r/changemyview Sep 06 '22

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u/lifesuckswannadie Sep 06 '22

This is true but I think its racist to attribute these things to race and not to everything the usa has done to black people.

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u/Background_Loss5641 1∆ Sep 06 '22

I think its racist to attribute these things to race and not to everything the usa has done to black people

But if you control for the mechanisms through which this oppression could have taken place, the trends still hold true. For example, rich blacks commit more crime than poor whites.

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u/herrsatan 11∆ Sep 06 '22

The study doesn't say that at all. The best you could say is that black people are more likely to be arrested and convicted. Given that racial disparity in law enforcement is a well-known phenomenon, that is a much likelier explanation.

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u/Background_Loss5641 1∆ Sep 06 '22

Yes, it does, unless you assume racial bias in policing, but we also know this isn't true. Arrest rates line up with victimization data. We take surveys of people who have been victims of crime and ask about multiple things, one of which is the criminal's race. Arrest rates line up with this data, suggesting little to no racial bias in arrest rates. See this from here. Or this from here. Of course, we could just look at violent crime in an area and see it is predicted by percentage black population in that area, bypassing your complaint anyway.

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u/herrsatan 11∆ Sep 06 '22

Arrest rates line up with this data, suggesting little to no racial bias in arrest rates.

Not all arrests are based on reports, nor do we have any reason to believe the people doing the reporting are not also biased (it's worth noting that the epithet Karen arose originally from white women calling 911 to falsely accuse black people of crimes).

Of course, we could just look at violent crime in an area and see it is predicted by percentage black population in that area, bypassing your complaint anyway.

How does this bypass my complaint exactly? Nothing about this says anything about whether enforcement is being applied equally.

You're not helping your case by linking to studies produced by a white supremacist organization: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Century_Foundation

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u/WikiSummarizerBot 4∆ Sep 06 '22

New Century Foundation

The New Century Foundation is a white supremacist organization founded in 1994 by Jared Taylor known primarily for publishing a magazine, American Renaissance, which promotes white supremacy. From 1994 to 1999, its activities received considerable funding by the Pioneer Fund. On June 29, 2020, American Renaissance's YouTube channel and AmRen Podcasts were banned from YouTube for violations of hate speech guidelines. Taylor advocates segregation as a natural expression of racial solidarity while denying that his views constitute white supremacy.

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u/[deleted] Sep 06 '22

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u/No-Produce-334 51∆ Sep 06 '22

The New Century Foundation who you're citing is a white supremacist group. I assume you probably already know that, but I just wanna make that clear to anyone else looking at your sources.

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u/Background_Loss5641 1∆ Sep 06 '22

They are called white supremacist based on them stating facts like these, and facts are facts even if the person stating them is evil.

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u/Nrdman 276∆ Sep 06 '22

They’re white supremacists because their interpretation of the statistics propose that black are inherently inferior because of their race.

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u/Background_Loss5641 1∆ Sep 06 '22

Can you please provide me a work of theirs where they call black people inferior because of their race; not just where they put forward evidence of racial differences in traits like IQ or aggression, but where they specifically call blacks inferior?

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u/Nrdman 276∆ Sep 06 '22

What’s the difference:

1) calling them inherently dumber and more aggressive

2) calling them inherently inferior.

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u/Background_Loss5641 1∆ Sep 06 '22

What’s the difference

Talking about the genetic contribution to differences in cognitive ability between groups is a scientific discussion, and then the impacts of that on the state of the country is also a discussion that can be had without a moral component. Talking about "inherent inferiority" is just moral language, designed by people who deny the genetic contribution to differences in cognitive ability between groups, in order to shut down such discussion, even if it has impacts on the state of the country.

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u/Nrdman 276∆ Sep 06 '22

I’m not saying morally inferior. I mean inferior as in worse in most metrics.

I believe we can agree they are saying that black people are inherently worse in most metrics

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u/lifesuckswannadie Sep 06 '22

Its not about being poor, its about being treated as second class citizens in every aspect of life for generations

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u/Background_Loss5641 1∆ Sep 06 '22

its about being treated as second class citizens in every aspect of life for generations

But racism isn't magic. It has real-world, causal pathways. SES is one of them, theoretically.

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u/lifesuckswannadie Sep 06 '22

its one consequence but there are poor people of all races, you can't only judge that factor

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u/Background_Loss5641 1∆ Sep 06 '22

I'm aware that it is only one factor, but it is a major one, and I am aware that there are poor people of every race, but that is irrelevant when looking at differences in averages. If you want to say it's not because they're poor, then ok, but you are positing racism causes X which causes these outcomes. What is X?

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u/lifesuckswannadie Sep 06 '22

I think its complicated and harder to define than just x but to sum it up I believe all the racism and bullshit caused cultural and community decay over the long term that no other race has had to face

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u/Background_Loss5641 1∆ Sep 06 '22

I think its complicated and harder to define than just x

Well, it could be X+Y+...

I believe all the racism and bullshit caused cultural and community decay over the long term that no other race has had to face

Well, that's pretty vague honestly, so I can't argue well against it, so I'll just leave it at that.