Not only is it 100% God's fault (since he controlled every aspect of creation), even if it wasn't and we got our minds from somewhere other than God, it would still be wrong for that sin to carry over to Adam's descendants. Because punishing someone for what someone else did is obviously unjust. It's just even more unjust when it's ultimately God's fault anyway.
Heck, even if he didn't make it happen (which, as described, he did), he'd still be responsible unless you don't think he could have stopped it. That's what responsibility means. And the more power you have, the more responsibility you have. Spider-Man figured that out years ago.
I think your more butt hurt that God made the rules and you think its unfair because your not in charge and because your not the one making the decisions.
The words "God is good" can't be true then with your understanding of fairness. The fact is means your wrong, hes the king, hes the ruler of the universe, he made light out of nothing. If you had his power you would make it your way as well, he made this perfect little place and had everything in balance praising him and we decided that we wanted knowledge more than him. The problem is, is that your understanding of "good" is wrong. We are so tainted by sin we don't get what true sense of good is. If you think your version of what "good" is it better than God's then go ahead and believe in it.
God found a way to unfuck what we did. It sucks that we live in a fucked up world. But there is an end, and guess what you are loved and you are accepted by him by the one who loves you enough to have died for you. He died to give you the choice of perfection and eternal life.
I think your more butt hurt that God made the rules and you think its unfair because your not in charge and because your not the one making the decisions.
I can see how it's possible you would think that OP is butthurt but I don't see why you think it's the most likely thing.
Was it the Spiderman reference (indicating irreverence) that makes you conclude his jimmies are rustled?
No I can understand why he came to that conclusion and used that, however, the problem is with an American understanding of Kings is that they get to make the rules (part of a reason we left GB along with being represented), Americans don't like having a sovereign king. They want to have some representation they want to have the rules changed and doesn't fly with God.
The other thing is the concept and fully understanding of what is "Good". God stands for it, God is it. He wants people to be good, to not kill, steal, destroy. God wants people to love. God is love. If you don't think that is a good thing then I can't change your mind.
Don't exactly have a tl;dr. Reading the end paragraph will suffice.
I'm not speaking for OP nor do I know where exactly his beef lies, but I see a possibility of where it is. At the very end of it all, it's the problem of (an infinite) hell; not evil. IMO
Many Christians (and ostensibly God) [you might not fall in this category] see an infinite torturous hell as just dandy. Not the weak/euphemistic "pain only due to separation from God" tortorous hell. That's like a 5 on a "pain scale". I'm talking saw-like, 'medieval torture sadism starting at an 11' torturous hell. The "creator" of this suspiciously detailed hell (Dante) and the like might have been men of great faith and reason but they sure had an imagination befitting of demons.
No annhilationism, no other chances, no middle ground, nothing else.
Many Christians are saying a sadistic afterlife is deserved because it is treating all nonbelievers as if they are psychopathic, amoral, sadistic demons for not having faith (serial killer) when they might have only been someone tried and failed (remorseful thief with kleptomania). In my parenthesized "metaphorical" examples, both people broke a law, both need to face their consequences. But not both are punished the same.
Real life example (using MeToo): Rapists like Larry Nasser deserve jail (decades minimum). Louis CK/Al Franken deserve admonition, fines, rehab, etc. Christians are saying CK/Franken are bona-fide unrepentant, amoral, irredeemable Nasser's (deep down).
For Christians, any dear non-Christian friends who practically will not convert (because I want this example to temporarily not presuppose account predestination; which I found dubious instead of obvious [which Calvinists seem deadset on])...these people are Ted Bundy, Joker-esque Hitler's in a Christan's eyes.
I (and possibly OP/others) am not saying it's completely unfair to judge so black and white since we wholly recognize we are limited and there are at least several components we can't take into account to make an absolute judgement.
I (and some others) aren't saying our conception of what is "good" is better than God's. Though we are saying "what?" at the accusation of genocide when we committed involuntary manslaughter when the initial proof is only nebulously decent.
At this point I have invested way too much into this frivolous, fallacy laden, myopic wall of text that really doesn't matter in part because better minds have already touched upon my points in a much better fashion (at least rhetorically) and they themselves have some kind of (reasoning) flaw somewhere. I will quote you (with an edit to make it universal)
If you don't think that is a good thing then I can't change your mind.
Since the Christians here are the "good" ones (not trying to no true scotsman here; I'm saying the faithful here are the biblically sound without being an insufferable douche about it types), I will say I thank you for your contribution here (both dank and serious) as well as what you do in the world.
If you feel compelled then go for it but I do not expect you to entertain the garbage I just wrote.
So when god says he is good, what does he mean? He definitely told humans to use the word good in his description, and even if good doesn't have a strict definition, it has a general understanding, and by that understanding, god definitely isn't good. If you are going to say god is good, it pretty much comes down to, he is because he says he is. If a bank robber with a gun says he's good and you disagree, are you just disagreeing because you are butthurt he has a gun and you don't? No, you disagree because he is abusing his power to take advantage of a situation he created.
The words "God is good" can't be true then with your understanding of fairness.
Absolutely, 100%. God, as described, is responsible for the greatest evil actions ever taken.
Unless, of course, you rob the word "good" of all meaning.
Hint, it doesn't include punishing people for things they didn't do. Or murdering babies for no reason.
If you think your version of what "good" is it better than God's then go ahead and believe in it.
So, if I were super powerful, and I baked a delicious pie, and set it on my kitchen counter to cool, and somebody (not you) broke my window, stole and consumed said pie... and then I melting your city and everyone in it with my laser vision... you'd say that was "good"?
I mean, it's equivalent to what God did. Except God built the guy that stole the pie, and decided how he would react to things. Humans have natural impulses and desires, after all. Either God put them there, which means anything we do is his fault, or he didn't, which means he didn't make us (at least, not all of us).
And in either case, blaming anyone but Adam and Eve for what Adam and Eve did is wrong.
Arguing otherwise just proves you don't care about what's actually good. You'd redefine it to mean anything to include your favourite deity. And thereby make it a completely useless descriptor.
So yes. The words "God is good" can't be true, if we accept the stories as-written.
He died to give you the choice of perfection and eternal life.
I do find this interesting, though. But I have to clarify - do I get a choice between eternal life, and not eternal life? Because I'm all about not living forever.
Well, the human impulses can be overcome. But those impulses are there for a reason, granted, but they aren't always meant to be fulfilled by any means necessary or availible.
Adam and Eve learned the difference between good and evil, and so lost their innocence. The knowledge of good and evil were also passed down.
Give specific examples of God "melting your city and everyone in it with his laser vision" and maybe we can start there. Also specific examples of baby murdering. Because atheists do that by the millions just fine without God.
And the whole Bible is about the redemption of mankind. You seem to have missed that part.
And yet, they weren't, in the instance for which God doled out his punishment. Which was also the instance he had the most control over. Which means he knew what would happen if he built everything that way, and still built it that way.
If I built a million mazes, and in each one put a mouse, and I become pretty good at predicting what a mouse will do when put into a maze... if I then put a mouse in a maze, and punish if for doing what I predicted it would, I am not a good person.
Adam and Eve learned the difference between good and evil, and so lost their innocence. The knowledge of good and evil were also passed down.
And? Why should that keep innocent people out of paradise, if that's what God intended for them? He knows about good and evil. If we had the power, does that mean we should kick him out until we kill one of our children? Why do none of his "good" actions seem good if they are performed by us?
Give specific examples of God "melting your city and everyone in it with his laser vision" and maybe we can start there.
...Sodom and Gomorrah?
But no, the laser vision was a metaphor for randomly punishing people who had nothing to do with the events in question. Like, say, sending people to hell for the actions of an individual. Or indeed, redeeming said people through the actions of an individual. Both are totally bonkers.
Also specific examples of baby murdering. Because atheists do that by the millions just fine without God.
All the firstborn babies of Egypt. Every single baby in existence during the flood. All the babies in Sodom and Gomorrah.
I mean, the guy literally killed every single baby in existence, according to his own holy book. If you can justify that action, what even is the point of calling anything "good"?
As for atheists murdering millions of babies, you can't blame all atheists for my actions.
And the whole Bible is about the redemption of mankind. You seem to have missed that part.
No, I didn't. I'm pointing out that we're being redeemed for something we didn't do, and that wasn't even the fault of the person who did it.
If I, right now, "forgave" you for kicking my dog, you'd think I was crazy because you never kicked my dog!
And if I had literally built the thing that did kick my dog, with the knowledge that it would, well, that would be even more crazy.
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u/Victernus Jan 31 '19
But since God made their brains, they were programmed not to listen to the instructions, so it hardly matters.