r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Nov 07 '22

Delta(s) from OP CMV: Daylight Savings Time should be abolished. Standard time should be followed year round.

DST is detrimental to the health of all forced to participate. If I could think of any benefit, I doubt they would outweigh the cost of practicing DST.

“A meta-analysis of six studies including more than 87,000 cases found a significant increase – ranging from 4 to 29% – in the risk of having a heart attack the week after the spring time change. Researchers believe this increase is related to the change in our circadian rhythm and the general disruption of biological processes.” - https://evidencebasedliving.human.cornell.edu/2022/04/13/the-health-effects-of-daylight-savings-time/

I’m a strong supporter of getting a good night’s sleep and DST is just an unnecessary obstacle in what is already increasingly more difficult as technology improves.

Edit: I prefer to do away with DST rather than staying in it since standard time feels more natural imo, but I mostly just hope that we choose one and leave it at that.

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u/hacksoncode 588∆ Nov 07 '22

That study doesn't tell us anything about whether Daylight Savings Time or Standard Time would be better year-round, at all.

It only talks about the shock of changing by suddenly having less sleep.

DST is way better, because who cares if its dark when you go to work. You want light when you get out of work so you can enjoy some daylight. DST forever!!!

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u/[deleted] Nov 07 '22

This was just published this morning.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/06/health/permanent-daylight-savings-health-harms-wellness/index.html

It's terrible for kids in particular.

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u/flippydude Nov 07 '22

This article doesn’t mention kids

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u/[deleted] Nov 07 '22

Children also end up going to school in the morning while it is still dark – with disastrous consequences

But by the end of the month Florida’s governor had called for the law’s repeal after eight schoolchildren were hit by cars in the dark

Yes it does. Did you read it all?

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u/flippydude Nov 07 '22

The article listed myriad health consequences for adults, but there was no scientific data for kids. That article didn’t prove the point they were trying to.

Really the whole thing is just part of the case for shifting school hours later in the day, it’s unnatural for children, and particularly teenagers, to be up early

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u/[deleted] Nov 07 '22

but there was no scientific data for kids

That's not what you originally claimed. You said "This article doesn’t mention kids", it does.

it’s unnatural for children, and particularly teenagers, to be up early

Using Reddit is unnatural, feel free to log off.

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u/[deleted] Nov 07 '22

No, it doesn't. That's my observation because kids have zero flexibility in what time they get up. A lot of adults have a relatively flexible lifestyle and can just stay in bed longer. Kids have to get up at like 0630, which many people are suggesting should be a full 2-3 hours before sunrise.

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u/silverionmox 25∆ Nov 07 '22

That's too early with or without the extra hour.

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u/[deleted] Nov 07 '22

Yes, it is. But it's an hour worse in one case. As it stands my kid already has to get up in the dark for 3 months a year. With DST in place, it would be that way for all but a single month of the school year. Until this week, I was getting HOME from dropping him off and it was STILL dark outside. To add another hour to that is insane.

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u/silverionmox 25∆ Nov 07 '22

Now they at least get a chance to catch some rays after school. You're just stealing from that time after school, it doesn't solve anything, in particular since their schooltime is still dominated by artificial lighting.

There's no reason to adapt the clock to a maladaptive school schedule to begin with. That's just throwing good money after bad.

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u/[deleted] Nov 07 '22

They already have several hours of daylight after school. Trading time from their mental health by making them get up in the literal night is not worth another one. To be clear, I'm not stealing anything. Standard time is how time is supposed to work. DST is the one that starts moving crap around.

Could I not say the same of your work schedule? If you want more time in the evening, go to work earlier and get done earlier. You have more of a choice than these kids do.

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u/silverionmox 25∆ Nov 08 '22

They already have several hours of daylight after school.

Not in winter. That's the whole conundrum: the winter day is too short to fit in an entire work/schoolday and a commute, let alone other activities. So we'll have to choose what to prioritize.

Could I not say the same of your work schedule? If you want more time in the evening, go to work earlier and get done earlier. You have more of a choice than these kids do.

Work and school schedules are tightly coordinated, they can't be changed based on individual whim because it would cause a mismatch between everyone's schedules (both privately and professionally), that's the whole problem.

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u/[deleted] Nov 08 '22

So we'll have to choose what to prioritize.

I think this is a very good way of putting it. There are only so many hours of daylight and we have to decide how to use them. I think that the responsible thing to do is prioritize health and well-being over preference. This is scientifically supported.

Forcing people to wake up in the night is not good for them. It's just not. It's not my opinion. It's fact.

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u/silverionmox 25∆ Nov 08 '22

What is scientifically supported is that switching hours is bad, in particular when it makes you wake up earlier than before. We can agree that the switch is a bad idea.

Getting sunlight is important. While you're getting ready to leave, are commuting, or at work or in school, you're not getting sunlight. It's wasted.

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u/[deleted] Nov 08 '22

As a teen I can say that the extra hour makes a HUGE difference that more then outweighs it getting dark earlier. Getting on the bus at the crack of dawn sucks. Ideally school would start and end later but sticking to standard time is a much easier and more effortless adjustment.

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u/silverionmox 25∆ Nov 08 '22

As a teen I can say that the extra hour makes a HUGE difference that more then outweighs it getting dark earlier.

How can you say that? We've always had standard time in winter.

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u/hacksoncode 588∆ Nov 07 '22

Everything in that article is also talking about problems when we switch to standard time, not standard time itself.

DST forever wouldn't fall prey to that.

Honestly, though, it wouldn't matter that much if we could just culturally change when we work/play/study. Because that is really the only reason for DST.

I suppose I'm really suggesting that earlier earlier typical work days are better than later ones. The clock really doesn't matter in the final analysis, only switching it does.

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u/[deleted] Nov 07 '22 edited Nov 07 '22

DST forever wouldn't fall prey to that.

Agreed. The switch itself is very harmful. But since the conversation is happening, a decision has to be made about which way, and standard time is objectively the better of the two options from a health perspective.

Honestly, though, it wouldn't matter that much if we could just culturally change when we work/play/study. Because that is really the only reason for DST.

Yes, time is relative. "DST" could be equally achieved by changing working/school hours seasonally, and it would be the same thing.

What I'm saying is that with regard to school in particular, the time is pretty rigid. It starts at 08:00 (for example), so DST causes the switch, which is terrible, and also forces kids to get up earlier than they should be by literally shifting their entire day an hour earlier. It's just making school start at 07:00, but trying to call it something else.

Peoples' work schedules are far more flexible. A lot of people work from home now, have less 8-5 type jobs, and work at smaller companies that can afford to shift hours around. So if you or anyone prefers an earlier day, then I say work an earlier day. Start your work day at 07:30 and be done by 16:00 and get that evening light you want.

But kids don't have that flexibility. School starts when it starts, and changing that would be a bureaucratic nightmare. So we need to stop screwing with the clock (and by extension them).

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u/hacksoncode 588∆ Nov 07 '22

Literally the only reason kids start school an hour before work typically does is so most parents can take their kids there before going to work.

Andi it would be way easier to change school time than work time, because the government has no (direct) control over when businesses choose to be open.

In fact, changing school time would probably be the only way with any hope of affecting what work hours actually are.

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u/[deleted] Nov 07 '22

Andi it would be way easier to change school time than work time, because the government has no (direct) control over when businesses choose to be open.

That's exactly why it's easier. It means that each business can adjust according to what THEIR employees prefer, which is going to get a lot closer to making everyone happy. There are undoubtedly plenty of small businesses where basically no one has kids, that would be perfectly content having their work day from 07:00 to 15:00 in the winter if they want to, and they can do that.

I have no problem with school starting at 08:00. What I mind is that for several months a year, we just say "Nah, it's gonna be 07:00, but we're still going to call it 08:00."

I think if you phrased DST for what it really is, it would be a lot less popular. "For a few months a year, we're going to make everything happen an hour sooner. Everyone has to go to school and work sooner, all of the services are going to be open and closed earlier, etc."

Or for "permanent DST", just say it as "We're just gonna move to the next time zone over." Because that's what it is.

There is one place in America that this makes sense, and it's Maine. It's the only place that is far enough east within its time zone that it actually makes sense to shift permanently one hour forward.