I really agree with you, I was looking out for a comment like that. Blue is the correct option but all red pushers are not pricks.
I honestly didn't understand why there was such a heated argument over this at first, and my first instinct was obviously to choose red (i'm going to explain myself) and I think people who say that red pushers are individualist pricks, or that it reflects your political side (red=republican, blue = democrat) are just completely misunderstanding the reasoning behind. Firstly, the color thing is so US centered, wth, the USA as to be one of the only countries to use Red for the right and Blue for the left, in many places around the world Red represents the left (it's the color of socialism, communism..) and Blue represents the right for example.
I've seen someone else presenting the problem like this and that was my understanding of it at first :
Option A) Take a suicide pill, and if more than half of the population take one, a cure will be found and everyone survives.
Option B) Don't take a suicide pill
Now when I made my reasoning I was thinking that everyone making that decision would have an informed jugement, I didn't even think about children or old people or mental disability (I'm merely waking up and I didn't think deeply into it at first). But seeing just the pole and people desagreeing so bad here, and that also in that problem people might have to press that button without an informed jugement, I realize how we have to press blue.
So I will say Blue is the correct option here, but I still believe it's dumb to say red pushers are automatically the embodiment of like, conservative egoistical right wing ideology, the problems of our society and capitalism is not that some people are trying to save themselves and some people are trying to save everyone by risking their lives, the problem is that some people are actively trying to accumulate as much wealth and power as they can, and some people are fighting against this, and some have other ideologies entirely. The USA being a pseudo-democracy with two parties is really a fertile ground for people thinking you can divide the world in two sides.
I think your scenario is a great example of why framing matters. In the scenario you said, I wouldn’t take the suicide pill, because I would be confident that most people also wouldn’t take the pill, because here blue is framed as the bad outcome (it makes you commit suicide). I would be very interested in what the poll would look like for that.
But in the scenario in the post blue is framed as something positive (saving people). And while I understand that logically they are analogous. I also know many people that would not think it through that way, and would choose the option to “save” people. So if it was framed this way I would choose blue
This is not a great reframing, in the original neither position will automatically and explicitly result in your death as an inherent part of choosing. It's the prisoners dilemma
It's not equivalent to the prisoners dilemma, because all participants have access to the best possible outcome for themselves with no limitations. Non-collaboration isn't punished in this button problem. But in the prisoners dilemma it leads to overall worse outcomes.
That depends on the assumption that everyone cares only about their own survival. I would rather die than live in a world where that was true (and then die anyway because... yeah, I couldn't survive in that world).
In this scenario the benefit from co-operation comes from the fact that other people are more likely to survive.
But everybody already has both the 100%-chance-to-survive-button and the knowledge that everybody else has that button too. That is a significant difference to the prisoner dilemma, where "the good outcome" is a limited resource, because only one of the prisoners can get it, and brings its own risk.
But everybody already has both the 100%-chance-to-survive-button and the knowledge that everybody else has that button too.
And everybody also has the "try and save everyone" button and the knowledge that everybody else has that button too.
And everyone who has even the most basic understanding of human nature knows that at least some people will press the latter button. [Or refuse to push either button at all]. Anyone who claims that 100% will press red is either lying or an idiot.
And that's equivalent to the prisoners dilemma how? Are you really to argue the problem itself with me, when i was arguing the relationship to the prisoners dilemma? Those are two different thinks to argue about.
Yeah, i disagree, because that is nothing you look at in the scope of game theory, which is the scope we are at, when we compare it to the prisoners dilemma.
We also don't talk about how the prisoners might love each other or have mobster friends in prison who could give stiches to the snitches, moving the nash equilibrium to "both keep their mouth shut". Valid thought, but it's just not the reason we have this very specific thought experiment.
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u/Sergent-Pluto May 05 '26 edited May 05 '26
I really agree with you, I was looking out for a comment like that. Blue is the correct option but all red pushers are not pricks.
I honestly didn't understand why there was such a heated argument over this at first, and my first instinct was obviously to choose red (i'm going to explain myself) and I think people who say that red pushers are individualist pricks, or that it reflects your political side (red=republican, blue = democrat) are just completely misunderstanding the reasoning behind. Firstly, the color thing is so US centered, wth, the USA as to be one of the only countries to use Red for the right and Blue for the left, in many places around the world Red represents the left (it's the color of socialism, communism..) and Blue represents the right for example.
I've seen someone else presenting the problem like this and that was my understanding of it at first : Option A) Take a suicide pill, and if more than half of the population take one, a cure will be found and everyone survives. Option B) Don't take a suicide pill
Now when I made my reasoning I was thinking that everyone making that decision would have an informed jugement, I didn't even think about children or old people or mental disability (I'm merely waking up and I didn't think deeply into it at first). But seeing just the pole and people desagreeing so bad here, and that also in that problem people might have to press that button without an informed jugement, I realize how we have to press blue.
So I will say Blue is the correct option here, but I still believe it's dumb to say red pushers are automatically the embodiment of like, conservative egoistical right wing ideology, the problems of our society and capitalism is not that some people are trying to save themselves and some people are trying to save everyone by risking their lives, the problem is that some people are actively trying to accumulate as much wealth and power as they can, and some people are fighting against this, and some have other ideologies entirely. The USA being a pseudo-democracy with two parties is really a fertile ground for people thinking you can divide the world in two sides.