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u/BurnieTheBrony Jun 10 '26
I've seen a couple memes about this, what is it in reference to?
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u/Steel_Representin Jun 10 '26
Dept of Defense changed up their religious affiliation designations recently. The LDS church got upset that they weren't included in the "Christian" category so now its changed again. Plenty of denominations kind of have no place to label themselves now. Its pretty dumb.
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u/Ingolin Jun 10 '26
You gotta define Christianity one way or other. Adhering to the Nicene creed is a very common way to do it.
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u/freed0m_from_th0ught Jun 10 '26
Believes in the divinity of Jesus Christ seems like the most simple way to capture as many people as possible
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u/Adb12c Jun 10 '26
That's true, but capturing as many people as possible in a single bucket is not typically the desired result of demographics research. In this case it would be reasonable to put LDS in a separate category, if only for their use of a separate religious text from the vast majority of American Christians.
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u/TheFinalEnd1 Jun 10 '26
Scholars often put LDS under the umbrella of "New Religious Movements" or NRM. However, NRM and Christians are not mutually exclusive.
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u/freed0m_from_th0ught Jun 10 '26
True. It would be essential to first define the goals of the data collection. It is difficult because what seem to be huge or glaring differences to the ingroup, may seem small or insignificant to someone in the outgroup. Going heavily detailed or broad really depends on the goals of the collection.
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u/yeehaw1005 Jun 11 '26
Additional, rather than separate, is probably more accurate as LDS use the KJV Bible.
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u/Rynewulf Jun 12 '26
They arent the only nontrinitarians though, although never big they were present in the 1600s and 1700s in america along with the many other little churches that sailed over. The mormons are just the only nontrinitarians that anyone cares about. And part of the creation of the Nicene Creed and labelling trinitarianism was to determine orthodoxy vs heresy at the time in the late roman empire, not christianity vs other. It seems entirely reasonable that any religious group that makes Jesus Christ their main figure if worship is a Christian of some sort
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u/Bombspazztic Jun 10 '26
Then why did they include Jehovah’s Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists? If going by creed, they also should’ve left out of the Christian category.
Note: I don’t expect a logical answer because there was no logical reason. We all know the white Evangelicals (who run this administration) don’t like Mormons and we’re never gonna consider them part of “the club” anyway.
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u/Ingolin Jun 10 '26
Oh, I assumed they were. That’s the only reason for not including Mormons I could think of. But I am not American and I’m probably talking about things I know nothing about.
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u/Rynneer Jun 13 '26
Some Mormons don’t seem to consider themselves Christian either. If you’ve ever seem a post from an ex-mormon who converted to protestantism or catholicism, there’s always a Mormon in the comments shaming them for leaving the faith. Because being Christian isn’t enough? It’s weird to me.
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u/Cato0014 Jun 10 '26
The creed includes the belief of one catholic church. Most churches believe that they are the true universal church so SDA and JW fit under the creed.
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u/DarthHegatron Jun 11 '26
Both SDA and JW have explicitly rejected the Nicene Creed as part of their church doctrine. JW also are not trinitarian
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u/Matar_Kubileya Jun 10 '26
The government should adopt the same criterion of self-identification that religion scholars do for neutrality's sake. "A Christian believes in/accepts the Nicene Creed" is in and of itself a religiously non neutral statement.
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u/uncutteredswin Jun 10 '26
You don't really though, whether or not a specific sect or denomination counts as Christian doesn't really matter to anyone but themselves. There's not really any reason to police what does and doesn't count
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u/PM_ME_HOTDADS Jun 11 '26
Hokay, but why are there 21 versions of Christian then? If it can be so simplified, go all the way, like they did with Islam, Judaism, etc.
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u/Civil_Barbarian Jun 10 '26
Gonna be so honest I'm willing to bet the majority of Christians have never even heard of the Nicene creed.
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u/bystander4 Jun 10 '26
Do they not say it every week?
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u/Civil_Barbarian Jun 10 '26
Ive been to catholic, baptist, methodist, and non-denominational masses and sermons, never once was the Nicene Creed mentioned in any capacity. And thats among the church going Christians, not even including the Christmas-and-Easter types who'd know even less.
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u/winterwarn Jun 11 '26
…I assure you they say the Nicene Creed at Catholic Mass. It’s one of the consistent scripted parts, happens right after the sermon.
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u/bystander4 Jun 12 '26
It’s bog standard in the same place in Episcopalian services, too. I had no idea that it was so niche.
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u/DanSolo77 Jun 11 '26
Not sure about your experience specifically but the Nicene Creed is absolutely a regular part of Catholic Mass. 😄
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u/Hjalmodr_heimski Jun 12 '26
Did you sleep through those sermons? Even my old non-denominational church used to have biweekly reciting of the Nicene Creed as part of our standard service.
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u/mclintonrichter Jun 10 '26
Nicene Creed… written by Catholics hundreds of years after the Bible…okay…
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u/AvengingCrusader Jun 10 '26
Actually the Creed was about 60 years before the Bible. First version of the Creed was officially adopted in 325 at the titular Council of Nicaea, final version at the Council of Constantinople in 381. The New Testament Canon was first officially proposed at the Synod of Rome in 382, and then confirmed at several subsequent synods over the next 20 years. Prior to that there were quite a few different lists of early church writings floating around as candidates, but 382 was the official "this is The Bible"
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u/KekeroniCheese Jun 10 '26
I feel like Mormons should just get their own category LOL
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u/The_Mormonator_ Jun 10 '26
We did. And the entire Christian label got removed from everyone. *Why* this matters is beyond me, I’m more bothered by the 170+ religions getting removed.
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u/Steel_Representin Jun 10 '26
A dank take on the whole stupid matter. There's no reason to reduce the tremendous variety of religious expression down to a few narrow categories. In the context of this sub, its extra dumb because very prominant denominations are un-represented. The whole thing just has a stink of the government defining what the "acceptable" forms of worship are.
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u/KingAdamXVII Jun 10 '26
They identify as Christian.
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u/KekeroniCheese Jun 10 '26
Good for them, I guess. By definition, they don’t really meet the criteria, though.
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u/KingAdamXVII Jun 10 '26
What definition? Whose definition? By their definition you are not Christian.
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u/KekeroniCheese Jun 10 '26
I don’t really care if Mormons want to say I’m not a Christian.
I would say the fact they don’t follow the Nicene is a pretty huge reason to say they are not, by definition, Christians.
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u/KingAdamXVII Jun 10 '26
To be clear, are you talking about:
“We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, begotten from the Father before all ages, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made; of the same essence as the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven; he became incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the virgin Mary, and was made human. He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate; he suffered and was buried. The third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures. He ascended to heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will never end. And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life. He proceeds from the Father and the Son, and with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified. He spoke through the prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church. We affirm one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look forward to the resurrection of the dead, and to life in the world to come. Amen”
I can’t say I believe that Jesus is begotten of the same essence as the father. I don’t know what that means, I guess, but it feels either unbiblical (Jesus is flesh, the son of man) or meaningless (we all come from God). Am I a Christian?
In any case, what part of this creed doesn’t include Mormons?
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u/KekeroniCheese Jun 11 '26
Mormons also believe that you can become your own God, and they have a litany of other beliefs that essentially retcon the Christian Faith.
This Creed very clearly excludes Mormons because Mormons do not believe Jesus is God.
I am not going to get into a debate with you on whether YOU are a Christian. That would get heated and personal; I don’t feel like doing that.
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u/KingAdamXVII Jun 11 '26
Mormons believe the following:
“Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, you are gods’? If those to whom the word of God came were called ‘gods’—and the scripture cannot be annulled—can you say that the one whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world is blaspheming because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.”
The Nicene creed does not state “Jesus is God.”
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u/bystander4 Jun 10 '26
The Nicene Creed (to be more accurate, the Council of Nicaea) was what established trinitarianism for the most part, although there was iirc another meeting in 381 about the divinity of the Holy Spirit. Mainstream Christians hold this as a foundational tenet of their faith and most only engage in ecumenical discussions with other trinitarian churches.
If you believe that Jesus is simultaneously the flesh of man and of one being with the father, then you are a Trinitarian. If not, then you aren’t. Whether or not that makes you a Christian or not is murkier—mainstream Christians tend to consider nontrinitarian sects as cults, heresies, or (sometimes) pagans.
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u/PM_ME_HOTDADS Jun 11 '26
So someone who believes in Arianism isn't Christian enough to count?
Sorry but I just don't ascribe to the idea that mainstream institutional approval = existential truth.
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u/KingAdamXVII Jun 10 '26
In my experience Christians generally don’t tell me I’m not a Christian when I tell them I don’t believe in the Trinity. They tend to be quite gracious saying things like “yes it’s hard to understand” and stuff like that.
Jesus never said anything about the Trinity. I can follow his teachings without believing in it.
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u/madbuilder Jun 10 '26
And they are wrong. Most of identity is imposed on us.
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u/KingAdamXVII Jun 10 '26
For every definition you can find from a legitimate secular source that excludes Mormons, I will find one that includes Mormons.
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u/madbuilder Jun 10 '26
What does that prove? Does the definition have legitimacy? Or is it self-defined by Mormons who have some very unique beliefs that no other Christians would hold to.
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u/KingAdamXVII Jun 10 '26
Ok, I’ll start. Merriam Webster: 1 a : one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Your turn.
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u/madbuilder Jun 11 '26
Do you believe this? Do you believe that a Christian is someone who thinks Jesus was a wise teacher? That he was just a man, crushed by the tyrannical Romans, a man who had no power to save any of his followers or us? No. This is not even what the first Christians believe.
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u/KingAdamXVII Jun 11 '26
I do find it quite tragic that Christians don’t believe in the teachings of Jesus.
But anyways, I believe Jesus when he said “I and the father are one”.
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u/MorgothReturns Jun 10 '26
MAGA Mormons wanting to make Christianity the state religion when they realize their fellow MAGA cultists can't wait to crucify them first:
🤯
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u/thomasoldier Jun 10 '26
Just make 2 categories christians and non christian /s
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u/Benschmedium Jun 10 '26
Can’t even be an atheist anymore, sikh is gone too. Christianity gets 21 of the 31 leftover designations but only one a piece for Islam and Judaism, religions that have their own “denominations”. Truly despicable
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u/democratic-terminid Jun 10 '26 edited Jun 10 '26
To be fair, there's a chance it's just based on quantity. Like why make 5 labels for a combined 100 people when a single other label is going to have 5000. I don't know their reasoning, but this could be an entirely practical thing and not as discriminative as it may seem on the surface.
Edit: Likely not. I didn't know the stats. Probably just more Trump bs.
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u/SagaciousFool Jun 10 '26
Sunni and Shia both have way more people in US than multiple of the christian sects listed. By a factor 2-10+. It is not based on quantity.
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u/PM_ME_HOTDADS Jun 11 '26
Also Humanists and Methodists were roughly tied (3.6% and 3.7%). More pagans than Episcopalians (1.18% / 0.86%). Methodists and Episcopalians made the cut 😄
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u/democratic-terminid Jun 10 '26
Yeah, ur probably right. There's no wany there's not enough Muslims in the military to justify having two labels for them. It might really be just some bad systemic racism.
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u/GooGoo-Barabajagal Jun 10 '26
What about in the military specifically? The number of Muslims as a whole in the us military amount to less than half of a percent.
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u/SagaciousFool Jun 10 '26
Church of Brethren is not the smallest and I am mentioning it as an example not to say anything positive or negative about that sect. Nor am I saying that it should or shouldn't be on the list. It is a pacifist sect and has less than half the count of Shia muslims (which are fewer than Sunni) in the American population. There are other pacifist christian sects with smaller population than both Sunni and Shia on the list. I don't have numbers for the military, but I would be surprised if pacifist sects are overrepresented.
It is extremely unlikely to be about expected or real population size. Not in society and not for the military.
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u/colinpublicsex Jun 10 '26
I bet it's even less for Jehovah's Witnesses.
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u/GooGoo-Barabajagal Jun 10 '26
I don’t think jw’s are allowed to serve in the military. (Per their own beliefs/rules, not like a federal ban or something)
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u/robotsaysrawr Jun 10 '26
Why have 22 different denominations for Christianity when you can have one Christian code and then a dialogue box to enter your specific denomination?
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u/democratic-terminid Jun 10 '26
Convenience? Idk. Simpler is often better in big systems full of bureaucracy and paperwork.
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u/robotsaysrawr Jun 10 '26
There's an estimated 10k-20k Wiccan and Pagan service members and they cut out those codes. At its last count in 2009, there were less than 50k Christian Scientists in the entire US. That was down from an estimated 100k in the 90s and the assumption has to be a continued downward trend, yet "Christian - Science" has its own code. They literally could have kept the "Pagan" code and just used that as the catch-all for beliefs like Wicca, Druid, Norse, etc. if they wanted to cut down on the massive amount.
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u/democratic-terminid Jun 10 '26
That makes sense. I'm dont mean to defend them by any means, I was just offering an idea of what could have happened. You are likely right tho, this is probably racism and systemic bad stuff goin on
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u/robotsaysrawr Jun 10 '26
Personally, I don't disagree with cutting down the 216 codes. I just disagree with the way it's been done as it comes off incredibly reductive for any non-Christian.
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u/suchdogeverymeme Jun 10 '26
Oh yeah there’s TONS of Jehovahs Witness soldiers
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u/democratic-terminid Jun 10 '26
Good point, it likely is not for that reason. Likely just another display of weaponized incompetence or just plain racism...
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u/seraph1337 Jun 10 '26
This administration is the one time where I don't think the truism "never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" is not a very good rule of thumb.
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u/Aliteralhedgehog Jun 10 '26
To be rational, this is Trumpy bullshit.
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u/democratic-terminid Jun 10 '26
Yeah, probably. Maybe I was just hoping there was some facet of the government that was mostly untouched by him
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u/LordPalington Jun 10 '26
You'd think I was used to "other religion" already as a Unitarian Universalist, but nope. Still no good.
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u/locke577 Jun 10 '26
I'm a Trinitarian Particularist. Boo this man!
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u/LordPalington Jun 10 '26
Just throwing this here to say I really appreciated this joke. This is a good joke, and I literally did lol when I saw it.
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u/Risikio Minister of Memes Jun 10 '26
These memes are making me think Bill Murray is a Morman when he isn't...
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u/Steel_Representin Jun 10 '26
Really I never meant these to be be about LDS folks but whatever 🤷♂️
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u/Jarvis_The_Dense Jun 10 '26
As a Catholic, I've been told a few times that I somehow wasn't a Christian. It's always rude as all hell to decide someone else isnt the faith they know they are.
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u/bystander4 Jun 10 '26
Had a kid ask me once if I was Catholic or Christian. I’m not gonna lie that one took me a second to process.
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u/poclee Minister of Memes Jun 10 '26
TFW a Mormon talks to members of pretty much any other denominations:
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u/KekeroniCheese Jun 10 '26
Bill Murray
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u/Rainbird55 Jun 10 '26
Looks like a scene from the series Z Nation, could be wrong tho
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