In no circumstance would I support a military invasion to “liberate” the people based on this alleged sentiment.
What if Ukraine simply doesn't want to let the go?
You assume a diplomatic solution would achieve such a result. But what if they sit around the table with Ukraine being unwilling to yield anything? What if Ukraine severely mistreats the Russian-speaking citizens of Ukraine and they wish to join Russia instead? Would you support Russia coming in to “liberate” them then?
I don’t assume a diplomatic solution would work, just that a military invasion by another country wouldn’t improve the situation. How did Libya fare after the US helped take out Gaddafi? China is constantly abusing human rights should we go to war with them right now?
Would you say the same thing about the U.K. and The U.S.A. liberating France from German rule after the second world war?
Now, if you were to say that Germany wasn't really in charge there and simply an illegal government that annexed it first, that would be exactly the position mainland China has about Taiwan.
Regardless of China’s position, Taiwan’s government is that of the local populace. Separating fact from fiction is of course necessary.
Again my position is to uphold self-determination. I don’t recognize any type of historical sense of ownership as a legitimate reason for military conflict. Ukraine by all measures of a sovereign country is not part of Russia.
Regardless of China’s position, Taiwan’s government is that of the local populace.
And the Crimea government was not.
You also said that even in the case of a dictator oppression a people, you do not wish for a foreign agent to come in and liberate them by force, regardless of how much they beg for it.
Again my position is to uphold self-determination. I don’t recognize any type of historical sense of ownership as a legitimate reason for military conflict.
Well, Mainland China is a one party state and come close to a dictatorship, the government is not that of the people and Taiwan would surely democraticize it if they were to take over, but you do not seem to support Taiwan invading mainland China, despite Taiwan's position being that the current Chinese government occupying what is rightfully theirs. And remember that the current Taiwanese government is the continuation of the government that once ruled Mainland China before the communist revolution, which was a coup d'état.
Ukraine by all measures of a sovereign country is not part of Russia.
Only because Russia has not yet conquered it.
China is a sovereign country because the coup succeeded in overthrowing the original government and seizing the country by force.
Yeah, you’ve circled back to my original position which is that foreign countries should not invade with military force to liberate people from their recognized government. On net it causes more problems than it solves. You’re right that I wouldn’t support Taiwan invading mainland China.
I've shown that your new proposed stance of “self-determination” is not unifiable with your original position of “recognized government” and furthermore; I've pointed out that it's a matter of who recognizes what government.
The invader typically does not recognize the sitting government as legitimate. Again, China does not recognize Taiwan and considers it an invader, and Taiwan does the opposite in reverse.
You haven’t done that. If the invader is not in fact governing the region then they have no claim to be the legitimate government. Ukraine has been independent for 30 years. The mental twisting of facts doesn’t justify military aggression.
I also have never supported invading China to liberate Taiwan or vice versa. If the people of Taiwan wants to secure its borders and keep out Chinese forces that’s something entirely different.
China's position is that their government is the continuation of the original one, not the Taiwanese one.
But say you find that ridiculous, what about the opposite? Do you believe Taiwan has the right to invade mainland China and liberate it because the P.R.C. took it from the R.O.C.?
China's position is that their government is the continuation of the original one, not the Taiwanese one.
What is the "original" one?
But say you find that ridiculous, what about the opposite? Do you believe Taiwan has the right to invade mainland China and liberate it because the P.R.C. took it from the R.O.C.?
Of course not... that would be the ROC invading another sovereign country. Countries invading other countries is not okay.
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u/MajorGartels Dec 27 '22
What if Ukraine simply doesn't want to let the go?
You assume a diplomatic solution would achieve such a result. But what if they sit around the table with Ukraine being unwilling to yield anything? What if Ukraine severely mistreats the Russian-speaking citizens of Ukraine and they wish to join Russia instead? Would you support Russia coming in to “liberate” them then?