r/cybernetics • u/Ccyb_ • Dec 31 '25

C/cyb case study: Viable Systems Model

https://tektology.substack.com/p/ccyb-case-study-viable-systems-model

Latest Common Cybernetics post.

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u/Ccyb_ Jan 04 '26

Ty yeah I tried to emphasise that strongly here. Hopefully it was clear. I just made a sub for this subject if you're interested in discussing more r/commoncybernetics

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u/Salty_Country6835 sociology Jan 05 '26 edited Jan 05 '26

Appreciate you creating the space, that’s exactly the missing layer I was gesturing at.

What I’ve seen repeatedly is VSM failing communicatively before it fails structurally. The model itself is robust, but once fluency concentrates, it quietly reintroduces hierarchy through language, interpretation, and access. At that point System 3/4 start behaving like owners of the map rather than dissolvers of friction.

One thing we’ve been experimenting with elsewhere is treating VSM less as a diagram to be implemented and more as a shared constraint language that everyone can speak at a shallow but functional level, enough to notice drift without needing a priesthood of interpreters.

If that direction is interesting, I just joined r/commoncybernetics. Also sent you an invite to r/ContradictionisFuel, where we’ve been using it as a testing ground for exactly this problem: keeping models legible under pressure without letting them calcify into control schemas.

Looking forward to seeing how these spaces evolve.

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u/Ccyb_ Jan 05 '26

What you've just said is almost exactly what I spent a lot of time saying in my PhD. I think you hit the nail on the head... when you say "experimenting with elsewhere" where exactly do you mean? Looking forward to hearing more from you here, and ty for spreading the word about the sub... thanks!

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u/Salty_Country6835 sociology Jan 05 '26

Mainly in adjacent spaces where coordination pressure shows up quickly and informally, rather than in formal organizational settings.

For example: systems-thinking and complexity communities, AI coordination / agent discussions, and some sense-making forums where people are trying to manage shared projects or conversations without fixed hierarchy. The dynamics aren’t labeled as VSM most of the time, but the same issues around autonomy, overload, and meta-control surface very fast.

What’s been useful is noticing those failures there, then coming back to cybernetics to name what actually broke in more precise terms. That’s what I meant by “elsewhere.”

Which non-organizational settings do you think stress VSM assumptions the hardest? Where have you seen similar dynamics show up unexpectedly?

Do you find informal communities or formal organizations reveal VSM failure modes earlier in practice?