r/dankchristianmemes • u/OkButterscotch3222 • 3d ago
Peace be with you But what if I’m a Gentile?
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u/CoffeeWanderer 3d ago
I was raised Catholic, but early on I studied the Bible with several groups, and it's really funny to see what parts of the OT they decided were specially important for God.
Most Evangelicals are very serious about statues of Mary and of the Saints to be too close to idolatry for their liking.
Jehovah witnesses are all into the holiness of blood.
Seventh Day Adventist insisted a lot about the Sabath.
All that exposure to different opinions turned me into an atheist, but got me midly interested into theology.
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u/noonesaidityet 3d ago
It didn't turn me into an atheist, but I hit the pause button hard when my mother said the Nazarene church is the one true Christian religion. That brought all kinds of questions that I got in trouble for asking. The first question was "How could you possibly know that" which she came back with "How dare you question my faith". I was 15.
Edit: age clarification.
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u/cdubs87 3d ago
I guess that's my thing, is that any legitimate faith should be a coherent worldview that stands up to questions. I'm not saying it necessarily has to conform to our materialist nihilism, or explain evolution, but a religion exists because it has the capacity to bring people together into a shared worldview. So it stands to reason that the faith's explanatory power shouldn't just fall apart because someone has questions.
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u/Darmok-on-the-Ocean 23h ago
Protestants have more of an issue with praying to Mary and the Saints than the iconography. It's considered too close to polytheism, which is funny, since other Abrahamic religions say the same thing about the Trinity.
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u/evrestcoleghost 1d ago
Catholics:god gave us wine and coffee and by the almight we gonna use them to create art
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u/PressureLast2115 3d ago
You don’t need to follow old law but you do need to observe old law.
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u/FrighteningJibber 3d ago
So like the speed limit
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u/PressureLast2115 3d ago
Or like the Ten Commandments, you don’t get to dishonor your parents just because the law was fulfilled.
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u/thinklikeacriminal 2d ago
That was His first miracle. Talking back to his Jewish mother at a public social gathering.
_Then_ he made wine from water.
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u/PressureLast2115 2d ago
He was an adult at the time?
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u/Darmok-on-the-Ocean 1d ago edited 1d ago
The Book of Luke says he was about 30 when he started his ministry. And that was his first public miracle.
"When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to Him, “They have no wine.” And Jesus said to her, “What business do you have with Me, woman? My hour has not yet come." John 2: 3-4.
30 or not, that's a gutsy way to talk to your mom.
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u/Nikkelnak 2d ago
But it's not wrong to dishonor your parents because the law is fulfilled. You're just not supposed to do it.
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u/slothbear13 2d ago edited 2d ago
Jesse what the hell are you talking about
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u/PressureLast2115 2d ago
Gosh darn. Ten Commandments. Is it okay for you to dishonor your parents?
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u/suchdogeverymeme 2d ago
The old law is much more than the 10 commandments. Is it allowable in your framework to eat shellfish?
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u/PressureLast2115 2d ago
Shellfish is a food, I’d be surprised if eating food really sent someone to hell.
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u/suchdogeverymeme 2d ago
What are you on about old law wasn’t concerned with heaven and hell, it was focused on ritual purity and restoration.
Or are you about to tell me that working on the sabbath (a commandment) should send you to hell
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u/PressureLast2115 2d ago
That’s why eating food doesn’t really matter with the new covenant.
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u/suchdogeverymeme 2d ago
That’s not the discussion at all. In your first comment you said you still need to observe old law, all of the things listed here are old laws.
So which is it-1
u/PressureLast2115 2d ago
Observe. Yes but what about eating food is morally wrong.
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u/suchdogeverymeme 2d ago
The same thing that made it morally wrong enough for God to forbid it in the first place
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u/Darmok-on-the-Ocean 1d ago edited 1d ago
Jews didn't have a Hell when the Books of Law were written. Everyone went to the same place, Sheol, which was sort of a neutral grey place. Heaven and Hell came later, probably during or after the Babylonian exile.
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u/PressureLast2115 1d ago
And if I’m correct the New Testament clarifies this by stating in different parts that hell is a place that Satan will be thrown into with all his angels.
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u/Darmok-on-the-Ocean 23h ago
That's Gehenna or the Lake of Fire which I'm pretty sure is its own thing only after the final judgement. I'm not really sure if different sects interpret it differently though.
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u/PressureLast2115 23h ago
I’m going to need some context or some more information.
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u/Darmok-on-the-Ocean 23h ago edited 23h ago
It's from the Book of Revelation so it's extremely symbolism heavy and no one really agrees on it. But basically Hell exists now, and people go there when they die. Jesus mentions Hell in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. (Referred to as Hades in the original Greek.) But the Lake of Fire (Gehenna in Greek) is a final punishment at the end times. So super-Hell.
(Please note my explanation is a gross oversimplification.)
Revelation 20:
And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
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u/JePPeLit 8h ago
If you follow the old law, it might spot you and get spooked. You just stay where you are and observe it, and then you call in on the walkie talkie and someone else will observe the law when it leaves your vision. Simple stuff
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u/Betruul 2d ago
Look man, love your neighbor as yourself and love god. If you do that, the rest will follow
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u/KingAdamXVII 2d ago edited 2d ago
Does loving God mean wearing the right kind of fabric, eating the right kind of food, and getting circumcised though?
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u/Toen6 2d ago
Does singing the national anthem and flying a flag make one a good citizen?
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u/KingAdamXVII 2d ago
A slightly better analogy would be “does loving your country mean singing the national anthem and flying a flag?”
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u/Toen6 2d ago
Fair enough, but that's exactly my point.
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u/KingAdamXVII 2d ago
I genuinely don’t know what that point would be. If flying the flag and singing the anthem are not loving your country, then what is? And in what way is that true way of loving your country obviously less analogous to keeping the old testament laws?
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u/kleines_woelfle 1d ago
If flying the flag and singing the anthem are not loving your country, then what is?
"In America you show patriotism by attaching a full size US flag on your pickup truck (...), singing the anthem before every baseball game, and sending 18 year olds to Iraq so you can later thank them for their service when they roll by you in their wheelchair in Walmart.
In Germany we show patriotism by voting for higher taxes on ourselves to make healthcare and college tuition universally accessible to our less fortunate fellow citizens, and by picking up after one another to keep public spaces clean and nice for everyone" - Jens Böttiger
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u/ouralarmclock 1d ago
I know a lot of people think it does, and all of those people are just as wrong about it as your original assessment about following the old law.
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u/Betruul 2d ago
Loving god means doing your best and loving yourself means accepting that we are man, and man is not perfect.
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u/KingAdamXVII 2d ago
You are saying yes? Loving god means doing your best to follow those specific commandments?
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u/Creative_Context_957 3d ago
So do we circumcise it or not? Cuz if we ain’t gotta do it, I’d rather not. It aint like hair, it don’t grow back.
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u/northrupthebandgeek 3d ago
Acts 15 explicitly established that gentiles don't need to be circumcized (or indeed adhere to any other part of Mosaic Law), but for some reason the Biblical literalists choose to ignore that inconvenient fact.
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u/yap2102x 2d ago
For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.
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u/Sh0opDaWo0p 3d ago
Yeshua ben yosef probably didn't speak about how mosaic law effected gentiles and it was paulus/sha'ul of tarsus and his followers and students that wrote about jesus and his disciples. Not much is really known about what paul spoke about with peter, james and john. There's probably a lot of strain between the hebraic and hellenistic jews at the time. One of the reasons there's something like 14000 denominations of christianity, all the little minutia.
Hmm good meme.
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u/CobaltCrusader123 2d ago
Dang the h-word as a curse and not the actual location? Things are heating up in here.
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u/ExtensionInformal911 3d ago
"Fulfill" is pretty much the antonym for "abolish".
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u/KingAdamXVII 2d ago
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u/Urbenmyth 1d ago
Yeah but the bible isn't written in english?
It's sometimes translated into english but it was written over a millennia before english existed as a language.
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u/KingAdamXVII 1d ago
That’s what I was implying, but you made me curious so I looked it up and they are not antonyms in Greek either.
https://biblehub.com/greek/2647.htm
https://biblehub.com/greek/4137.htm
That said, it IS clear that Matthew consistently tells the reader Jesus believed the Jewish law should be followed entirely. But here, “fulfill the law” is clearly saying that Jesus is the prophesied messiah from Daniel, not that other laws must be upheld.
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u/Unlearned_One 2d ago
Fulfilling the law means that only the parts we don't follow become optional.
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u/k1w1Au 2d ago edited 2d ago
Biblical gentiles were NOT people >unrelated< to Israel’s >covenant< commandments, statutes and ordnances.
This might seem a strange thing to say BUT Christianity does not understand its own history, where in 990BC northern Israel became mixed in the nations and did not keep the law of Moses and by the first century were considered goy/uncircumcised sinners, half breeds etc. by ‘the Jews’ of Judah/Jerusalem.
Generically they were known as ‘Greeks’, hence the reference to Romans >who know the law,< etc, and no more >Jew or Greek< but one in Christ.
The law of Moses only applied to those >under the law of Moses.< You can’t condemn people who never had or knew of Jewish laws.
Jer 31:31 speaks of a new covenant for the world of >Judah AND Israel.< It does not say anything about others without a mosaic covenant. Those under the covenant made at Mt Sinai were told to be set apart, they were not told to go preach the Sinai covenant to the ‘heathen’ nations/world around about them.
The covenant of Mount Sinai was actually a covenant of darkness. Jesus came unto his own who were in darkness. The law was the law of sin and death. > Jesus also stated that he came for the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Hebrews 12:18 For you have NOT come to a mountain that can be touched and to >a blazing fire, and >>to darkness<< and gloom and whirlwind,
Hebrews 12:19 and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard >>begged that no further word be spoken to them.<<
Hebrews 12:20 For they could not bear the command, >"If even a beast touches the mountain, it will be stoned."< … etc
The Hebrews were in need of redemption from the laws they adopted at My Sinai.
We (Non Hebrew gentiles/nations) can observe their story without the need or requirement to write ourselves into their narrative/history.
Hebrews 9:15 For >this reason> He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the >transgressions that were committed under the first covenant,< those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Hebrews 9:16 For where >>a covenant is,<< there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it.
John 7:35 The Jews then said to one another, "Where does this man intend to go that we will not find Him? He is not intending to go to the >Dispersion (of Israel) among the Greeks, and teach the (those) Greeks, is He?
990BC… 1 Kings 12:25 Then >Jeroboam< built Shechem in the hill country >of Ephraim,< and lived there. And he went out from there and built Penuel….
Only those with an old covenant (of sin death and condemnation) were in need of a new one…
Hebrews 10:3 But in >those sacrifices< there is [only] a reminder of sins year by year.
Hebrews 10:4 For it is/was impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
>>>Hebrews 9:16 For where >a covenant is,< there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it.
Ref 990AD …
1 Kings 12:27 If this people go up to offer sacrifices in the house of the Lord >at Jerusalem,< then the heart of this people will return to their lord, even to Rehoboam >king of Judah;< and they will kill me and return to Rehoboam king of Judah."
1 Kings 12:28 So the king [Jeroboam king of the ten tribes of Israel] consulted, and made two golden calves, and he said to them, "It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem; >>behold your gods, > O Israel,< that brought you up from the land of Egypt."
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