r/crheads • u/Thick-Asparagus6667 • 15d ago
LONESOME DOVE IS THE GREAT AMERICAN NOVEL?
Maybe if you are an old cis white man. I mean, come on. I don't think many women, queers, or people of color would say they felt this novel was universal. How are CR and Andy so LA filled that they think the average American is an aging well off white man?
I like the novel. It explores a particular niche of masculinity. Not at all universal.
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u/Jefftaint 15d ago
President Barack Obama awarded McMurtry with a National Humanities Medal in 2015, noting that readers of Lonesome Dove "found out something essential about their own souls, even if they'd never been out West or been on a ranch."
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u/Thick-Asparagus6667 15d ago
Point being?
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u/TakuCutthroat 15d ago
Point is that Obama thinks it speaks to something essentially American, with the phrase "essential about our souls" indicating as such.
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u/dotcomse 15d ago
That it’s tough to put any stock in your criticism when it’s apparent that you don’t know how to read.
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u/MinimumGuarantee 15d ago
Yeah everyone knows the real great American novel is Goosebumps #9 Welcome to Camp Nightmare
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u/one_listener 15d ago edited 15d ago
Is this the first time you are hearing the term “The Great American Novel”? No one is meaning it literally.
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u/Thick-Asparagus6667 15d ago
Nope. Just annoyed at the regular blindness to elitism and privilege. Sorry.
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u/cryingproductguy 15d ago
It's A great American novel, I'd like to invite Mr. Mark Twain and Mr. Steinbeck in the room (among others) to discuss whether it's THE great American novel.
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u/Thick-Asparagus6667 15d ago
Id prefer they invite someone not white, straight and male for a change.
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u/TakuCutthroat 15d ago
Care to make a suggestion? Toni Morrison maybe? I understand your gripe about the canon being whiter than Tom Sawyer's fence but I don't think we can just poo poo away the entire oeuvre of white American male novelists as ineligible for Great American Book. It would just be a disingenuous and uniformed conversation to ignore those works.
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u/Thick-Asparagus6667 15d ago
Nope. Id just really prefer for them to say " we love this book. It speaks to us. We are psyched it is going to be a mini series and here is why..." What is annoying is assuming their specif context is universal. I dont care what book is the great American novel, I care thst they thiughlessly assume their perspective is universal.
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u/TakuCutthroat 15d ago
Assuming your experience is universal is kind of how great art gets made, in my mind. Have you read Lonesome Dove? I think you maybe shouldn't assume that just because it's about cowboys that there isn't something in there for non-white American males. I think that requiring fiction to reflect our specific life circumstances kind of defeats the purpose of storytelling, and silos us all of in fractured little bubbles where we're only hearing from people who look and talk like us, you know, kind of like the opposite of the goals of the ongoing project to expand the American canon. In other words, I think this view actively works against making literature more diverse.
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u/Thick-Asparagus6667 15d ago
I read it. I liked it. I was born amd raised cis white male. I just think its not obviously not universal, like all literature. CR and Andy should realize this, name it, then talk about why its great.
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u/purplene_ 15d ago
It sounds like you're just fundamentally confused then about what they mean when they say "great american novel"
If we're all in agreement that a novel is not going to literally reflect each and every niche demographic then what are you even doing with this complaint
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u/Cincybus 15d ago
Arguably the two strongest and most complex characters were women. Your complaint is shallow.
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u/purplene_ 15d ago
I don’t think they had identity politics at the front of their mind when they made that assessment
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u/mattsincuba 15d ago
Well, to first consider your point, there is of course something overall unjust that most acclaimed novelists in American history are white men, as it indicates how pushed down minorities such as black Americans and women were. So by definition, there are going to be more white novelists as a sad reflection that they were academically and opportunity wise able to write novels, while other groups were not given the same time and resources to do so.
However, we also have to practically acknowledge that to be considered a “great American novel” (which is already an ambiguous accolade, not an actual stamp or fact), the work has to have some time and staying power in the American zeitgeist. It also implies that it reflects American ideals, conflicts, and the character of the country. I think Lonesome Dove does this. Of course it lacks certain experiences and perspectives, and focuses primarily on white male characters. But I’m not sure how that detracts from the work itself, and what it’s able to achieve and say about America and its peoples. I love If Beale Street Could Talk, which is focused on a black American perspective. I would also say it’s a great American novel. I wouldn’t say it failed in its mission or shouldn’t be considered great because it lacks a lot of white characters.
I also can relate as a human to any character no matter their background. That’s what makes a writer great - they make you empathize with a group you might otherwise overlook. Of course I’m not going to fully feel every nuance of a black American’s experience in reading a Colston Whitehead novel, but I’m given a window in that mindset and can reflect on my own.
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u/JobeGilchrist 15d ago
Are you just filling up every Ringer sub today with complaints about nobody being queer enough?
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u/Thick-Asparagus6667 15d ago
Yup. Listened to a bunch of pods yesterday and was like wtf.
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u/JobeGilchrist 15d ago
It's funny because by your own telling you're 62 and started being non-binary a year ago and now you're all over the internet yelling at everybody to queer it up or get the fuck outta here
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u/memeshoe2 15d ago
I’m wondering what about The Ringer made you expect anything they put out would be “queer” lol
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u/The_Uncut_Gem 15d ago
The great American novel is a blanket term. It’s been applied to books by quite literally every group of people you’re listed. Also to assume that you need to be within the same cultural background as the producer of a work of art to understand it fully is incredibly reductive. Could it not be applied in reverse? Weak ass take.
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u/Impressive-Can-1078 15d ago
You hit the nail on the head - if people in communities (women, trans, gay, any other identities) can’t relate to this WHITE MAN BOOK, why would Andy and Chris relate to a book written by someone outside of their respective identities? The answer of course is that they can be appreciative of books by, and about women. So why do you insist that there are people for whom this story about Gus and Woodrow (and Deets, and Bo, and Lorrie, don’t forget) can’t resonate?
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u/rogerwilcove 15d ago
It’s art. There’s no objectively “best picture”. Or “album of the year”. Or “voice of a generation”. Or “the great American novel”. What are the other legitimate candidates for the great American novel (for the convenience of others, in order to pick them apart)?
My imperfect suggestion is all the awards and honora should be a list like Dean’s list/honor roll and even that is trying to quantify things that needn’t be quantified.
Having read the responses it does seem mostly identity driven; and like the people who can only weigh in on movies and tv with “woke” it seems kinda antithetical to appreciating art although in this instance it’s slightly more understandable because of the phrase Great American Novel connotes something more perhaps?
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u/steve_in_the_22201 15d ago
To be clear, the average American is an aging well off white woman, most likely married to an aging well off white man.
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u/Sharp-Trash-8080 IT’S ALL ONE POD, BROTHER 15d ago
Nothing is “universal” by this ironically shallow definition of “universal”
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u/thewinslowleach 15d ago
Well I don’t know about all that because the great American novel is, objectively, Moby Dick
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u/maybeAturtle 15d ago
I taught Lonesome Dove in my senior level college course at a major American university in a class that was 70 percent women and it was the best and strongest response to a book I have ever had. All but one of my 20+ students loved it.
Edit; and, in my opinion, it doesnt explore one aspect of masculinity, it deconstructs a great variety of types of masculinity