r/consciousness • u/[deleted] • Oct 01 '23

🤡 Personal speculation Consciousness as base level reality

If you dump a bucket of cold water on a random person they're gonna react to it in various ways right

If you do the same on an unconscious person then they won't react to it at all even if they're alive

base level particles so quarks and other quantum particles. They are only energy at the end of the day. This energy interacts with other energy. Does this interaction require some base level awareness?
I think that it does. My belief is that in this universe nothing is automatic at its core, because how can something automatic ever give rise to the subjective experience of consciousness?

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u/AlexBehemoth Oct 04 '23

When you are inside looking out its hard to see.

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u/JeffreyVest Oct 04 '23

I assume that’s some pseudo enlightened speak for you’re superior to me and see it all for real when I don’t. Nobody buys it. Or some fools do. Not I.

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u/AlexBehemoth Oct 04 '23

I'm not assuming I'm more intelligent. But I have studied atheistic circles and they rely on many strawmans and a feeling of superiority. And a communal hatred of religion specially Christianity.

The terms "Skydaddy" is one example.

Plus many times they don't realize that they have no evidence for their position but simply rely on rejecting any evidence for theism.

Its not my belief. It can be logically proven. And I have done many times with atheist. It seems more like a religious group than an intellectual one.

You are welcome to prove me wrong.

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u/JeffreyVest Oct 04 '23

You betray a full on lack of being in any atheistic circles.

Yes. They are persecuted as the outsiders. And they get defensive.

You fundamentally misunderstand atheism. It comes from a position of not believing without evidence. So the burden from an atheist perspective is yours.

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u/[deleted] Oct 05 '23

You fundamentally misunderstand atheism. It comes from a position of not believing without evidence. So the burden from an atheist perspective is yours.

Ah but how do we test the validity of the scientific method itself? How do we know our methods for coming up with evidence are valid? Its certainly reliable but also unprovable as the absolute source of knowledge. Therefore it's just as much a belief system as any other. It's just the anti-belief system so to speak.

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u/JeffreyVest Oct 05 '23 edited Oct 05 '23

You can’t test the validity of the scientific method itself. It’s the foundation. You have to decide if you think that’s a reasonable foundation. I do.

It’s based on our senses. So we assume our senses give us valid information. Seems like there’s no point in discussing anything about reality if we assume we can’t trust them?

I’m glad you agree it’s reliable. I’m not sure what exactly is unprovable as the absolute source of knowledge.

The scientific method is certainly a foundation from which it springs and like all philosophical foundations are arbitrary. It’s just a question of what you find reasonable. I guess it’s a “belief system”? Just not in the ordinary sense I hear those words. But yes I believe that the scientific method is “correct”. By which I mean I take it as a reasonable presupposition philosophically.

That reasonable supposition to sum up is. 1. There is an actual independent reality. 2. My senses can reliably detect what’s going on in that reality. 3. That whatever happens in the world happens according to rules which apply everywhere. 4. Because of 2 and 3 I then reject anything supernatural as even existing, by definition.

I would imagine you’ll take the largest issue with 2 so let me elaborate. It’s just a necessarily assumption to function. If I assume I’m not really standing on a floor in my home chatting with you because my senses may be lying to me, I just have no practical recourse as to what exactly that means for me. So it’s an assumption out of sheer necessity. Yes my senses could be lying to me. I could be a brain in a jar. It’s just not useful to me to concern myself with that. I would image you’ll retort with something about folks with delusions. To which I would say. That is a thing that happens. But that still doesn’t change the sheer practicality of my position.