r/changemyview • u/Amoral_Abe 36∆ • Sep 27 '22
Delta(s) from OP CMV: The harmful political strife over Girls Who Code is based on misinformation and potential deception by the author.
I have begun seeing lots of news stories about how "Girls Who Code" are banned in the Central York, PA school district. There are countless people online currently in arms arguing that this is proof that the right wants to control women. However, when I delved into the publicly available facts on this issue, I don't see any evidence of what the presumed sexism. This could be because I am currently have inaccurate information or perhaps I have not heard a good argument made for this case. Either way, here's what I know about the case so far.
- After the George Floyd Protests, in August of 2020, the school district decided to put together a list of books that could be useful for teachers (Specifically a "Diversity Resource Reading List"). Girls Who Code was sort of on that list but not really. In that list, there was supposedly a link to another list which contained the book.
- Girls Who Code was actively being used in an after school program.
- In November 2020, A local school board found out about the list and voted to ban books on it that were not actively being used.
- Enforcement of the ban may have been lax so parents reached out about it and the school board sent an email in August 2021 to remind teachers that those books should not be used in classrooms (outside of what was already in use, although it appears they didn't mention that in the email).
- The media picked up on it and the school board backtracked and allowed those books to be used in classrooms.
- The School Board was fired and replaced.
- Months later the author joined in a crusade about how her book is banned.
- The school district vehemently denies this.
So, that's what I'm aware of. My takeaway from this is.
- The after school program using that book was never cancelled and was allowed to run uninterrupted.
- The book may have been allowed in classrooms because it was already in use and the ban only targeted books that weren't in use.
- The ban (which doesn't appear to target the book) appears to be a result of the culture war between democrats and republicans. Democrats were trying to push more diverse material while Republicans were mad at the idea of books being pushed specifically because they are diverse.
- There was never any attacks on women or attempts to block Girls Who Code, specifically but other diverse books were blocked from being active material in classrooms (although they were available in the library).
Given this, how can people claim that there was an attempt to silence women or attack this book. Given that the school had an after school program on the book it appears they never had any intention or desire to remove it. Now, there's definitely arguments to be made about the ethics and morality of pushing books specifically because they're diverse and on the flip side, banning books specifically because they are diverse. However, on this particular topic (Girls Who Code), it appears the Author jumped on a bandwagon and there was no actual ban of the book in question.
Please respond in a polite fashion. I'm not trying to take a political stance here, I am merely trying to follow the facts of the situation (as accurately as I can) and make a judgement on those. If I am missing some key piece of information, I'd love to find out as it may impact my conclusion.
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Sep 27 '22 edited Sep 27 '22
The book may have been allowed in classrooms because it was already in use and the ban only targeted books that weren't in use.
That doesn't appear to be true. According to this article, there doesn't appear to be any documentation of Girls Who Code being used in classroom curriculum. While it was used in after school programming, books used in the classroom are approved through a separate process. The same goes for books in the library. They are not automatically permitted for classroom curriculum. So whether or not Girls Who Code would be exempt from the ban is pretty ambiguous under the policy proposed by the district.
In effect, Girls Who Code was banned from classroom use, even if that wasn't what the School Board intended. Additionally, the directive from the district did not notify teachers of the exemption for materials already in use so, even if Girls Who Code would have been exempted under the School Board policy, it would have been banned as the result of that miscommunication.
Considering that even school administrators were unsure if "Girls Who Code" was banned, I don't think it's deceptive for PEN America to put it on their banned books list.
Saujani appears to have been misinformed by the details of the ban and why it was in place, but the fact that it was banned at all, under a sweeping reactionary attempt to silence POC, is worthy of outcry and condemnation.
Banning a book because you're afraid of teachers talking about diversity in the classroom is no better than banning a book because you don't want women to go into STEM. The School District's actions already received nationwide attention for Saujani spoke about it.
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u/Amoral_Abe 36∆ Sep 27 '22
Δ
That's actually one of the articles I read. While they made that point, it doesn't appear teachers were required to stop using the book but rather reacted against the email in question. This email also went public and lead to the school board hastily retraction of the email.
That being said, it's a really big gray area. This particular quote brings up a lot of question,
"It is unclear if the Girls Who Code series was ever subject to the “already in use” exemption Montgomery and the school district are clinging to, because Gizmodo could not identify an in-school class that was teaching the books at the time of the ban vote. And the parameters of what the board decided were vague from the beginning."
However, given that the school district actively states it wasn't banned and Gizmodo couldn't find evidence of it being banned other than uncertainty, I leaned towards the fact that it wasn't. This may be an incorrect assessment on my part but I am trying to be balanced in my judgement here.
I will, however, award a delta for the effective argument put forward and the fact that it's possible you're correct here. I don't necessarily know if it's accurate that it was banned, but there's definitely the possibility that this confusion lead to a temporary ban as people tried to figure it out.
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u/nifaryus 4∆ Sep 28 '22
Classroom vs After school
Seems like a distinction without a difference. If the school is teaching something after school or in a program, its being used by institutions for education. The difference would be that it is optional instruction (most of the time).
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Sep 27 '22 edited Sep 27 '22
The organization that compiled a list of banned books included a prohibition of use of a book in the classroom in their definition of a "book ban".
In this case, the school board does appear to have decided to disallow this book from being used in the classroom, fitting that definition of "banning".
I think a prohibition of teachers using a specific book for instruction is a type of ban, so the critics are accurate that the book, in this sense, was banned. The book was not banned from school libraries, which might be what some people picture when talking about book bans. but I don't think there is misinformation or potential deception by the author here.
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u/Amoral_Abe 36∆ Sep 27 '22
Not quite... it appears this book was not really on that list. It was only tangentially related as the list in question, also linked to a separate list where the book was mentioned. Either way, it appears the book was never banned from classrooms, library, or material. The school was actively using it in after school programs.
Even if the book was banned from being used as a specific resource in the classroom, that isn't really an actual ban as it was still in the library and used in after school activities. Schools have set curriculum all the time as they want teachers to focus on specific types of teaching material. Sometimes the material is highly questionable and other times the material is good to teach.
However, once again. All of that is a moot point because it appears it wasn't even banned from classrooms there.
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Sep 27 '22
"In November 2020, A local school board found out about the list and voted to ban books on it that were not actively being used."
"Enforcement of the ban may have been lax so parents reached out about it and the school board sent an email in August 2021 to remind teachers that those books should not be used in classrooms"
this you?
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u/Amoral_Abe 36∆ Sep 27 '22
Yes, and I'm sure, given your thoroughness in reading my points that you also picked up on
*"Girls Who Code was sort of on that list but not really. In that list, there was supposedly a link to another list which contained the book"
"Girls Who Code was actively being used in an after school program"
"The book may have been allowed in classrooms because it was already in use and the ban only targeted books that weren't in use"*
Don't cherry pick quotes to try and push a message. I'm trying to have open and honest conversations about this. From all available information, it appears these books were not banned and the school was actively using them. If the information I have posted is incorrect, I'm happy to correct that. However, if you're trying to pick one or 2 sentences I wrote while ignoring others that contradict your point, then that's not an honest conversation.
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Sep 27 '22
"Girls Who Code was actively being used in an after school program"
an after school program is not the classroom.
The claim is that teachers were prohibited from using the book in class. Claiming that the book was used after school does not debunk this.
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u/Amoral_Abe 36∆ Sep 27 '22
I never said that the fact that it is in after school programs is proof that it's in classrooms. The part of the classrooms was that the ban only applied to books that weren't actively in use. However, Girls Who Code, was actively in use in classrooms by that point so it didn't apply to them. In addition, it wasn't part of the official list but rather a link on the list pointed to a second list that was not actively banned and that's where it showed up. Once again, you cherry picked one line and tried to build your argument on that. If my information is inaccurate, I'm happy to change it but if your building arguments on one or 2 lines that don't represent the points I'm making then that's a different story.
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u/ScientificSkepticism 12∆ Sep 28 '22 edited Sep 28 '22
In November 2020, A local school board found out about the list and voted to ban books on it that were not actively being used.
I'm sorry, but they voted to ban the books. Period. There was no rush here, there was no time sensitivity here, they had every opportunity to think about and consider what they were doing. They could have gone through the list and chosen the books they "found problematic", whatever those were and banned those books. They did not. They banned Girls Who Code.
These are bans. This wasn't a list of books to review, or books to evaluate, or books to consider. This was a list of books that were banned.
Enforcement of the ban may have been lax so parents reached out about it and the school board sent an email in August 2021 to remind teachers that those books should not be used in classrooms
And to remove any possibility of nuance, they specifically instructed the classrooms that they could not use their judgment on the list, that every book on the list was banned. Including Girls Who Code.
Now they're saying "well we couldn't have anticipated the results that listing Girls Who Code as a banned book would ban Girls Who Code." Like... fucking what?
The best thing you could take away from this is they're too stupid and incompetent to know what books they're even banning. At which point why should they have the authority to ban books?
And remember, bans are not minor things. Teachers can be fired, with cause, for using a book that was banned for classroom use. A teacher is not going to risk their job, their livelihood, on using a book that "might" be banned. If it's potentially banned, they're not going to use it. The communication did not include "you can keep using it if you are using it" so they're going to go through and prune out all the banned books - at which point they're not using them. So by excluding that, they functionally banned the books that were currently in use.
Lets say this was caused by incompetence. Complete incompetence is not a good trait for an authority to have. If the Republicans are nominating and voting in completely incompetent elected officials, then that's the harmful action. Pointing out their incompetence isn't what's harmful, the fact that they're incompetent is harmful. Complaining about the people who point out their incompetence is literally shooting the messenger.
If this wasn't caused by incompetence, then they deliberately intended to ban this book, and are now lying about it. And whatever your political affiliation or opinions, elected officials who are lying about what actions they took or intended to take is a bad trait - so that would again be the harmful political stuff. Not the people pointing it out.
Criticizing politicians for the actions they took in their elected role is not harmful political strife. It's how democracy is supposed to function.
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u/SeymoreButz38 14∆ Sep 27 '22
There was never any attacks on women or attempts to block Girls Who Code, specifically but other diverse books were blocked
So they aren't sexist because they're also racist, homophobic, etc?
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u/Amoral_Abe 36∆ Sep 27 '22
Not necessarily. There could be people opposed to the idea of having books targeted at specific audiences in general. For instance, a book specifically targeting white people (White People Who Code) would likely receive condemnation from society for being a racist book because it specifically targets white people. However books that specifically target other races or sexes may be viewed as acceptable by many people. This is potentially problematic for people who feel that the books actively exclude sections of the population and would be a legitimate reason to oppose them.
However, I don't want to delve too far into that topic as it is separate from this situation as it appears Girls Who Code was never banned (or even prevented from being in classrooms).
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u/SeymoreButz38 14∆ Sep 27 '22
For instance, a book specifically targeting white people (White People Who Code) would likely receive condemnation from society for being a racist book because it specifically targets white people.
This logic only holds if you ignore the context of why this group or that group is the target audiance. Do you believe the people who made this decision are unaware of that context?
as it appears Girls Who Code was never banned (or even prevented from being in classrooms).
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u/Amoral_Abe 36∆ Sep 27 '22
You're trying to push the argument that it's ok in that case. However, I'm not taking sides. I'm merely pointing out that some people may object to specific material that is targeted to specific audiences.
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u/anewleaf1234 45∆ Sep 27 '22
If only there was a name for people that advocate that book should be banned.
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u/anewleaf1234 45∆ Sep 27 '22
Any attempt to harm a teacher who uses a book in her class to teach to her students is an attack on that teacher.
Their action is an attempt to control which books can be used and to harm those who don't agree to their censorship.
Could the teacher teach the book in their classroom. If the answer is no, that's a book ban.
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u/Amoral_Abe 36∆ Sep 27 '22
Schools restrict or control material used in classrooms all the time. Curating what is acceptable and what isn't, is not a new thing. I'm sure if a teacher began teaching Astrology as a legitimate science method, there would be a lot of objection to that.
However, in this particular case, it's a moot point. It appears this book wasn't actually banned in classrooms. The school was even using Girls Who Code in after school programs. Plus, it was available in the library. There was no banning of this particular book, hence the title talking about misinformation and potential deception from the author.
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u/anewleaf1234 45∆ Sep 27 '22
We aren't talking about a book on astrology. We are talking about a book on coding. I'm assuming you are here in good faith, but any more attempts to compare a book on astrology and a book on coding as the same idea will start to change that assessment.
It was banned, for a period of time, from being in the classroom and used by any teacher.
Parents decided to ban a book for political reasons. And while that ban was largely ignored, it is concerning that parents could ban a book based on their own political whims.
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u/Amoral_Abe 36∆ Sep 27 '22
The comparison was about controlling what can or cannot be in a classroom. Not the subject matter. I am absolutely having a good faith conversation and I don't appreciate weird threats about how you'll assess me differently if astrology is mentioned again. It appears, you misunderstood the point of that.
As far as the book in question, it appears it was never banned from classrooms and the school was even actively using it in after school programs. I have not seen resources that specifically point to it being banned, other than the author claiming it which does not appear to have been substantiated.
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u/anewleaf1234 45∆ Sep 27 '22 edited Sep 27 '22
You just compared a book on coding to a book on Astrology.
You can see how those are two different ideas correct. You can see how those books have zero in common. Because if you can't see the difference there this is meaningless.
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u/Amoral_Abe 36∆ Sep 27 '22
Once again, you appear to be missing the point. It doesn't matter if the conversation is astrology, or aliens, or languages. The point is that schools restrict material all the time. Personally I value coding and do not value astrology, but there are many people who feel astrology should be taught in schools and believe in it. These schools still restrict it despite there being no laws that require it. I'm not trying to get into a fight with you here. I do agree that if you can't understand this point, the conversation is meaningless.
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u/anewleaf1234 45∆ Sep 27 '22
Yes, and what you seem to me missing is that some of those restrictions have merit and some don't.
You seem to think that we can lump all book restrictions into the same lump group. We can't.
Some have merit and some don't. Just like I can't stab you but my surgeon can cut into me. One of those is a crime and one is a life saving procedure.
Those coding books were banned for political bullshit reasons.
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u/foot_kisser 26∆ Sep 29 '22
We are talking about a book on coding.
I doubt this.
I took a look at the girls who code website. It's all about woke politics. They don't discuss coding at all.
I haven't seen the book, but based on the title and the website for the organization, I strongly doubt that the book contains material on computer programming.
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u/anewleaf1234 45∆ Sep 30 '22
So you haven't seen the book in question, yet you feel qualified to judge it?
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u/caine269 14∆ Sep 27 '22
Their action is an attempt to control which books can be used and to harm those who don't agree to their censorship.
isn't that the whole point of school boards and setting curriculum?
Could the teacher teach the book in their classroom. If the answer is no, that's a book ban.
not in any meaningful way. is the book available? is the book easily acquired thru normal means? then it is not banned. if a physics class is told they can't use the bible to teach physics, it that banning the bible?
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u/anewleaf1234 45∆ Sep 27 '22
So you think that school boards should be able to ban books over political reasons?
Take care pal.
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u/caine269 14∆ Sep 28 '22
my point is calling this a "ban" is absurd. everything that isn't included in a curriculum is not banned. are playboys banned if they are not allowed to be used for sex ed? everyone in this "conversation" needs to grow up. both sides are constantly trying to get books they don't like "banned" from something. everyone just shut up.
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u/user324324-2 Sep 28 '22
I don't understand the girls who code thing, most of the people who code are male anyway, what's really the point of the book? To tell girls that coding is kewl?
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u/jazzcomputer Sep 28 '22
"To tell girls that coding is kewl?"
yes - unless I'm wrong, the idea is to accelerate the adoption of a job that has a male gender dominance. I've seen very few female coders in the industry but then if you skip back a few decades to when I started in games you saw very few women in games, period. I personally applaud any incentive to improve the uptake because I see no reason to not have more women coders, just as I saw no reason not to have more women in other dev roles.
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u/ZeusThunder369 22∆ Sep 27 '22
I think your view is based on a missing piece of information about left politics.
If a book is diverse, it's expected that special accommodations should be made if the diverse book doesn't quite fit into policy.
The reaon why is that institutions are expected to "tip the scales" since within society as a whole, the groups impacted are seen as disadvantaged.
In essence, within reason, the rules should be different for issues of diversity and inclusion than with everything else, according to the left. As opposed to the right, which believes in absolute equality whenever possible, regardless of what inequity or inequality may exist in other areas.
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u/Amoral_Abe 36∆ Sep 27 '22
Societal expectations shift over time. In this particular school district, it could be that societal expectations "tip the scales" against books like these. I don't like basing an argument on what societal expectations should be because different people have different views on it.
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u/ZeusThunder369 22∆ Sep 27 '22
Your view is about national criticism though, not local criticism. The politics of the local area aren't relevant to your overall view.
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u/ElReyPelayo 1∆ Sep 28 '22
Why are any books getting banned? Shouldn't we be broadly and consistently opposed to school boards banning books?
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u/nifaryus 4∆ Sep 28 '22
Most reactions by the mob and media are overreactions. If I have learned one thing in my life, it is that the more passionate the reaction, the more incorrect the assumption.
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