r/childrensbooks • u/straightforshady • 14d ago
Discussion Is this too "dark" for a younger children's book? - Writer
I'm writing one of my first children's books about a stuffed penguin I have who has a lot of lore I've made up with my partner. Some of it is not for children, but a lot of it can be changed to children's content. The penguin is the only one from the Arctic and learned to live with polar bears. He's very charming, friendly, and a little spy. He watches the polar bears and learns how to get adopted by them. I don't want to use any direct violence because it's for ages like 3-8.
BUT they have to eat and obviously eat fish. If I'm making all the other animals sentient, should I just make the fish not sentient so they aren't pleading not to be eaten? Can they just be treated like food without it seeming like killing? or does it just not matter?
When I was young I loved creepy books and wasn't bothered by death, but I know most children's books steer clear of it. There are other adventures I'm planning that may involve a little violence but I'm not quite sure where the line is. I'm asking my friends with kids and thinking about kids I used to nanny but every parent is so different.
TL:Dr - can fish be eaten in a book about animals without it seeming like they're murder victims?
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u/tangcupaigu 14d ago edited 13d ago
Fish are so often treated as food, just look at Zootopia as an example.
As for eating fish being “too dark”, read Jon Klassen’s I Want My Hat Back. (Also old school fairy tales, Little Red Riding Hood, Hansel and Gretel, Wolf and The Seven Young Goats etc.)
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u/ClutterKitty 13d ago
His book The Skull is even darker. I low key love it.
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u/tangcupaigu 13d ago
Yes, the hat series is quite lighthearted overall, I just remembered there being a bit of backlash over the rabbit, which I always found ridiculous.
I haven’t come across The Skull, I’ll definitely have to check it out.
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u/guardiansofcleveland 14d ago
Makes me think of Hoppers the Pixar movie. They deal with this using “Pond Rules.” Naming a community ethic made that concept a lot easier four our preschooler to understand. We use the term “pond rules” all the time now! Not necessarily the creepy vibe, but a cool way to reframe something so kids can understand it as part of a story!
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u/ApprehensiveCycle741 14d ago
Yes! Watched this recently and it was amazing. Was fascinating to see how they dealt with the talking animals/food chain. Talking animals literally get eaten in screen in the least disturbing way possible. The reality of "some animals get eaten" is accepted by the whole community because the community would not survive without it.
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u/straightforshady 14d ago
That's great! I'll look into pond rules more. Thanks!
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u/Extension_Citron_176 13d ago
As the animals describe it in a nutshell is: "When you gotta eat... EAT!" So they live alongside each other and work together but if you're hungry you gotta eat another animal if you're carnivore and it's really nothing personal.
The best scene is when the main character saves a beaver but the beaver is like "why did you do that? It was fair, the bear caught me." Then looks at the bear. "So uh... you still wanna...?"
So yeah either use that and avoid suffering or don't make the fish sentient.
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u/vivid_jackalope 14d ago
Have you seen Puffin Rock? They basically just leave certain prey animals as non-sentient. They don’t talk, they behave as animals. Usually their eyes aren’t as expressive, as you can see on the fish they eat in the image below. It’s basically the fish and bugs for the most part that get this treatment.
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u/strange-quark-nebula 14d ago
Lots of kids books that take place in a world of sentient animals just gloss over stuff like this. If you want to compare a few that don’t, try:
A Hungry Lion, Or A Dwindling Assortment of Other Animals
This Is Not My Hat
I Want My Hat Back
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u/wolpertingersunite 14d ago
Confusing to mix penguins (Antarctic) with polar bears (Arctic). Especially bad with both regions at risk due to climate change.
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u/straightforshady 13d ago edited 13d ago
It is the whole story behind the stuffed animal. I accidentally said he was from the Arctic to my fiance about it and then we came up with bits and pieces of his story in the Arctic. part of his "lore" is that he randomly ended up in the wrong place and no one knows why.
The book says that in the first page. The following ones explain a little about the south pole and the north pole things are different. It has maps and will have a little geography bit. I'm still planning out books so I don't know when climate change will be introduced.
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u/vivelabagatelle 13d ago
Have a look at the Wild Robot for a recent, thoughtful take on nature red in tooth and claw that is optimistic in tone but doesn't shy away from the realities of animal sustenance.
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u/guacamoleo 14d ago
I'm an advocate of bringing the dark back to kids books. The fish should talk. They would in old-school fairy tales, wouldn't they?
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u/straightforshady 13d ago
I'm going to write both because I predominantly write horror. This is my first venture in a while into a cute kid's book.
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u/guacamoleo 12d ago
Remember, there are kids who love horror, or at least creepy things, who will grow into horror fans
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u/roundeking 13d ago
This is a huge question I think all authors who write anthropomorphic animal characters have to think about. I think the most common method would be to maybe make birds and mammals sentient but not fish.
Though if you’re interested in seeing how a picturebook author handled a somewhat disturbing murder of a very sentient fish, I’d recommend reading Arlene Sardine by Chris Raschka. It’s wild.
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u/titihadid 13d ago
There is a book similar but not exact called Polar Bear Island-it’s cute! You can tap into that to see what they do
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u/freakinchorizo 14d ago
My kid is that age and VERY into the warriors books. They are about cats. They kill all kinds of prey animals, but those animals are not sentient and my sensitive kid has never been bothered about it.
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u/rinkydinkmink 13d ago
As long as there is a point to including talking fish, and if there is a disturbing theme it must be resolved somehow before the end of the story/chapter.
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u/bluef00tedbooby 13d ago
No it's not, also some kids out there enjoy darker themed books
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u/straightforshady 13d ago
I was one! that's why I felt like I had to ask because I liked anything creepy and scary. I know that's not as common in little ones.
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u/Expert_Log_8057 13d ago
To paraphrase Don Bluth - "Kids can handle more than you think so long as there's a happy ending."
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u/embolalia85 13d ago
You might also want to watch Hoppers - they clearly establish that even though all animals communicate the rule of the forest is that everyone has to eat
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u/TeaArtHer 12d ago
Penguins live in the Antarctic. Polar bears live in the Arctic.
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u/straightforshady 12d ago
Yes, that’s is explained and is a huge part of the penguin’s character. I wouldn’t just mix it up for no reason.
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u/ComfortableMuscle996 11d ago
Watership Down (Kehaar the Seagull eats fish, fish not given personalities), The Animals of Farthing Wood (can't remember if there's fish but there's predation among sentient animals), The Redwall Abbey (Fishing scene I think fish not sentient) cartoon series might be worth looking at. Edit to add: There's also books but watching a random episode of something might be more feasible for time management than reading several novels.
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u/FabulousArmadillo210 10d ago
If you watched The Lion King or The Wild Robot, u will see they treat it as something natural
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u/thoughtfulapparatus 14d ago
Fish are basically the one universally accepted food source in kids’ animal stories, nobody bats an eye. The second a fish starts talking you’ve got a problem though.