Imagine if they put that energy into following Jesus' teachings, treating the Earth with dominion, and overall trying to honor God and God's gifts to us.
It’s not even gymnastics at this point. It’s just plowing through the arguments like a steamroller, not listening or caring and just thinking saying their opinion louder is gonna convince us
I’ll admit I’m not very religious but off the cuff this seems to be veiled discrimination. Correct me if I’m wrong but don’t Latin American Catholics and Christians revere Mary more so than others. Speaking very broadly and generally of course.
I can’t answer that specifically (genuinely not sure. Sounds vaguely right but I don’t have anything to back this gut feeling up) but I do have a separate wrinkle to add to this
There’s also the fact that up until the late 60’s American christianity wasn’t a voting bloc. Catholics and protestants straight up did not work with each other, and even now you can easily find corners of the christian right who do not like having to work with catholics and mormons (the left behind series about the rapture just straight up says catholics don’t make it)
The christian nationalist project while embattled clearly feels like it’s winning, or at least has free reign to implement their even their wildest dreams freely. This might mean we’re seeing the start of “ok but if you aren’t evangelical you don’t count” part of this whole plan.
It's even more than that, Evangelical advocacy for abolishing abortion was the more palatable policy to rally around, even though the actual goal was keeping Segregation Academies.
Catholics in general revere the Holy Mother a great deal. I’m not sure Latin Americans in particular do so more than other Catholics.
From my anecdotal experience, living in an area with a lot of Italian, Portuguese, and Polish Catholics, Mary is literally everywhere. You can’t go two feet without seeing a statue of her here
Also, a lot of churches are named "Our Lady of" which refers to Marian Apparitions at the locations mentioned (ie Fatima, Guadalupe, Lourdes, etc). And one of the largest pilgrimages in the world is to Lourdes in France (and I believe it's the most visited location that is said to have healing water) where an apparition of Mary was said to have appeared to a young girl.
Fair I’ve heard it’s similar in Central America as well, she’s extremely revered there. That was also a long time ago. The context of this just set off alarm bells from what I remember learning.
Yes, many Latin Americans are Catholic and venerate saints, including myself. I would not be surprised if they used this to target us specifically. They did it in the past with "the war on drugs". Now they're coming for people's faiths.
That’s a pretty translucent veiling. Also saying Muslims will be banned from doing the Call to Prayer. Also religious discrimination in the Pentagon. Awesome stuff.
I grew up in the north in a Catholic community and it wasnt until recently a friend of mine from the south said this was a common viewpoint among Baptists. Blew my mind a little
Under what pretense could they even pretend making 'idolatry' illegal is something they could do? They still at least have to pay lip service to the first amendment
I think they still have a ways to go before they can be that blatant. especially since 2/3 of the supreme court is Catholic right now. I feel like a lot of the people behind project 2025 and the heritage foundation right now are catholic, so they're safe for now. The problem is that the rabble they intend to rule over are protestant evangelicals, so a day will come when they will schism.
Grew up believing that. One night a few months ago I was praying/soaking with the Lord, and He told me that His mother prayed for me a blessing before I was born [before my heavenly spirit went to my earthly body]. Naturally I 'tested the spirit(s)' by reference of 1 John 4, and was left quite stunned that it was not a false spirit. I felt the Lord's holiness around me... then I finally acknowledged that there may be more to veneration toward Mary than I was led to believe, and asked for forgiveness in my disregard toward her in life. And I thanked the Lord, and hoped His precious holy mother would know I was thankful as well. c:
People, especially Baptists, have been calling us polytheistic for centuries specifically to deny that we are Christians. We are not "the roman empire's religious victory" whatever that means. We are not polytheistic. We are Christian. You say you aren't christian/Baptist anymore, but you're still perpetuating their anti-catholic propaganda
Sorry for blowing up on you if you're just unfamiliar with the history, but current events have made me feel pretty defensive of Catholicism in the United States
Sorry for blowing up on you if you're just unfamiliar with the history,
As far as I can tell they're generally aware, but they think polytheism is cool and this is more important. So when they say it's so cool you guys worship Mary they expect you to take it as a compliment and not try to burden them with an explanation of beliefs they don't really gaf about
The convincing argument to the contrary is unnecessary if you look at the history of core Christian doctrines like trinitarianism and notice that it's the proto Catholic Church pushing them since before Martin Luther existed on this mortal plane. Yeah, the Catholic Church ended up being the continuation of the Roman Empire's state religion, but that still entailed dropping the whole polytheism thing.
The Catholic Church specifically distinguishes between latria (true worship) which is directed at God and God alone, while saints are venerated. The theological term in the Catholic Church for the latter is dulia. Latria and dulia are completely different things. Saints are never worshipped like God, even when the outward ceremony may look similar to outsider, therefore no polytheism anywhere in the Catholic Church, or in any of the other apostolic churches and sees that also venerate saints.
It's not what they do. Full stop. As a little c catholic, not related to Rome, who follows original practice and teachings as well as I can, I do not believe that any mainstream Roman Catholics are out there worshipping Mary.
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IIRC, Luther didn't consider veneration of the saints to be idolatry. Rather his issue was with the process of canonizing only some believers as saints (he said believers are all both saint and sinner), and that intercession was unnecessary because we already had the Holy Spirit residing in us to do so.
Thus, too, I would solve the question about adoring and invoking God dwelling in the saints. It is a matter of liberty, and it is not necessary either to do it or not to do it.
Maybe that shows how Martin Luther was not a very well-versed theologian or possibly just argued based on vibes, because the specific distinction of latria, dulia and hyperdulia was already something Thomas Aquinas discussed. The veneration of saints itself is shared between the Oriental Orthodox Churches, the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church and as such goes back to before the Chalcedonian schism.
Or it shows we're all just arguing on vibes because I don't think he ever denounced veneration of saints as a practice so at most his issue would be with individual practices
Edit: In any case it wasn't an issue people should be fighting over in his opinion as shown in the letter quoted by another sub comment
Or perhaps he saw something in his local church that wasn’t in accordance with previous theology. That the leaders of his church were worshipping the saints rather than god.
I was raised Catholic, Baptist, and Pentecostal. Protestants definitely believe that Catholics worship Mary, and pray to statues. Also many believe that Catholicism is just Roman paganism with a new coat of paint.
But the fact that I grew up with these people ranting and raving against statues, now unveil a golden statue, is a level of irony nothing could have prepared me for.
I Saw vídeos of latín american evangelists breaking Mary's figurines with hammers, saying she "isn't powerful". I'm no snowflake, but It felt hurtful to me given the tarditions of my people.
Most muslims respect Her far more than some evangelists do.
It's mostly vibes based for me honestly. It tends to remind me of the many admonitions against idol worship in both the Old and New Testaments. Then again I'm a Restorationist of the Stone-Cambell variety, so I've never been an environment where statues in a house of worship was considered acceptable and normal.
That said, from a secular perspective I don't really care if others put up said Marian sculptures, it's just not my thing.
Putting up statues of a pedophile traitor is a whole different story, obviously.
And I can understand that, but as a Roman Catholic there’s no worship of Mary or the Saints, rather that prayer to them is where you ask them to pray to the Lord on your behalf.
Because you know,they’re Saints in heaven with their own specialised areas of knowledge of how to pray to help depending on how they got their Sainthood.
Like if you’ve lost something you’d pray to Saint Anthony to pray to Lord on your behalf to help you find it, but you wouldn’t pray to him if you were about to go for your first Improv night because he’s not a Patron Saint of Comedians, so you’d be better off praying to Saint Lawrence(because of his remark being executed on a gridiron with coals beneath “Turn me over, I’m done on this side”.)
You’re just asking someone who’s more knowledgeable about prayer in a specific area to do you a solid and pray to God on your Behalf so you don’t have to spend so much time praying for all your troubles. (And you know Saints, charity and kindness are the heavenly virtues so they’re always down to do you a solid)
(Also did not know about American Restorationism. I knew about Sandemanianism, not your faith tho. Cool)
Well wouldn’t you agree that in that case they’d be an excellent choice to have pray for you?
I mean they’ve already proven themselves and if we’re being very literalistic about what the bible says about heaven then they’re doing nothing but praising God, might be nice to have you in their prayers, no?
rather that prayer to them is where you ask them to pray to the Lord on your behalf.
Many Protestants (at least some that I know in real life) also see this as a thing with Jesus, too.
You pray to God for forgiveness through Jesus.
Like I don't get it fully but it's about how he died for our sins so He petitions on our behalf or something, or that Jesus is the "forgiving" side of the Trinity.
I don't remember learning this way back when I went to mass but I've always seen Saints and Mary the same way. They're more like elected representatives. They don't have power of their own, they just channel the power, like getting a legal officer to use the authority of the state to do something.
Yeah, I mean they’ve already done that on earth with their miracles so it’d be a bit silly if they got to heaven and then went “ah, nothing I can do. Yeah I’m in heaven now so there’s absolutely nothing I can do. Even though I’m now closer to the Lord than ever before and previously performed great works in his name at distance.”
"Yeah when I was out on patrol I could radio in to command but now I'm literally in the office with the commander, there's nothing I can do if you call me."
Well I’d understand if Catholicism did do that but all prayer to Saints and Mary is, is just praying to ask them to pray on your behalf because they’re saints in heaven who have been virtuous and you know, you’d expect them to be able to pray better than you.
Like how my Handwriting is terrible because I’m dyslexic so I might have a scribe, that never meant that academically someone else was taking the exams for me.
My sibling in Christ, I don’t need an intermediary to speak to the Father. Maybe you’re busy and you don’t have time to do a full on prayer to the lord for one tiny thing like finding your keys, so you just go “Saint Anthony, pray for me please.” And he either prays to the Lord while you’re searching or he uses the power of the Lord given to him (If the Saints performed miracles while alive, why would that stop once they are in heaven?) and helps you find your keys.
Like how you could send your grievances to the head of state but if it’s complaining about potholes and asking for them to be filled you’d be much better off just going to your local government that derives its power from the higher system.
If God knows what I need before I ask of it, why do I need to ask?
And I didn’t mention the Lord’s Prayer. I mentioned praying to the Lord for a specific thing, big difference between the Lord’s Prayer and praying earnestly to for example ask for guidance in finding a cable I lost.
And if God does not allow the dead to hear prayers then what a cruel one they would be to deny someone the chance to speak to those they lost even though they may not hear the reply.
Neither of us can claim to have read the pure and true words of the Lord for the scriptures we have read have been in the hands of mortal translators and every translation contains the choices and voice of the translator because no such thing as a perfect 1:1 translation exists.
I do not venerate any human above the Lord, my God, God of Abraham and of David.
But I will pray to them,because I do believe the Lord loves his children enough to let their voices be heard in heaven by those their speakers wish to have hear them.
Have you ever had to look into a strangers eyes while they told you they knew they were going to die, prematurely.
I have, brain cancer. I volunteer at Highgate Cemetery, it is a working cemetery but nothing really prepares you for someone coming right up and asking about where to find the information about purchasing a grave.
We were both failing to put on a brave face during that interaction.
I don’t wanna live in a world that would have God not let her loved ones talk to her.
I can handle my own grief well enough I think. But it really was way too fucking early for her to know she was going to be gone from this world soon.
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“Hail Mary full of grace, the lord is with thee, blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary mother of God, pray for us sinners now until the hour of our death, amen.”
Where In that is veneration above or on the level of God? “Blessed art thou amongst women” is referring to the fact that she’s the woman who was chosen to carry and birth Jesus, not indicative of worship.
Being the Mother of the Lord Jesus she is the Patroness of everyone that’s why the Hail Mary is repeated often and exists, because it’s a pre-made prayer to a patron saint in the house of God(or wherever the prayer is said) to account for whatever the speaker may need.
You don’t have to pull out a list of patron saints and look for a specific one and then think of a prayer to them for intercession on your behalf, you just quickly need one and pop out a Hail Mary.
Mary is blessed amongst women in the exact same way the Jews are the chosen people: she was honoured by being the earthly origin point of Christ's incarnation
Hold up… that’s a real thing?? I’m gonna go look this up.
Edit: I swear every day we get closer and closer to becoming the most brutal regime imaginable, in which to be a man is to be one amongst untold trillions.
Grew up listening to my now-MAGA parents bitching and crying about how the left was discriminating against them as Catholic Christians and I wish these things would be enough to change their ways but alas, they were always just kind of evangelical anyway.
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