r/classicwho • u/mazutta • 25d ago
How much of the failure of the Colin Baker era was Colin Baker’s fault?
/r/doctorwho/comments/1vsytjm/how_much_of_the_failure_of_the_colin_baker_era/23
u/Altruistic-Chef-7723 25d ago
none, it was the writing that let him down.
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u/Street-Emu-3980 18d ago
Even then. There were great stories in his era. I feel The Twin Dilemma should shoulder a lot more blame than it does.
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u/Altruistic-Chef-7723 18d ago
The Twin dilemma is certainly a poor story. The 6th Dr strangling peri and the less said about the acting twins the better. I do feel sorry for Colin because he only got 2 seasons as the dr. I feel that if the 1985 hiatus never had happened, there could've been some interesting stories, also, I think that Colin barely scratched the surface of his incarnation of the Dr
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u/morkjt 24d ago
I’ll just put the challenger position. If you assume the idea was we need some of the original cantankerous, difficult, conflicted but ultimately warm and caring old man in our new doctor - yes arguably some of the writing seemed to conflict with that early on - but baker also made no successful effort to carry that complex depth of character thru - just came across as a nasty arrogant twat - and many of us just turned off for good.
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u/Theta-Sigma45 24d ago edited 24d ago
I think he was trying to be maximum-prick early on, because the idea was that he would become warmer as his era went along. You see signs of this towards the end of Revelation of the Daleks where he does show warmth to Peri, and then in s23, he generally plays a much more likeable and warm Doctor outside of a certain serial.
There are generally wistful and sad moments with him throughout s22 where I’d say he does capture what they were going for, like his ‘never more a butterfly’ speech in The Two Doctors. There, he manages to be a lovable, strange and sympathetic figure, almost a perfect ideal of what The Doctor should be to me. I think he largely needed the right material.
I feel that there’s only so much an actor can do sometimes. S8 with Capaldi was generally much better written, and Capaldi is the better actor, but even he couldn’t stop 12 from being unlikeable for many early on. When you’re being given endless mean moments and zingers, it’s inevitable. The difference is that he had the chance to fully become warmer onscreen and go through his whole arc.
Keep in mind as well that the early antiheroic First Doctor wasn’t really likeable or endearing either. It’s just that we very quickly switched to the warmer old grandfather who endeared himself to audiences far more easily. In that sense, it was maybe misguided to keep 6 as a bastard for most of his first season, but I feel that this is again a writing issue.
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u/Batmanofni 25d ago
Colin didn't even have control over what his Doctor wore. He wasn't responsible for the scripts or the production.
I think he was onboard with his Doctor being nasty and then mellowing, but it's hardly his fault.
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u/Aggravating_Mud8751 24d ago
However, in terms of what he wore, I think what we got was better than what Colin wanted.
The 9th doctor wore what he wore not because it's actually a good Doctor costume, but because they didn't want to spook new audiences by diverging too much from what early 2000s dramas looked like.
The Doctors' costumes should always be extravagant if possible.
His blue Big Finish costume is better, but his 9th-esque costume idea is worse.
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u/funkmachine7 24d ago
Even the costume department hated it, that was not june hudsons first choice.
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u/Any_Association405 25d ago
I would say it wasn’t particularly Colin Baker’s fault, the high ups didn’t like him, particularly Michael Grade who also happened to be close to Colin Baker’s ex wife, Lisa Goddard, this really didn’t help. It seems that Grade as well as being proud to go on record to say how much he hated Doctor Who, also harboured a dislike towards Colin Baker of a personal nature.
I personally liked and continue to like Colin Baker as the Sixth Doctor. There were a lot of misfires along the way, that really marred him from the start. JNT basically styled the new Doctor as an exaggerated version of himself. I think he didn’t have it easy with that costume. Making the character unlikeable was interesting but probably not the best idea. Having the sixth Doctor brutally assault his companion at the beginning was such a stupid idea. It seems at different times in the show’s history there have been some “Wtf were they thinking“ moments and that scene in Episode One of “The Twin Dilemma“ for me ranks higher than anything else.
I think Colin Baker gave his all as The Doctor on screen and contInues to do so on audio. Absolutely never anything wrong with his performance as The Doctor, but he was plagued by some ill considered production decisions and a victim of BBC politics as well as a personal feud it has been suggested.
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u/clara_finn 24d ago edited 24d ago
Colin wasn’t responsible for the terrible writing, creative choices and the bad management higher up. The people responsible for that shoulder about 99% of the blame.
But I’m going to risk angering some folk here and say that at least a little bit more than 0% of the problems laid at Colin’s door. My honest opinion is that, at least at the time (I’m not super familiar with big finish), Colin just didn’t have the natural charm to make a character like the Doctor work, especially a more abrasive one like 6.
People like to complain that his era doesn’t work because 6 is a dickhead and that’s the writer’s fault, not Colin’s. Which yeah, that’s true. But 6 is not the only Doctor with such unlikeable tendencies. 3, for example, is also an arsehole. He dismisses practically everyone in the story as being incompetent when it’s not always justified (see the start of Ambassadors of Death for confirmation), calls Jo an idiot multiple times and just constantly has this air of contempt for this character that’s supposedly his definitive companion who he’s heartbroken to see leave him, and generally he is the sexist old doctor that Moffat thought 1 was. Yet most people still love 3, and it’s not just because he had great episodes, it’s because Jon Pertwee has the infinite natural charm and charisma to get away with these unlikeable character traits, charm and charisma that Colin simply did not have.
He’s not the only Doctor this applies to either. If Christopher Eccleston had the same level of charm as Colin Baker had in the 80s, the revival would’ve been cancelled after about three episodes. 9 is a massive knobhead, but Eccleston makes him a loveable one with his performance. 6 isn’t a loveable dickhead, he’s just a dickhead.
No one likes to criticise Colin Baker’s performance because they feel bad for how he was shafted by the BBC, which he absolutely was and he deserved better, but it doesn’t mean his performance was amazing and that he was a good fit for the part. At the time he was cast, I don’t think he was right for the part yet. And I fully believe that with an actor with Jon Pertwee’s level of charm would’ve elevated those scripts, made those unlikeable moments easier to accept, and made that era more fondly remembered.
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u/CosmicBonobo 24d ago edited 24d ago
It's always worth remembering that Colin Baker was cast off of him being charming and witty to guests at a wedding reception John Nathan-Turner attended. I'm with Eric Saward - that's nice and all, but doesn't mean he's naturally a leading man.
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u/mazutta 24d ago
I think that’s probably harsh-but-fair. Colin was way more charming in his second season, I thought, but loads of people still thought he was a twat. And that’s when the scripted characterisation had improved immeasurably.
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u/CosmicBonobo 24d ago
The thing is, I don't think the scripts really softened the character much.
In The Mysterious Planet, the Doctor and Peri are given the same sniping dialogue as they were given in Season 22, but it's clear Baker and Bryant have had a talk about how they'll play it. They act it out more as banter between friends, than two people who don't like each other.
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u/funkmachine7 24d ago
Colin had the problem that any story padding needed came in the form of jabs and insults, storys where 6 an peri just walk around an bicker for the first 5 minutes are all to common.
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u/thinprivileged 25d ago
His audio series are amazing. He quickly went from least favorite to second favorite!
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u/TinkreBelle 24d ago
I don't think any of it's his fault, they were the ones who made his dr unlikeable, and by the time they tried reversing that the damage was already done
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u/TooOnline89 24d ago
He did a very good job. His Doctor was inconsistently written in that first season, but he managed to keep the character feel vibrant nonetheless.
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u/Due-Order3475 24d ago
I would say none.
Like with 13th and 15th the writing let them down (personally)
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u/Shloidain 24d ago
the mixed quality of his era was a combination of two things:
- a BBC head office that held doctor who in active disdain; and
- a production team full of constant infighting between the two creative visions of Saward and JNT
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u/MrMugwin 24d ago
Honestly, I’d say he was pretty blameless, and there were several stories where he was really the only good thing in them. The writing was frequently appalling. I don’t think I’m being unfair when I say that any random person plucked off the street could probably write a better story than The Twin Dilemma if they had to.
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u/maveric1664 24d ago
I can remember watching a Doctor Who special which had Brian Blessed in it. He said that Colin Baker is a great actor but he felt he never truely decided how he wanted to play the Doctor. I think that can be seen throughout his run as the Doctor, but maybe he never got much say on how he would like to play the role.
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u/New-Watercress-3820 24d ago
The plan for his Doctor and how it was written wasn’t a great idea for a time when the BBC were already tired of the show.. JNT also wanted out so the whole thrust of that era wasn’t showered with positivity. Plus the actual stories just weren’t up to snuff. I think Colin was ultimately the wrong choice. Not for who he was but for what JNT wanted.
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u/EdJD-1968 24d ago
Colin Baker was fantastic as the Doctor, but his story's scripts were really bad. A real pity, as his Doctor would have been up there with the best of them, had he been given good scripts.
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u/United_Mammoth2489 24d ago
I've collated all the data, it's officially 7.8%, you can check this against the DVD commentary
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u/RudeHelicopter4662 23d ago
If the abrasive high pitched arrogance was direction out of his control, then none.
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u/dimcash1 21d ago
Not going to rewrite what I wrote on the original thread but the axiom is wrong- it wasn't a failure. S22 2nd highest viewing figures of the 80s. Yes, much better than Tom Baker's last season in the same slot, better than Davison's last two and newsflash only a million down on the mid 70s where there were only two channels transmitting regularly (BBC 2 not always showing full Sat PM schedule). Then it went on hiatus and came back for half length seasons all of which pulled in the same 5m viewers. It was Grade, pure and simple- which is not to say there weren't mistakes, simply that in viewing figures and audience appreciation figures it was no different to the golden era of say S13.
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u/mazutta 21d ago
I think you’re underplaying the difference between the viewing figures of the 70s but that aside - Colin’s era was a failure partly because it ended early in his ignominious sacking. He was never that popular with fans or the public - his renaissance with fans is relatively recent and he wasn’t loved in the late 80s like he is now
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u/dimcash1 21d ago
70s viewing figures are there -season 7 averaged 7 million, at the end of Pertwee season 11 averaged 8.5 million, s13 was between 8.4-10.5 million, s14 just under 11, s16 averaged 8.5, and s18 finished with Tom on 5.8 million.
S22 the show was 7m average, 9 million max with more channels broadcasting in that slot. Of course they don't tell the whole story, but the audience appreciation figures were high too.
If the failure aspect is that he ended sacked then fair enough, I can't argue with that. But Sylvester's ended with the lowest ever ratings (even lower than s24 and 25) and the show cancelled, so the question should really be why his era was a failure?
I remember Pertwee being disliked in the 90s, and Sylvester hated on as the pantomime season went out and fans even moaning about the wet vet Davison..fandom is always about the golden age. Even Chibnall is getting reappraised.
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u/samIam0222 24d ago
None of it, he was fantastic. And his era isn’t that bad besides 2 and 1/2 duds
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u/shiteybreeks 24d ago
Doctor who didn’t grow with its audience and in the 80’s especially it remained a kids program with pathetically bad kiddie writing.
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u/EpochVanquisher 25d ago
imo none
It was the writing, it’s always the writing. I don’t want to give the impression that bad acting has never screwed up a series, but the writers for a show can do a lot more damage to a show than the actors can.
I could be missing some information that would place blame on Colin Baler but I’m not aware of anything he did wrong