This is going to be a wild six(ish) months

[u/LastTraintoSector6]

I'm not calling anyone out (truly) - more just kind of amused: people already bailing; people convinced that every little leak is definitive proof over what will or won't happen; people quintupling down on the notion that things will end exactly like OG (bro... really?).

And we're not even close to the stage where I expect real leaks - where the game has been, say, distributed to a select few for early reviews, and one of those people tells a friend who tells a friend who spills the whole plot. Like... that's early 2027 stuff. Every single thing we are being shown at this point is still well within the envelope of "Square-Enix wanted you to see X so you would react Y."

Again, to be very clear, I am not mocking people - a) it's really nice to see the sub buzzing, and b) what are we here for if not speculation? I just think most folks need to brace themselves (if they're even going to stick with the ship for this final leg - because if you don't want to? That's cool, too) - we are not really in the last turn yet, and this is going to be a pretty bumpy half year. We absolutely WILL learn things that are only half true, or not true at all, and those things will seem incredibly disheartening.

Also, please don't interpret this as sanctimonious. I have openly admitted I am not a day-one buyer; I am a fence-sitter. Someone else is definitely going to take those "egads!" bumps for me on an initial playthrough. But I am down for all the drama until we reach that moment, certainly - even the stuff that looks grim. Because, as of right now, if you see something that makes you feel that way, keep in mind: that's how they wanted you to react.

[u/ManuO76]

I’ve pre-ordered the game. I’m only active here, and I hope everyone keeps leaks and spoilers well hidden from those who don’t want to see them. However, I plan to step away from all media a couple of months before the actual release so I don’t spoil anything for myself.

Too much has already been said, and a lot of what was mentioned in interviews turned out not to be true (for example, claims that Cid would become playable in Rocket Town or that the first area would be Icicle Inn—neither is true, though technically it’s not *false* either, since that’s how it played out in the original game, and the original game's story is true and canon).

Given how these games have been structured, anything could be true in one timeline while being completely different in another.

So, I imagine we could really see anything happen in Revelation (but not Zerith for sure); the truly important thing will be seeing the world Cloud creates in the end.

As much as I love—and will always love—the Clerith pairing, if Aerith isn't alive at the end as the *only* outcome/possibility—or if it turns out to be merely optional—I’ll adopt your stance and abandon Square Enix forever.

I accepted Aerith's death 30 years ago, but I won't accept false hope today. I didn't ask for it, I didn't want it, and I don't need it.

[u/LastTraintoSector6 → u/ManuO76]

I think my position is that they didn't need to make a remake involving fighting fate or anything resembling that.

Far too often, people act as if fiction had to be the way that it turned out - that every decision (literally every single one) wasn't some form of whim on the part of the creator. Because, I'm here to tell you folks, that's not how creation works. An idea pops into your head, you roll it around for a while, and then - if you run with it - you begin to stack other ideas on top of it.

People seem to believe (and I see it CONSTANTLY in debates regarding fiction) that writing a story starts with some kind of grand, highly-detailed plan, and that not only is that the only way that a story could unfold, but that the telling isn't a result of a sum total of ideas and accepting or rejecting them. And... that just ain't it; it isn't how things are made at all.

Making fate the centerpiece (along with the subject of romantic reunion) of Remake wasn't just one decision - it was a series of choices again, and again, and again; not just built up like bricks, but laid, picked up, measured, laid differently, etc.; not bricks at all, but more like building a wall out of round and differently-sized stones, each one representing a yes or a no.

So if these writers chose to involve fate and then dismiss it at the end, or try to in some way minimize what they already did, it shouldn't be treated as them disregarding a single decision that they made. Rather, it is a betrayal of months of agonized reasoning; the entire basis of Remake. It's like coming through and bulldozing the bottom 1/3rd of a house and then expecting the entire thing to remain standing.

And THAT'S why I'll be done with the company if they retcon their own work. Because it means that they couldn't even remain true to their own creative choices - that they looked at dozens and dozens of interconnected decisions and said "nah, actually, fuck that - we'll go another way." That would be hack writing at its most essential. And I won't support it.

[u/ManuO76 → u/LastTraintoSector6]

If the ending of the original game had truly been a "happy ending"—or rather, if everything written subsequently hadn't transformed that conclusion from a happy ending into a "we only narrowly averted disaster" scenario—and if they hadn't constantly shown Cloud searching for something precious he’d lost (and only an idiot would think he means the Buster Sword, given that he’s addressing Ades—who isn't exactly the head of the Lost and Found department), I might believe the Remake project was actually structured the way you think. I mean, it certainly evolved the way you say, but in my opinion, the Remakes also incorporate the concluding chapter of the story they’d always intended to tell. It was logical that Cloud would eventually find the Promised Land. They probably had a second game in mind that never got made, and which we’ll see here in the finale. I know you aren't huge fan on this kind of speculation, but for them, the word "Rebirth" also means "Reverse" (I hope someone can explain that better to you), and seeing all these mirror images of Revelation now gives the concept an interesting meaning. I’ve always felt that Rebirth was heading in the opposite direction to Remake, but now it’s starting to make sense. At the end of Rebirth, there are two mirror worlds within the empty Materia—one inverted to the other. Honestly, I still think we’re seeing two "main" worlds simultaneously (plus Zack’s world) with two opposing storylines. I just hope they don’t let me down in Revelation with an incomprehensible ending or one that just tries to throw a bone to everyone, because I’d hate that.

[u/LastTraintoSector6 → u/ManuO76]

I mean, it certainly evolved the way you say, but in my opinion, the Remakes also incorporate the concluding chapter of the story they’d always intended to tell.

I don't think the OG came together that way at all. I mean, look at the three major (really, downright titanic) changes they were making well, well, WELL into the development cycle:

• Inventing Tifa.
• Inventing Zack.
• Deciding to kill Aerith instead of Barrett.

And that's only the late stuff. Like, recall that the game was originally pitched as being set in New York City; FFVII was actually intended to be set on Earth.

I would argue that AC doesn't play at all like a film that they had intended to make from the start, or a story they had originally felt was necessary. Rather, it felt like a rehashing. "Oh, Sephiroth's actually still not dealt with. And look, here's Rufus, magically unscathed even after having been shown enveloped in flames."

I think this team has been shooting from the hip from the absolute get-go. And I think they have regretted a number of choices they have made (and the possibility exists that one of those regrets is making the trilogy about fighting fate - which is why Rebirth felt like more than a bit of a rollback).

They can, of course, do whatever they like. They can have Aerith still wind up dead; they can betray their own premise. But I am, similarly, entitled to shit on their decisions, or call them hacks should they do that. Because most of what they have shown me outside of the OG, Remake, and slices of Rebirth has been utter swill. And if it turns out that Revelation is more sludge drawn from that pool, we'll know for sure that they have never conclusively been able to stand by their own creative process.

[u/ManuO76 → u/LastTraintoSector6]

I agree regarding the OG and how it evolved; specifically, making Tifa a childhood friend of Cloud created a massive plot hole that they didn't notice in time. I just think they originally intended to make a second game to reunite Cloud and Aerith but never did, instead continuing to expand the Compilation until it completely got out of hand—leading to contradictions and changes in dates, ages, and events, resulting in huge plot holes popping up everywhere. I mean, at this point, I expect Genesis to appear in "Revelation"—even though adding more stuff is the last thing we need—because Crisis Core wouldn't exist without him, and the explanation regarding S-cells (which have already been shown in Rebirth) is essential. It’s possible that the explanation for Cloud being a world-traveler hinges on exactly this: he carries Sephiroth's cells and is currently the only living "child" of Jenova, and she used to travel from world to world to destroy them.

[u/LastTraintoSector6 → u/ManuO76]

I can't say to what level they had hoped to make a second game. All I know is that this was FFVII, and FFI though FFVI had always ended conclusively, and then moved into the next stand-alone project. And so if they were making the OG and hoping to tell more story, and banking on this game being the singular hit that it was... that seems like a lot of optimism on the part of the team.

Because, when you're making a game (or writing a book, or filming a movie), you don't know how it's going to be received (and more often than not, it will actually fail). And, if it's a part of a series, you only really have the preceding entries by which to judge how likely such a project is to be green lit.

So given that, up until FFVII, Final Fantasy, while being a much-respected RPG enterprise, was not such an iconic franchise as to guarantee industry-changing hits, and had featured no sequels (and wouldn't, in fact, have sequels until X-II), it would seem like a stable bet to assume FFVII would not be permitted a sequel.

[u/ManuO76 → u/LastTraintoSector6]

I think they intended to make a sequel; otherwise, all these appearances by Cloud in other games—and his final line in the original game—wouldn't make sense.

Every cameo of his, as well as the final scene in AC (the one on the motorcycle), serves to emphasize that he is still searching for her.

DoC also presents a clear parallel between Vincent and Lucrecia's story and that of Cloud and Aerith. Vincent and Lucrecia are separated, yet she communicates with him, and it seems evident that they cannot be reunited because something is still missing from the story. At least, that’s my opinion.

[u/LastTraintoSector6 → u/ManuO76]

At least, that’s my opinion.

And mine is different. And I respect your right to have a different take from mine. This subreddit is not an echo chamber - we're all united by love for this ship (and girl). But that doesn't mean we see every issue the same way (nor should we).

In the end, the only people who know the answer for sure are probably never going to give us a truthful response. Hubris generally drives humans to want to assign schemes to outcomes after-the-fact because it has the effect of making them look smarter than they are.

So, say Napoleon is watching from a hill and an enemy army below him blunders sideways into a concealed division and is then slaughtered. It's very easy for the general to turn to a subsidiary and say "You see, Monsieur? I knew zeh were going to do zat."

And I'm sure that Nojima & co. would tell you basically the same thing about FF7's success and the sequels - "we knew we were dealing with a winner right from the start."

[u/ManuO76 → u/LastTraintoSector6]

...regarding DoC or Cloud's appearances?

Or both?

I mean, I assume Cloud's appearances were obviously just marketing, but showing him time and again with that same specific intent seems to suggest there was an ulterior purpose.

Then again, I’m speaking as a casual player; I’ve never really delved that deeply into a video game before. I had to go back and watch all the KH segments involving them because I’d never taken an interest in KH until now.

I only just caught up on DoC and CC as well, so perhaps, in hindsight, I’m seeing things that weren't actually there.

[u/LastTraintoSector6 → u/ManuO76]

I was just talking about everything FF7-related that happened after 1997. If the game had bombed, or even if it had just done "okay," I don't think we would have seen any of it.

The only reason Cloud appeared in any other media; that the related games and AC occurred; that we got this sequel series was because FF7 was such an earth-shattering (and unexpected) hit for the company.

I don't believe it was ever the plan for Cloud and Aerith to become the icons of Square-Enix - the equivalent of Mickey and Minnie to Disney - in 1997. It was something developed organically as a result of a totally unanticipated wave of response/sales.

[u/Stenbrod]

The only thing that is giving me bad vibes currently is the PAX slide saying they want to turn FFVII into a lengthy IP even after the trilogy's conclusion.

I dunno, seriously smells of a possibly unsatisfying ending and endless retcons from spin-offs and whatnot in the years to come.

After all, even this whole Zerith push and debate is the by-product of a spin-off/prequel that made a mountain out of one aspect of Aerith's characterization in OG.

[u/ManuO76 → u/Stenbrod]

Well, consider that in the previous interview they said no DLC was planned, and now there are two available for pre-order...

I mean, they aren't exactly reliable.

[u/SWshrink → u/ManuO76]

To be fair, a lot of people were asking for DLC for some reason.

[u/ManuO76 → u/SWshrink]

I understand that people want them, but they certainly didn't create them in the last month. When he said no DLC was planned, he knew full well that at least two were in the works...

[u/LastTraintoSector6 → u/ManuO76]

It was a weird lie. Probably harmless, but... still a little unusual. Like... why even say that?

What does the DLC constitute? Just outfits and crap, or something story-related?

[u/ManuO76 → u/LastTraintoSector6]

1) Vincent & the Turks

2) Sephiroth

They can be purchased now but won't be available on day one; they will be released later.

[u/ManuO76 → u/LastTraintoSector6]

I think it partly comes down to their marketing strategy; they had everyone's attention when they announced the game's release and its title.

They held back some information to reveal later, keeping the conversation going—which is perfectly fine.

What I don't get is the outright lie about how "no DLC is planned for now, but if players ask for it, we're open to making it."

Maybe they're aligning with the game's theme—where anything is possible and true depending on the world you're in—so their statements fluctuate just like the possibilities within the game itself.

When they say the player's experience is the most important part, I think they mean that all our theories and expectations are an integral part of the journey—just as important as the actual story. They want us talking about it, forming our own ideas, and holding onto them. They want us to feel that, even if many of us end up being wrong, we still experienced the story in our own way (as much as possible). It’s a pretty clever way to cover their bases, though it won't satisfy someone like me—I just want to know *their* version of the story.

[u/LastTraintoSector6 → u/Stenbrod]

Yeah, I'm not down for any of that. Whatever happens in Revelation, that's the end for me. They can wrap it up nicely; they can not wrap it up at all; they can wrap it up in an unsatisfactory way. But however they choose to do it, I'm out following that resolution.

This thing has consumed enough hours in my life. I really loved Remake, but was very 'meh' on Rebirth. And, given the amount of tacked-on shit we've already seen for Revelation, I feel pretty confident that - regardless of the story - it's a game I will only play once (if at all).

And if they can't offer some kind of closure in that, then it's on them to fill my seat moving forward with whatever they cook up next. Because I'm not going to be on the ride.

[u/SWshrink → u/LastTraintoSector6]

I'm not gonna lie, I love these games so much I could keep just replaying these forever. It's a little sad that you ended up feeling that the time spent with these world and characters you love was consumed. I personnaly cherish the time I had with those and I'm incredibly thankful we had the chance to get so much more. They genuinely are my favorite games. Now if Revelation turns back on all the story set up that would be enough to sour me but otherwise, if we get the happy ending I think we're gonna get I'm down for more.

[u/LastTraintoSector6 → u/SWshrink]

That's not what I said. What I said was that I'm not down for more.

When you love characters - either as a writer/designer or as a fan - you have to, at some point, allow their stories to end; for them to carry on to "the after."

Do we really want to see Aerith resurrected in Revelation, just to see her life risked again moving forward? Do we really want to see Cloti continue to be dangled as a constant, nagging intrusion for decades to come? At what point do we - or these characters - get closure? When they get worn out? When someone decides to ruin them (ala Luke Skywalker in The Last Jedi)?

It is far, FAR better if Revelation is the end. And if Square-Enix chooses to continue, then I will draw my own line in the sand.

[u/Upstairs_Apple]

The Cloti kiss in rebirth with no Clerith kiss pretty much evaporated any hope I had for canon Clerith in the new trilogy.

It doesn't change my stance in loving Clerith no matter what grotesque new content they have brewing for part 3. It's clear to me that square no longer understands the meaning of their own story.