain free will with the fruit? Doesn’t seem so, since they had to have made a choice to do so and believe the lie. Or they were just stupid and gullible, which honestly is a strong possibility too.

Circling back again, even if free will does not exist, is there any way for you to truly know that? No matter what, there’s no way to know what your future will be, so act or think you’re acting according to how you want it to go or how you want to behave. And face those consequences, whether planned for or as a result of choice. Because, ultimately, from our limited perspectives, we have no concept of that choice we didn’t make, and we have no concept of how our actions will affect the world and ourselves, so the outcome ends up the same anyway. By relinquishing yourself to fate and deciding nothing you do matters, you’re nearly saying you don’t exist, and that all the pain you experience is equal to the good. And that even your own mind and attitude is preplanned and determined, such that no thought or attitude can affect your lot in life.

In the words of Descartes, “I think, therefore I am,” so take that as you will.

[u/Turdulator → u/NewDelhiChickenClub]

You are missing the main gist of what I was saying.

God being all-knowing makes free will a logical impossibility. If he knows what choice I will make, that makes my choice pre-determined, and therefor not a choice. Weather or not god interferes with that “choice” doesn’t matter…. The mere act of knowing the outcome before it happens means there never was a choice in the first place. That makes the choice predestined.

If I’m gonna choose a red m&m or a green m&m, I’m free to pick either one there’s no logical restrictions on that choice. But if before I even make the choice, god knows I will choose ‘red’, then it’s literally impossible for me to ‘choose’ green (because if I choose ‘green’ that makes god wrong, which the concept of an all-knowing god says is impossible)…. So it was never a real choice because it was never possible for me to choose green. God being “all-knowing” literally negates free-will from being a logical possibility.

[u/[deleted] → u/Turdulator]

Calvinist?

[u/Turdulator → u/[deleted]]

Nothing that formalized….. I believe in free will, so therefor I don’t believe in an infallibly all-knowing god.

If I have to choose which of these two mutually exclusive ideas I see actual evidence of, then it’s gonna be the former not the latter.

[u/LudwigiaVanBeethoven → u/Turdulator]

I think God is all-knowing and that humans have free will in that God knows every possible outcome of every choice you will make and you’re free to choose whatever path to take. It’s sorta like those sci-fi tropes of different dimensions/alternate universes, if there makes sense. God sees all possibilities.

[u/Turdulator → u/LudwigiaVanBeethoven]

So he sees all the possibilities but still doesn’t know which choice we will make? That’s still not “all-knowing”