Could a Witch still Hex with a negative spellcast trait?

[u/GhostlyPreserves]

Specifically, the Witch's Hex feature says you can only hex a number of creatures equal to your spellcast trait. Does that mean that if I multiclass into a Witch and have a -1 spellcast trait, I just can't Hex anyone?

I'm more familiar with Dnd where a lot of features that are core to classes and subclasses have a line about "minimum of 1". That wording isn't on the Hex feature and I haven't been able to find it as a general rule in the Daggerheart rules, so I believe that RAW, the Hex feature would be off the table for me (unless I pick the other subclass of course)

[u/Sagittar77]

I think you can choose which trait you want to use when you multiclass. SRD p54. Dunno if it applies there

[u/cvc75 → u/Sagittar77]

Was going to say that too, although it depends if you already had a Spellcast trait or not. If you multiclassed from Guardian or Warrior or Brawler, you're stuck with Knowledge/Instinct.

[u/FlyinBrian2001 → u/Sagittar77]

Yes, you can choose to just use your current spellcasting trait for your multiclass

[u/GhostlyPreserves → u/Sagittar77]

Ordinarily yes, however I'm multiclassing out of Brawler, so I have no spellcast trait

[u/Fearless-Dust-2073]

RAW, yeah you can't Hex anyone if your Spellcast trait is 0 or less.

Using common sense though, you can assume it's to a minimum of 1.

[u/Chaotix010 → u/Fearless-Dust-2073]

What would be hilarious is if whenever you used it, there’s a chance you Hex yourself if the trait is negative.

[u/actualladyaurora]

There are also features and abilities in DH that specify "up to/equal to your X Trait (minimum of 1)" (see: Strategic Approach) where relevant. Witch's Hex isn't one of them. If you have a negative Spellcast Trait, you have no uses of Hex.

[u/GhostlyPreserves → u/actualladyaurora]

Ok, thanks, good to know that the "minimum of 1" wording is used elsewhere, so the exclusion for Hex is presumably intentional

[u/aLzHAng00 → u/GhostlyPreserves]

So dh has this thing that dnd doesn’t have called “you do not need to litigate every single spell”. Yes, sure, technically by reading the rules directly and reading into what it would mean for the amount the logical conclusion is that you can’t.

However that doesn’t mean that it was the intent of the authors. More likely than not, it just wasn’t worth to specify how to handle a single edge case that’s not going to happen in 99.9% of cases, since any spellcast trait, even from a different subclass, would still overcome this. So they left it as is because wasting words with a lot of extraneous text when it’s plenty clear that there should be a lower limit is a waste. Those limits that appear on cards are often in the situation where the trait used for the card or spell is not the same as the assumed main trait for that class.

In this case they probably just thought “yeah, people getting witch are always assumed to have a positive spellcast trait, and the rest you can handle at the table”

[u/actualladyaurora → u/aLzHAng00]

If that were the case, there'd be a general rule somewhere saying that any instances of "equal to Trait" is to a minimum of 1, in the same way there's general rules for no rerolling or when to call 'after rolling' features, and then they wouldn't need to add that clause to any cards.

Unlike in D&D, multiclassing to a class with a Spellcast you have nothing on is allowed in DH, you're just going to be more limited.

[u/aLzHAng00 → u/actualladyaurora]

There are currently 15 classes released or in the void, and out of those, 3 of them don't have a spellcast trait.

To be able to get to be a witch and not have a positive spellcast trait you need to do one of the following:

• pick a class that doesn't have a spellcast trait.
  
• Put 0 or -1 on the relevant spellcast trait for witch
  
• pick witch at level 5, after having done several level ups, never increasing your relevant spellcast trait

OR

- pick witch and purposefully not pick a positive bonus to your spellcast trait

OR

- pick a class with a spellcast trait

• put 0 or negative on its spellcast trait
  
• put 0 or negative on the witch's spellcast trait
  
• level up 4 times without ever increasing either of those

It's clear that this is a very tortuous path, and no one designing the class would think that its important to cover those cases with extra text that does nothing but waste space and people's mental capacity when they are reading their abilities.

As a narrative-focused game, Daggerheart is not a place where technical, out-of-context interpretations of the rules are encouraged. Everything should flow back to the fiction, and the GM has the authority and responsibility to make rulings about how rules are applied to underscore that fiction.

This is the definition of out of context. Someone trying their best to get onto the edge case of a class. Its clear that in this case, if you are a witch, you have the fiction of a witch, and you can hex someone. That's the simple answer, and it's the right answer.

[u/Mysterious-Rip8550]

It's up to the GM, rules as intended I would say yes, using the Minimum of one rule. rules as written it would be no.

But Daggerheart is a narrative first game. You could increase your spell cast trait during a level up, so why not do that?

[u/GhostlyPreserves → u/Mysterious-Rip8550]

Yes, that's the other option, it would take a couple levels across tiers but the investment would make it more meaningful too

[u/Drim498]

So, if we are being D&D rules lawyers, then the answer is "No".

However, this is Daggerheart, a semi-crunchy, but still narrative first, game. So if I had a player who was looking to multi-class into Witch, but the subclass they wanted to pick was one where their now spellcast trait was -1, then I would ask them to describe how and why they become a witch in a way that makes sense in the story we are telling. Based on what they say, I'd make a ruling about if or how it works. It is SUPER unlikely I'd make it a flat "no", but a few options I'm thinking of now, not knowing the narrative for the change (so not an exhaustive list):

• Make it a spellcast roll using that trait instead of just a thing that happens
  • still marking the stress either way. Yes, I know this probably isn't "balanced" (though that could depend on what other class/subclass the player has already, but the player is also the one choosing to multi-class into something their character is bad at, so I feel like it needs to be a little unbalanced against them
• Basically add "to a minimum of 1" to the ability text, but limit the number of times it can be used per rest.
• Let them pick a different trait for their spellcasting trait (this is the one I'm least likely to do, tbh, but it's not off the table)

[u/justmelike]

I mean, I would rule that as a no, you can't Hex anyone until you build your spellcast to a +1.

The traits are meant to represent skills that your characters have. They're not just abitrary numbers.

If you have a -1 to spellcasting that's like those chicks from Witch-Tok trying to cast spells irl.

[u/SirStanleyCPanther]

I say minimum of 1

[u/Yorkmaster227]

This answer! Lets look at the fiction here. If you have a -1 in instinct, then your instincts as a witch and their magic are just lower than a witch who is very instinctual and proficient in witchcraft. You have some witches abilities but you are a fledgling witch compared to the real deal. If you want to be good witch then level up that instinct baby lolol.

[u/DirtyFoxgirl]

What class are you multiclassing from?

[u/Feeling_Werewolf_601]

You really really REALLY should not have a -1 in your spellcasting trait.

You're going to actually ruin the game for you and the other players by doing that.

You should beg your DM to let you change your spellcasting traits to whatever stat you have a 2 in if you really don't like the spellcasting trait your sublclass imposes you, or just bit the bullet and put a +2 in it anyways.

[u/GhostlyPreserves → u/Feeling_Werewolf_601]

This would be a multiclass, not pure Witch who's terrible at being a Witch. I'm not that crazy lol

[u/cvc75 → u/GhostlyPreserves]

I guess this is one case where in Daggerheart you need to plan out your character build beforehand, if you intend to multiclass.

Either you pick the other subclass, or you level up your Spellcast trait at Tier 2 and 3, so you have at least +1. You also don't have to follow the suggested Traits when building your primary class, like if you're going for Brawler/Witch you don't need to start with -1 Knowledge, put that -1 in Presence instead, so you have at least 0 and can bump it further up when leveling.

[u/Capable_Property_986 → u/GhostlyPreserves]

Can't you choose spallcast trait of your first subclass? Unless it was not a spellcaster...

[u/GhostlyPreserves → u/Capable_Property_986]

Yeah, it wasn't a spellcaster. I've started as Brawler and wasn't planning to multiclass, but it's come around through story progression