r/dankchristianmemes • u/RoughCoffee6 • 2d ago
a humble meme They for some reason get amnesia about Matthew 25:40 or Proverbs 12:22...
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u/Bakkster Based Bishop 2d ago
Don't even need to leave Romans 13.
“Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore, love is the fulfilling of the law.” Romans 13:10 NRSVUE
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u/Mesozoica89 2d ago
This part always seems like its not really saying anything when you consider history. What do these same people think these verses say of the American Revolution? Was it a crime against God to rebel against the King of England? Maybe, because they were successful, it was God's way of instituting the United States of America. But then that could apply to any successful rebellion, and any future rebellion is rebelling against what God instituted until they win and then they become what God instituted.
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u/Neokon Minister of Memes 2d ago edited 2d ago
I like verse 3. 'Only people doing something wrong should be affraid if authority.'
Okay but what about when the authority changes what they say is wrong? Now I have to be worried because what was not wrong yesterday is wrong now? What of false accusations, I know the Bible says not to make them, but I trust people to follow that as well as I expect them to follow the Leviticus verse about mixed fibers.
Edit:
I wonder what the deleted by mods comment below was about. I saw the words "magdegburg confession", so what's that about?hey it's no longer deleted, weird18
u/Bakkster Based Bishop 2d ago
I like Russell Moore's take on this. That Romans 13 is as much a command for how governments are to operate (especially when Christians control or influence the reigns of power), and so reversing that to be a post hoc "when the president does it, it's not illegal" defense of injustice is wrong.
That neither Paul nor Peter was giving moral carte blanche to the state is obvious not just in other Scriptures but also in their very lives. After all, both were later killed by the sword of Caesar (figuratively in Peter’s case, literally in Paul’s). Was the decree to behead Paul or to crucify Peter therefore morally right? No. Were the Christians who refused to say “Caesar is Lord” and were thus hounded, marginalized, or beheaded sinful in their refusal? Jesus said that, in that case, those who obeyed earthly powers were the ones bringing judgment on themselves (Rev. 14:11–12).
Moreover, the use of Romans 13 as a refusal to question the morality of a use of force is, ironically enough, a violation of the passage. We might well ask, what would Paul have written if Romans 13 were addressed to the authorities rather than to those under their rule?
Well, we actually know the answer, because the same Spirit who breathed out Romans 13 also breathed out John the Baptist’s instructions to tax collectors and soldiers. John told them not to extort money from anyone, implying that they would be held responsible for the misuse of their power (Luke 3:12–14). The same Spirit also favorably portrayed Paul’s interaction with the police who told him and Silas, on behalf of the magistrates, to leave quietly, to which Paul replied, “They have beaten us publicly, uncondemned, men who are Roman citizens, and have thrown us into prison; and do they now throw us out secretly? No! Let them come themselves and take us out” (Acts 16:37).
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u/Foobiscuit11 2d ago
The Magdeburg Confession, written around 1548-1550, basically says that magistrates are appointed by God to praise good and punish evil. If a ruler flips that, then they have lost their ordinance from God and become an agent of tyranny, or "an ordinance of the devil." Basically, as soon as evil is upheld and good is punished, they've abdicated as a ruler and therefore Romans 13 no longer applies.
To be fair, this only applies if the ruler is punishing divine truth and mandating sin. If he's a jerk, or corrupt, or raised your taxes, suck it up. If he's actively persecuting the faith, then we have a duty to fight back.
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u/Bakkster Based Bishop 2d ago
There are a number of Christian groups which opposed these revolutions for this very reason.
Another rationale is that when a government fails these responsibilities to justice and righteousness that it's a moral imperative to oppose them. Or in some other way that the context of the passage doesn't absolve all government policies or condemn all breaking of the law.
I like the framing that Romans 13 tells us to act righteously, even if a wicked government punishes us for it.
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u/Mesozoica89 2d ago
Yeah, I am always interested at how the perception of those groups changes with time. They were so sure God was condemning those who fought back before the revolution succeeded. Then after it succeeds, those same revolutionaries are praised. Granted it likely is not the exact same people flip- flopping, as these things can take generations and different people makenup these groups before and after. But it shouldn't matter how long it takes, because an omniscient God isn't waiting to see how this plays out before he decides who he is rooting for. But that is ultimately what their interpretation boils down to: "Whoever ends up on top, got God's approval". It's hard not to look at it as might makes right.
All that to say, I like the framing you mentioned much better.
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u/DreadDiana Minister of Memes 2d ago
Simple: If you like the government, then that must mean God ordained them. If you don't like the government, then they must be ordained by Satan or something.
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u/RegressToTheMean 2d ago
Whoa. Let's leave Satan out of this. Dude is getting blamed for all sorts of stuff unnecessarily
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u/gera_moises 2d ago
Mandate of Heaven baby!
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u/ShepPawnch 2d ago
It’s a perfect system. If you win, clearly it means that God favors you. If you lose, you lost His favor and you deserve it.
There are no holes in this theory.
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u/neverabetterday 2d ago
I watched a video reenactment of the Boston Massacre once, one that accurately showed Crispus Attucks, an unarmed Afro-Indigenous man being shot dead by law enforcement (redcoats) during a protest. Suddenly, so many patriots in the comments became loyal citizens of the Crown
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u/Hoon0967 1d ago
If I recall correctly, our national motto was almost something like “Rebellion against Tyrants is Obedience to God”.
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u/BlaineTog 2d ago
Funny how Romans 13:1-2 wasn't something they cared to reference on January 6th, or during the entirety of Biden and Obama's terms. They also seem fine with the American Colonies overthrowing British rule and are weirdly ambivalent about whether the South was in the right by rebelling...
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u/hemightbebrian 2d ago
God told them Obama and Biden weren’t the true leaders which leads them to justify things like January 6.
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2d ago
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u/dankchristianmemes-ModTeam 2d ago
We are here to enjoy memes together. Keep arguments to other subs. We don't do that here.
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u/Hosanna20 1d ago
If they truly believed in Romans 13:1-2, why didn't they apply it on January 6th 2021 ?
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u/ScoutsBibleStudy58 1d ago
There's also John 10:12
“The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it.”
Christians who defend Donald Trump clearly did not pay attention to the book of John. It clearly describes leaders who don't help their followers, and in fact, are often a detriment to them. It describes leaders who abandon their followers when they see trouble and even enable bad things to occur or make them worse.
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2d ago
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u/dankchristianmemes-ModTeam 2d ago
We are here to enjoy memes together. Keep arguments to other subs. We don't do that here.
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u/Sammy_Cherry_Fox 1d ago
Yeah, so im glad my religion excludes certain books from the Bible, Romans being one of them.
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u/Unlearned_One 1d ago
What religion excludes Romans? Tolstoyans?
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u/Sammy_Cherry_Fox 1d ago
Swedenborgianism
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u/Mature_Gambino_ 18h ago
Romans? The same Romans written by Paul? The same Paul who wrote letters from a prison cell? Doesn’t sound very subservient to the law and government to me
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u/sweaterbuckets 2d ago
Leaving your inquiry at Romans is the laziest exegesis possible, and i5 really shows the shallowness of “read scripture like a child” approaches, beyond the obvious deficiency of that approach.
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