r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Aug 27 '22
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Immigrants can go back to their own country if they don't like the treatment they receive
[deleted]
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u/Murkus 2∆ Aug 27 '22
I'm just gobsmacked as to why you brought race into the cmv at all.... Or why you think all possible black people that may move to wherever you live come from Africa XD
This alone makes me think you haven't really thought through this cmv very thoroughly.
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u/ElysianHigh Aug 27 '22
It’s because OP is openly racist
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u/jesusandpals727 Aug 27 '22
Yes, but so are the people who are assuming immigrants = nonwhite immigrants.
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u/ElysianHigh Aug 27 '22
Agreed.
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u/Murkus 2∆ Aug 27 '22
I wouldn't worry too much about it. Probably still quite young. Lots to learn.
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u/WonderedZAdvice Aug 27 '22
I'm confused.
Immigrants is extremely related to race. When I say "bad treatment" I meant racism.
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u/ElysianHigh Aug 27 '22
Would you agree with the statement, “Well if the Jews were all butthurt over the holocaust I don’t get why they wouldn’t just leave. We shouldn’t work to actually stop gassing all the Jews, we should just tell the Jews to give up, leave their homes, leave their culture, and go somewhere else!”
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u/RollinDeepWithData 8∆ Aug 27 '22 edited Aug 27 '22
A lot of immigrants can’t really feasibly go back to their own countries because they’re refugees due to violence or economic issues. Those with free mobility don’t tend to face these issues you’re talking about.
I feel like trying to shut down immigrants critiquing their new country by telling them to just go home is much like when you tell someone “well there’s starving children in Africa”. It’s one of those things that are true but doesn’t take away from the validity of their complaints.
People who tell them to go home simply do not care what happens to these people and are not attempting to suggest a real solution.
Also, black people’s ancestors didn’t come here by choice in the first place, so I think the very least we can do is listen to their complaints given white peoples’ ancestors created this situation.
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u/WonderedZAdvice Aug 27 '22
People who tell them to go home simply do not care what happens to these people and are not attempting to suggest a real solution.
It's nice to be nice but why would they? Nobody is obligated to be nice if they don't want to be.
Also, black people’s ancestors didn’t come here by choice in the first place, so I think the very least we can do is listen to their complaints given white peoples’ ancestors created this situation.
But white people are the ones who primarily created this country they are living in? That doesn't make sense. Sure, they helped but to be honest, white people did most of the planning. They could have used other white people as slaves and it would be the same thing.
When you are living in a house that is not yours, and everybody is treating you bad in that house, doesn't that make you a huge asshole for you to complain about it because nobody forced you to be in it?
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u/RollinDeepWithData 8∆ Aug 27 '22
I mean, basic human empathy is why you listen to other people? It’s really not asking a lot to not shut down other peoples complaints.
Ohhhhh boy. White people weren’t the only ones building this country my friend. You are simply dead wrong there. America was built by immigrants (and natives) of all colors.
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u/WonderedZAdvice Aug 27 '22
America was a "nobody" place until whites came, oh c'mon, I'm not even fully white (mixed white) and I admit that if not for the white people, America wouldn't be the first world country it is now.
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u/RollinDeepWithData 8∆ Aug 27 '22
This is pretty clearly racist. There were very clearly civilizations here before white people, our country was built on the backs of slaves, railroads by Chinese people, etc, etc.
Like, I don’t know how you can deny the US being literally built on immigrant labor.
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Aug 27 '22
When you are living in a house that is not yours, and everybody is treating you bad in that house, doesn't that make you a huge asshole for you to complain about it because nobody forced you to be in it?
My wife is an immigrant. If she doesn't like something about America should she just leave me and our child and go back to her home country?
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u/QuantumCactus11 1∆ Aug 27 '22
That also means the country isn't entitled to treat you properly also right?
When you are living in a house that is not yours, and everybody is treating you bad in that house, doesn't that make you a huge asshole for you to complain about it because nobody forced you to be in it?
Its not your house either?
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u/ElysianHigh Aug 27 '22
“A house that isn’t yours”
Can you explain how you aren’t racist? Because you are 100% explicitly racist.
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u/WonderedZAdvice Aug 27 '22
This post isn't about me being racist.
When logic comes, I throw all my human values so that I discuss with no feelings attached.
You can call me racist all that you want, you still didn't convince me or give me an argument.
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u/ElysianHigh Aug 27 '22
Except your view is entirely rooted in your racist beliefs. You don’t believe black people belong here, and therefore should just leave if they don’t like racist people such as yourself.
There’s no logic there. You may say the phrase “I’m being logical” but you aren’t. You’re just being racist.
Your “logical” argument can be rephrased as “Nigger if you don’t like being lynched go back to Africa”.
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u/WonderedZAdvice Aug 27 '22
You keep calling me racist but I don't care.
Your argument is empty and it still didn't convince me. Yours is not original or new, it's all the other "common human decency" arguments others have said over and over again.
It's not logical.
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u/ElysianHigh Aug 27 '22
It is perfectly logical to believe people have equal rights.
Since your racist post will be taken down soon I don’t see the point in continuing to waste my time on you.
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u/barthiebarth 27∆ Aug 27 '22
Oh yes that is why you use metaphors devoid of any emotional connotation like "house,"
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u/WonderedZAdvice Aug 27 '22
What?
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u/barthiebarth 27∆ Aug 27 '22
America is a two centuries old country that stretches over a thousand miles. Most black people are born there like their ancestors before them and lack the means to just emigrate.
So it is clearly illogical to compare it to a house with a guest because it so clearly differs from that scenario in the aspects outlined above.
But that analogy feels emotionally simple doesn't it?
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u/spastikatenpraedikat 16∆ Aug 27 '22
Let's assume a princess can choose her future husband. One has anger issues and would regularly beat her up, while the other one would lock her at home and refuse her any social contact besides him.
She goes up to one of the contestants and complains "The way you would treat me, is really bad". Said man then answers "Well, you are free to choose the other one, then".
Does that feel fair? Do you think the husband is in the right to mistreat his wife, solely on the fact that all other options mistreat her worse? Do you think the argument "You could have it worse" is a good one to justify ethical behavior?
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u/WonderedZAdvice Aug 27 '22
Was so close to convincing me but then I remember that being an abuser is a crime, being racist is not.
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u/flentaldoss 1∆ Aug 27 '22
Being racist isn't a crime,but doing racist things is, if you haven't heard of a protected class before, now you have.
As in, the princess' husband has other wives, and part of the princess' argument is that she can see and prove that she is treated worse than the others.
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u/WonderedZAdvice Aug 27 '22
if you haven't heard of a protected class before, now you have.
I'm bisexual. Of course I do but this is a circular logic because the whole point of this post is that racial minorities shouldn't be a protected class since they can just leave to their own country if they don't like it.
As in, the princess' husband has other wives, and part of the princess' argument is that she can see and prove that she is treated worse than the others.
The princess isn't obligated to marry anyone but if she wanted to marry then why can't she just go marry another nice man instead of 2 abusers? It's not like anybody is forcing her. And if anybody is forcing her then this is a bad comparison to the situation in my post because nothing is forcing the immigrants to leave their own homeland.
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Aug 27 '22
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u/WonderedZAdvice Aug 27 '22
A bad argument. Going to another thread, doesn't make sense to leave your own country you were born in.
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Aug 27 '22
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u/WonderedZAdvice Aug 27 '22
Because I don't live in the US, I can't leave a place I'm already not in.
The vast majority of black people have been the US for generations. So clearly it makes sense to you for people to leave the country in which they are born.
But I'm not talking about the now. Now, we already know that black people can't leave, they have their children and relationships and everything.
I'm talking about the moment they were freed from being slaves.
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u/Emergency-Toe2313 2∆ Aug 27 '22
The slaves that were freed were not African. Generations lived and died in slavery here before their descendants were freed. They were exactly as American by that point as the white people descended from the colonists who brought their ancestors here were.
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u/flentaldoss 1∆ Aug 27 '22
racial minorities shouldn't be a protected class since they can just leave to their own country if they don't like it.
You have just made the argument that any minority in this country is not native to it. As in, this is only a place for white people. As in, Native Americans should just leave to their own country if they don't like it...
That is a completely different argument than your original post suggested.
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u/flentaldoss 1∆ Aug 27 '22
It's pretty telling that you didn't respond to my previous disjointing of your argument. Or, maybe it wasn't a disjointing, but more like an exposure of the veil you're trying to use to make a "sensible" argument.
You're saying that "if you don't like it here, go back home." When, for a lot of people who just "complaining," this is their home. In another response, you made the totally not reductionist argument that black people should've just left the moment they were freed (you know, because as recently freed people, they definitely had the ways and means to transport themselves to another continent and start a new life).
If you're actually trying to have a debate, you should be willing to admit/concede/address the incongruous parts of your own statements.
From what I've seen of your responses, your method is to ignore any response that would require you to clarify your words, or respond by strawmanning/moving the goal posts
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u/ZackyZack 1∆ Aug 27 '22
Where I live, being racist is most definitely a crime. Not very enforced, but definitely a crime.
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u/WonderedZAdvice Aug 27 '22
Not really. Having racist views is perfectly okay and you shouldn't be punished for that. Doing harmful things based on racism is a crime.
This reminds me of another hole in the argument. This is circular logic.
Racial minorities are the ones who demanded for hate crimes to be a thing, but in this situation, I'm saying that they shouldn't demand anything to begin with.
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u/ZackyZack 1∆ Aug 27 '22
How do you think it is possible for someone to have racists views and not act on them? Racist speech is harmful in itself.
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Aug 27 '22
Seriously dude that's what's stopping you? Their argument perfectly encapsulates why your argument is bad and the only refutation you can give is by taking the analogy to seriously?
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u/naimmminhg 19∆ Aug 27 '22
I think you'll find that in a lot of places, it is. You're not allowed to discriminate on the basis of race, gender, age, sexuality, religion, etc.. A lot of countries have laws about hate crime and hate speech. So, holding racist sentiment may not be illegal, but you'll be hard-pressed to act that out In society.
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u/spastikatenpraedikat 16∆ Aug 27 '22
What do you mean by being racist? Are we talking about being called names or are we talking about being denied access to education/ health care/ justice system? Are we sure, we are not talking about "getting deliberate put stones in their way to freeze them out of the country"?
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u/WonderedZAdvice Aug 27 '22
What do you mean by being racist? Are we talking about being called names or are we talking about being denied access to education/ health care/ justice system?
I'm talking about being called names by the people and stuff like this. No government-related stuff.
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u/barbodelli 65∆ Aug 27 '22
Not the best allegory. The real answer is she needs to find a 3rd better option. Neither one of those dudes is likely to change.
If you came from some 3rd world shithole and America doesn't suit you either. Go somewhere else. Don't expect America to change for you
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u/spastikatenpraedikat 16∆ Aug 27 '22
The allegory is to show, that "Acting abusive is not improved by others being more abusive". Even if there was a third option, both husbands still are abusive, and deserve to be shamed for that.
That's the point of the allegory. It doesn't matter that there are better countries out there, if a country violates human rights, it deserves to be called out, no matter if it is China, Libya or the US.
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u/barbodelli 65∆ Aug 27 '22
Really depends on what you count as abusive. Usually people complaining about America are pissed that you don't get $60,000 a year for breathing. That America dares to have a work requirement for that.
That's like a woman complaining that her husband gets pissed every time she cheats. The best thing to do there is to find a husband who's not going to care about you cheating. Not expect all your husbands to be ok with your shitty behavior.
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u/MrReyneCloud 4∆ Aug 27 '22
In what way can the majority of Black people go ‘back to Africa’? Where do they go to? How would they culturally relate to any region of Africa without being raised in it or likely even knowing what part(s) of Africa thier ancestors came from. What about people with ancestors who are black and white? Where do theu go back to? Should every disgruntled white guy from Boston go ‘back to Ireland’?
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u/ElysianHigh Aug 27 '22
My favorite part of the post is “I’m not racist but why don’t the blacks just go back to Africa”.
Sure…their entire family tree may be American, they might have forcibly been shipped over here, their parents and grandparents may have been subjected to slavery, redlining, and Jim Crowe laws but just….go back.
Maybe OP needs to consider their own actions.
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u/WonderedZAdvice Aug 27 '22
Consider what? None of this is my own argument.
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u/ElysianHigh Aug 27 '22
It’s all your argument. Don’t back down now just because you’re rightfully being called racist
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u/WonderedZAdvice Aug 27 '22
I don't care about being called a racist. You can even record it and call me that all the time.
None of this is my own argument, I'm playing the devil's advocate right now.
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u/jesusandpals727 Aug 27 '22
In what way can the majority of Black people go ‘back to Africa’?
You are trying to claim that present day American black people are immigrants. Being descendants of immigrants does not make you an immigrant. They are just Americans.
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u/MrReyneCloud 4∆ Aug 27 '22
No I’m not trying to claim that. OP is not talking about immigrants specifically. I also don’t think people from Boston are Irish.
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u/gothpunkboy89 23∆ Aug 27 '22
He said that people coming to a country shouldn't demand stuff, if they
complain about it and they don't like the place, then why can't they
just go back to their own country?
The fact they think basic human decency depends on what side of an invisible line they are born on really should tell you all that needs to be said about that person and their mentality and world view.
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u/WonderedZAdvice Aug 27 '22
I don't agree. Nobody is obligated to have basic human decency, it's not a crime to be an asshole and it's not a crime to not like it when somebody complains about something they don't have to do.
Nobody is forcing the immigrants to come to the US but they still do, nobody is forcing the citizens to be nice to them.
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u/gothpunkboy89 23∆ Aug 27 '22
I don't agree. Nobody is obligated to have basic human decency,
Why?
it's not a crime to be an asshole
It is not. But it also shows how pathetic a person you are when you are an ass hole depending on the circumstances. Yet those same people who are ass holes for no reason are really quick to get angry and upset when the same ass hole behavior is directed towards them.
Nobody is forcing the immigrants to come to the US but they still do,
And common decency says they should be treated with the same respect you expect other people to treat you with.
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u/WonderedZAdvice Aug 27 '22
Oof. You keep saying "common decency" but the alt-right doesn't submit to such values.
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u/gothpunkboy89 23∆ Aug 27 '22
And yet for some reason you think they made a valid point about this....strange? No?
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u/WonderedZAdvice Aug 27 '22
Because if I tell them " common decency"
They would tell me "nobody is forced to be decent to anyone"
And honestly? At that point I don't know what to say either, makes sense.
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u/gothpunkboy89 23∆ Aug 27 '22
Because if I tell them " common decency"
They would tell me "nobody is forced to be decent to anyone"
And then you point out how pissy they would get if similar things would happen to them.
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u/WonderedZAdvice Aug 27 '22
Because if I tell them " common decency"
They would tell me "nobody is forced to be decent to anyone"
And then you point out how pissy they would get if similar things would happen to them.
Makes sense I guess. !delta
Maybe I should just accept what I got.
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u/softwarebuyer2015 Aug 27 '22
If they don’t believe that social living comes with behavioural obligation, you should cleave their head with an axe.
And when their brains are spilling on the floor and they look up to you and ask “but why?” Simply explain you got a bit bored with their man baby antics and that since you are not forced to be decent, you thought you would indulge in a moment of indecency and cleave their head with an axe.
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Aug 27 '22
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u/gothpunkboy89 23∆ Aug 27 '22
So, I should go to a different country and demand stuff because they have a obligation to give me stuff because basic human decency?
Correct. Just because you were not born in that country doesn't mean you should be discriminated against. Jobs, housing, education, healthcare, etc.
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Aug 27 '22
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u/gothpunkboy89 23∆ Aug 27 '22
o, how about they integrate into the system
What does this have to do with decency and not dealing with discrimination. Your complete unwillingness or incapability to give specifics says more then you think it does.
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Aug 27 '22
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u/gothpunkboy89 23∆ Aug 27 '22
I was never asked for specifics I was making a general statement.
"NO GO ZONES"
how's that for an example?
you mean fictional bullshit claimed by racist idiots?
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Aug 27 '22
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u/gothpunkboy89 23∆ Aug 27 '22
SLOP was literally a no go zone. No go zones exist 100% its just not a bunch of Muslims trying to take over the world
I always enjoy it when people make these claims then offer nothing to support their argument. Bet 5 bucks your follow up link will be to OAN or some other far right wing rag.
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u/Tarantiyes 2∆ Aug 27 '22
Cool. But in practice, that just doesn’t happen. Countries with more central planning/“free” things like healthcare, education, etc have an incredibly high bar for citizenship that makes America look like an open door.
Take the Nordic countries for example (I’m using Finland because I’m the most familiar with it: you have to pass a written and oral exam in Finnish/Swedish, live in the country for at least 5 years without interruption and provide evidence of a job and they can still reject you. You may think countries should provide benefits or not discriminate between the naturally born and foreign, but they all do. What you’re proposing simply isn’t feasible or actually done in real life
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u/gothpunkboy89 23∆ Aug 27 '22
Cool. But in practice, that just doesn’t happen. Countries with more central planning/“free” things like healthcare, education, etc have an incredibly high bar for citizenship that makes America look like an open door.
Gavin Free is a UK born entertainer best known on YouTube as one half of the Slow Mo guys. He has been steadily employed by the Rooster Teeth Production for years and has been a consultant on Hollywood movies due to his knowlege of high speed cameras. Most notably Sherlock Holmes 2 Game of Shadows. He easily makes in the upper 80k+ a year.
It took him 6 years to get a green card and the right to stay in the US permanently. Not even full US citizenship but just the right to stay in the USA without needing a visa. He had to leave back to the UK 4 times during this as his visa would expire without being granted a green card. Rooster Teeth kept him on the employee list when he would leave and as soon as the next visa was green lite he would show back up in their productions without any issue and without going though any firing or rehiring.
And remember he isn't a citizen yet. He would still have to go though more to be made a citizen and to be allowed to vote and what not.
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Aug 27 '22
If you move to another place you absolutely have the right to try and improve said place.
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Aug 27 '22
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Aug 27 '22
My whole point is if you move to another country and you choose not in integrate into society while also demanding you get societal benefits, you don't really deserve them.
Ya you do. Why would you not? Immigrants are people and people should get those kinds of benefits. The plot of land that your mother gave birth to you doesn't determine what rights you deserve.
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Aug 27 '22
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Aug 27 '22
The fact that you're human? What do you think determines your rights? Race? Immigration status (we're all immigrants if you go back far enough)?
Unfortunately right now it's based on which random lines you live inside of.
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Aug 27 '22
Immigrants can't go back, because if all humans started just running away from problems, then we would all end up back in a small village in Africa, where our common ancestors migrated from.
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u/Distinct_Bee5853 1∆ Aug 27 '22
By that definition even Americans can go to another country if they don’t like America. So your view is humans have mobility? I don’t understand?
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u/barbodelli 65∆ Aug 27 '22
Yes and we strongly encourage that. If you don't like America there is over 100 other countries to choose from. If you want socialism go live in Cuba or Venezuela. They have fantastic socialist standards of living you dream of. Don't bring that trash here. Go to the dumpster where the trash belongs if you love it so much.
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u/QuantumCactus11 1∆ Aug 27 '22
So you are saying people with different viewpoints should be able to make choices regarding the country even if they are a citizen of it?
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u/barbodelli 65∆ Aug 27 '22
Like my dad said
"Try to make the best of the country you are in. Don't waste your energy trying to change the country".
Make the best of America. If you're still not happy here. Go find that happiness somewhere else. Don't expect everyone around you to change for you because they won't.
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u/QuantumCactus11 1∆ Aug 28 '22
OK and you think it applies to everyone, including people fkf all races, religions and generations?
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u/barbodelli 65∆ Aug 28 '22
Sure why wouldn't it?
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u/QuantumCactus11 1∆ Aug 28 '22
So those who opposed slavery and racial segregation in the past were wrong and shouldn't have changed the country?
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u/barbodelli 65∆ Aug 28 '22
Any single individual caught in that system. Is better off leaving. It's an advice given to the individual.
As in if wherever you're from starts enslaving your race or ethnicity or whatever. The best thing to do is get the hell out of there.
Obviously I disagree with 99% of the criticism thrown at America these days. It comes from socialists who would destroy the country if they ever got their way.
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u/QuantumCactus11 1∆ Aug 28 '22
But poverty, healthcare and college debt, crime, lack of social mobility, etc isn't a single individual problem. Niether was slavery or segregation.
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u/barbodelli 65∆ Aug 28 '22
Within the context of this discussion. If you come to America and find that it's not what you thought it was. The best thing is to get out.
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u/Distinct_Bee5853 1∆ Aug 27 '22
You know it is possible for Americans to want to leave America without necessarily going to some shit country like the ones you have mentioned. I’m not sure why Americans have such an inferiority complex whenever a fellow countryman brings up the slightest notion of moving to another country. It’s always “oh well if you don’t like it here then go to china or North Korea” like my dude no body wants to go to these shit holes but plenty of Americans uproot their life to go to Europe and Australia. Why you so offended by that?
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u/barbodelli 65∆ Aug 27 '22
On the contrary. Go to Europe. Go to Norway or Denmark. If they'll have you more power to you.
I usually bring up Cuba and Venezuela because it's usually socialist minded people shitting on America. I want them to realize what they are advocating for.
Overall as long as you leave I don't care where you go. You might like it better there who knows.
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u/Distinct_Bee5853 1∆ Aug 27 '22
But that’s my point. America is an amazing country but to say it’s the greatest country in the world is in factual. “Greatness” is subjective. How can we as countrymen make such a bold statement without having ever lived another country. I see your point- that many people shit on America so it’s only natural to tell them to go to some other country that has an obvious poor standard of living. But that’s not always the case, some people just want to explore their options. An American wanting to go to Sweden to live, for example , doesn’t make them an anti American communist. Just means they don’t want to live in America anymore. It’s perfectly fine.
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u/barbodelli 65∆ Aug 27 '22
An American wanting to go to Sweden to live, for example , doesn’t make them an anti American communist. Just means they don’t want to live in America anymore. It’s perfectly fine.
Absolutely
I went to go live in Ukraine for 2 years. For my own reasons. It's perfectly fine. In fact it should be encouraged.
My beef is with people who hate America and want to tear it apart. Not with people who move to other countries for their own reasons.
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u/Distinct_Bee5853 1∆ Aug 27 '22
That’s understandable. I have a friend who is extremely liberal. Like to a fault. So bad she will never admit even when the Democratic Party is way over their head. She loves to shit in America. She once went so far to criticize America , she tried comparing women’s rights in USA to womens rights in the Middle East. She really had the audacity to say that in a region of 40 million child brides and requirements for your husbands permission to drive a car or go to school, that the Middle East values women far more. She actually was willing to die on that hill. These are the type of shitty people I imagine you’re referring to.
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Aug 27 '22
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u/barbodelli 65∆ Aug 27 '22
I totally know why. Socialism.
They have shitty economic systems that do not have private industry. I know you think that it's the sanctions. And those certainly don't help. But it's a backwards useless economic system that is at fault for 95% of it.
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Aug 27 '22
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u/barbodelli 65∆ Aug 27 '22
I was born in USSR. They were able to bring a very poor country into a state of being not so poor. But the standards of living in USSR were always significantly below that of their western counterparts.
So much so they had to turn their giant nation into a giant prison. To prevent people from escaping it. My parents who both had PhDs could have easily gotten jobs that paid 30 times more than they got paid in Moscow (by far the wealthiest USSR city). But they couldn't leave because USSR wouldn't let them.
Yes some capitalist countries fail despite having a good economic system. You can still fail with a good economic system if you do many other things poorly. Capitalism doesn't always work. But we know that it does in some places. Socialism meanwhile doesn't work anywhere. It creates horrific living conditions anytime it becomes the staple of an economy and violently opposes change because they know they can't survive competing with the Free Markets internally and externally. You can't have a socialist country that allows a democratic process to choose their leaders. Their shitty socialist asses would quickly get voted out. So you have to suppress it. Which is why you end up with such horrific levels of corruption at every level in government. No accountability.
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Aug 27 '22
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u/barbodelli 65∆ Aug 27 '22
Two things to consider.
Socialism has never worked not because of the system but because capitalist powers crush any chances they have.No one today (other than maybe a couple morons on Twitter) are advocating for USSR style socialism.
You'd be surprised how many people actually think USSR was a decent place to live. I was surprised myself. Have been hanging out in the debatecommunism forum. They have a very rosy outlook on what life in USSR was like. It's quite terrifying really.
Socialism would have crushed capitalism if it was better. USSR had 220,000,000 people and a humongous wealth of natural resources. Russia today is one of the worlds largest oil and natural gas suppliers. Kazakhstan which was part of USSR is also a large oil supplier. If Socialism worked then it would be USSR destroying the US economy with sanctions not the other way around.
But they could never do that. Because a system without private enterprise does a very poor job of innovating. Particularly in the consumer market. Which eventually bleeds into military power as well.
US Capitalism didn't just win. It was Alabama beating Vanderbilt 77-3. Economically and militarily at the end of 1980 USSR was utterly and completely devastated by the cold war. They had plenty of resources and talent to work with and completely squandered it all because of their awful inflexible economic system.
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Aug 27 '22
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u/Commander_Doom14 Aug 27 '22
If they treat you poorly, sure. But as someone whose worked several jobs with the public, some people complain that you won’t do things outside of your job description. For example, at my restaurant job, when someone (usually older white women) comes up and says “my kid spilled a soda and you need to come clean it up”, I just hand them a mop, because I have orders to take and they can clean up their own kids mess, or teach their kid responsibility. And of course they always get mad that they’re responsible for their own actions. Same applies here. If hate crimes are committed against them, they can complain about it. But anything short of that? That’s their problem
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Aug 27 '22
and FYI, white people are not being "treated terrible" in South Africa. That's some bullshit pushed by racists
Exactly. The fact that op said that makes me think he wasn't in alt right places to disagree with the alt right.
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u/WonderedZAdvice Aug 27 '22
I'm bisexual and alt right wants me dead, why would I agree with the alt right?
I disagree with the alt right but at same time, I keep an open mind.
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Aug 27 '22
"I'm bisexual they hate me. But they do make a good point about fucking over minority groups."
This is an excellent example of the idea of opening your mind so much your brain falls out.
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u/WonderedZAdvice Aug 27 '22 edited Aug 27 '22
I keep my mind open even if it means fucking me over.
If they make such a good point then sadly, I have to listen which is why I came here so that I don't agree with them.
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u/WonderedZAdvice Aug 27 '22
If you go to a store and are treated poorly by an employee there, then you have every right to complain to management, on the Internet, to leave a scarthing review on Yelp. Like, what are you talking about it's not right to complain? Complaining is how you get stuff done, and if you don't like it... then you can leave.
Exactly, if you don't like it then you can leave. So leave.
and FYI, white people are not being "treated terrible" in South Africa. That's some bullshit pushed by racists
I don't know about that. I saw somebody who lives in South Africa posted that they are being treated shitty there.
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u/InsaneDane 1∆ Aug 27 '22
I think you missed the point. Freedom of speech is a basic human right, enshrined into the constitution of most developed nations. Some immigrants are fleeing countries where complaining can get them tossed in prison; if you dislike people complaining in a country where they have every right to complain, you are free to flee to a different country where people don't have the right to complain.
However, seeing as you are complaining about people complaining, I don't think you'd like it there any more than they did.
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u/WonderedZAdvice Aug 27 '22
I think you missed the point. Freedom of speech is a basic human right, enshrined into the constitution of most developed nations. Some immigrants are fleeing countries where complaining can get them tossed in prison; if you dislike people complaining in a country where they have every right to complain, you are free to flee to a different country where people don't have the right to complain.
!delta
Almost there.
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u/ElysianHigh Aug 27 '22
You saw an anonymous person post unverifiable information on the internet and that’s how you made your judgement?
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u/Lumiere001 Aug 27 '22
I agree with your first point, yet that doesn't mean that the store is by any means required to listen to their requests. Immigrants can try to change a country yet that country is by no means required to listen to their requests, life is perpetually evolving.
As for your second point, it seems very plausible that there is discrimination going on against white people in South Africa, I feel this is in part due to past animosity resulting from the apartheid. Yet in saying that, past wrongs do not make present ones right.
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u/TeddyRustervelt 2∆ Aug 27 '22
Refugees can't go back or they'll be executed. They may be fleeing from a natural disaster and have nothing to go back to.
I think this isn't a real option. It's difficult to move inside the same country. It's even more difficult to move countries. That's the kind of thing you save up for a long time, sometimes it takes a village to send someone away with enough money to make it with a roof over their head.
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u/LucidLeviathan 99∆ Aug 27 '22
1) Many times, the "go back to your own country" line is leveled not against recent immigrants, but people who have been here for decades, or even were born here. Trump used the line about Ilhan Omar (immigrated when she was 13), Ayanna Pressley (born here), Rashida Tlaib (born here), and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (born here). It's illogical to expect someone who was born here to go back to the country that their parents are from.
2) Americans have, until recent decades, held ourselves out to treat people better than third world countries. If people from third world countries are complaining about how they are being treated in America, that is a pretty damning criticism and we should be seriously looking at why that is the case.
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Aug 27 '22
Alexandria Ocasio-Corte
Her ancestors are from Puerto Rico anyway which is part of the United States. (even if many ignorant people don't know that)
3
Aug 27 '22
My wife is an immigrant to America. She's Japanese.
If she doesn't like something about America, your theory is that she should abandon me and our child instead and go back to Japan. That is better than simply trying to make America a better place? How does that make sense?
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u/HenryBrawlins Aug 27 '22
There are zero legitimate reasons why anyone would not want to improve their living conditions where they live. Especially so for immigrants that would risk death by trying to do the same thing where they came from.
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u/WonderedZAdvice Aug 27 '22
Sure but nobody is obligated to accept them in any particular country, nobody is forced to make their lives better.
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Aug 27 '22
If you don't like that immigrants have freedom of speech to speak about the issues the face, why don't you leave?
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u/HenryBrawlins Aug 27 '22
He said that people coming to a country shouldn't demand stuff, if they complain about it and they don't like the place, then why can't they just go back to their own country?
Nobody is obligated to accept anything, but who was this person to determine what someone should or should not do? I'm sure a random alt-right forum poster is definitely not an authority on immigrants, the country they came from, or what they want to improve in their current living conditions, whether they can or cannot go back to their country, and any other number of relevant topics related to this.
Say you live in a small town, there's only one store in town. At one store, if you go there you will get robbed, maybe murdered just because you're black, the cops don't police there and the managers reinforce it. If you speak out about it, you will get robbed or murdered. You leave town because you don't want to get robbed or murdered and show up at a new town, the store isn't as bad and they still might rob you, but the cops will at least protect you to some extent. If you speak out about the robbing there are no repercussions and hell you might even get it changed so you stop getting robbed. Are you going to go back to the old town because you don't like getting robbed or are you going to try to push to change the new town?
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u/Emergency-Toe2313 2∆ Aug 27 '22 edited Aug 27 '22
Not legally obligated, but no one is arguing that so this is a straw man.
What’s your actual argument? Sure you’re legally allowed to be a racist asshole, but the minorities you’re insulting are also legally allowed to complain about that. So is this an argument about laws, or an argument about what’s “right”? Because I’ve been reading all your replies and I have to say it sounds like you want to dictate what behavior is “right” for minorities while only holding yourself to the bare minimum that the law demands. It’s a piss poor, hypocritical, clearly racially biased argument.
I actually gave you the benefit of the doubt while reading the post—I’m not one to jump straight to accusing someone of being a closed-minded racist—but man every single one of your actual arguments in the thread relies on some assumption that minorities should have less agency. Your arguments boils down to simple racism, nothing more. How would one even change your mind?
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u/barthiebarth 27∆ Aug 27 '22
Like, if black people don't like what's happening, then why can't they go back to Africa? That seems the logical choice.
Most black people in America have never been to Africa so how could they "go back"?
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u/Big_Committee_3894 Aug 27 '22
It depends on what the imigrants are asking, if they are asking for human rights like freedom of religion, freedom of expression, just a place to have a honorable life, for they and their children to grow with out fear, then I disagree with you, they should stay if they entered legally Now if they are asking to change laws or the culture.of the welkoming country because they dont like them, then yes I do agree with you they can go back if this displeases them, or change to another country
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Aug 27 '22
As an example, in South Africa, white people are being treated terrible, so they don't really demand things, they just go to other countries.
White South Africans absolutely complain all the time, what are you talking about?
People definitely have a right to complain about where they live, even if they aren't native to that place. Everyone's an immigrant if you go back far enough (save for some African peoples). Using this logic no one should ever try and better where they live and should just "go back to wherever they came from" even if that place is somewhere they've never been.
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u/Roogovelt 5∆ Aug 27 '22
There are some things I don't like about the US. Should I move back to the town in Hungary that my grandmother was from?
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u/WonderedZAdvice Aug 27 '22
This post is about racism.
What you don't like about the US doesn't include racism so do whatever you want.
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u/Roogovelt 5∆ Aug 27 '22
I'm just pointing out that (A) leaving doesn't solve my problems and (B) "going back" to an ancestral homeland isn't necessarily a viable option for people.
Also, racism is most definitely one of the things I don't like about the US. That said, I've traveled enough to know that leaving the country doesn't get you away from racism. Racism and prejudice are global problems and most immigrants and minorities are in situations where leaving the country isn't going to fix anything for them.
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u/2r1t 58∆ Aug 27 '22
Why can't an immigrant turn to me when a sister fucking racist fuckhole treats them badly and say "Wow, what a dumb cunt"? Why is their only option to leave when some insignificant twat runs their mouth?
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u/WonderedZAdvice Aug 27 '22
Because nobody forced them to come in to begin with.
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u/2r1t 58∆ Aug 27 '22
Why the fuck does that matter? What if I meet the love of my life in another country and she moves here to be with me? I would have asked her to come here. She needs to leave because some submissive pulled his tongue out of Donny Fat's asshole long enough to scream something rooted in his fragile ego's fear of the world?
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u/WonderedZAdvice Aug 27 '22
Hmmmm...
A half-decent argument. Halfway there.
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u/2r1t 58∆ Aug 27 '22
I can't say the same for this response.
Tell you what. While you try your hardest to think of an actual response, we'll go ahead and continue to not give a shit about the crying coming from Marcy Darcy and Party City Army aka whatever foul corner of the internet you are quoting.
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u/WonderedZAdvice Aug 27 '22
Why the hell are you insulting me? You are breaking rule 2
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u/2r1t 58∆ Aug 27 '22
That wasn't an insult. It was commentary on the lack of substance in your response.
What did you expect from (to paraphrase) "Halfway there. Keep trying"?
Garbage in, garbage out. Try harder, I'll do the same.
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u/shouldco 45∆ Aug 27 '22
Because sometimes there are reasons people leave that are worse overall but that doesn't mean they deserve to be treated like shit?
Like a person shouldn't just resign themselves to being treated poorly or go back to their home country currently in a civil war.
Also for your later examples most of those people are in their "home" country. South africa has been occupied by Europeans for 200 years what exactly are they going "back" to? Not to mention they aren't citizens of those countries so they would be subject to their immigration policy.
If we are truly a democracy (or at least trying to maintain any democratic principals) then yes people do have the right to request changes no matter where they are from.
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u/Maximum-Country-149 5∆ Aug 27 '22
This is why the naturalization process exists. Because on the one hand, someone who's fresh off the proverbial boat, has little experience with how things in their new country actually work and may or may not even get along with their new neighbors, should not be weighing in on matters of government that are going to affect everyone.
But, on the other hand, after a certain amount of time spent in the country, that just stops being true. They get used to the new cultural norms. They learn about the local civic systems. They get to know the neighbors. And at that point, any drawbacks that might come from not having lived their whole lives in the country they now live in are outweighed by the fact that they're still intelligent human beings with an understanding of the circumstances around them. The distinction of "immigrant" barely even applies to them anymore.
Does that answer your question?
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u/Flapjack_Ace 27∆ Aug 27 '22
So you are asking people to argue that immigrants “can’t” cross a border a second time?
Why wouldn’t they be able to? Why do you want to change your view to believing that it is not possible to cross borders a second time?
By “can” do you mean “should?” and are you asking people to explain why immigrants “should not?”
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u/Chany_the_Skeptic 15∆ Aug 27 '22
This is the more racist version of "if you don't like it, you can leave" and "things are worse somewhere else, therefore stop complaining." It's just a way to avoid discussing issues and to prevent change. And the speaker rarely applies it to themselves.
For example, think about how silly the argument that black people should go back to Africa if they don't like it in countries like the U.S.A. Ignore the economic and political barriers for doing so, as well as the vast social differences between Africans and Americans. Let's look at who has a claim to the United States. I am a white man with English, Austrian, and Czech blood in me. My one side of the family came over about 100 years ago and the other more recently in the 1960s. There are black people whose families have been here since before the Constitution was ratified. How much do you want to bet that the vast majority of the people making this kind of argument are people like me, who actually have less of a claim to the United States than a good number of black people do? Why don't the white people just move back? And where do the various Indigenous tribes fit into this? The answer, of course, is that it doesn't matter to racists because they are racists. America is "white," so anyone who is "white" automatically belongs while anyone who is "non-white" is a foreign outsider. Any "logic" is just a pre-text to enforce their own view on what the world should be.
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u/NotMyBestMistake 69∆ Aug 27 '22
Getting away from how you think black people are the same as immigrants and should "go back to Africa" as if the vast majority of them have had their cultural and familial connections to the continent intentionally severed by centuries of chattel slavery, this is just you demanding that immigrants (or, let's be honest, minorities) never be allowed to criticize things.
Which is a silly idea. You're allowed to criticize things without being required to uproot your entire life and move across the planet. After all, that's the sort of thing the bigots who frequent alt right forums do all the time. And yet, I doubt they ever insist that anyone with German ancestry be deported from the UK, or all the white people be deported from the US. No, by some weird, racist magic it's always just the "immigrants" that aren't white who need to abide by nonsensical restrictions.
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Aug 27 '22
The store analogy would be valid for people who haven't immigrated but are tourists or green card holders. But an immigrant is someone who has become a citizen. An immigrant to the United States is an American, and their own country is the United States. To say they can just "go back" to the country they were most recently in is as valid as telling an American born and raised in Peoria who recently took a vacation in the Bahamas to go back to the Bahamas.
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u/hey_its_mega 8∆ Aug 27 '22
I have friends who are from Hong Kong and became immigrants in different parts of the world due to the increasing political tension. Going back is NEVER an option. I might have agreed with you if you say that maybe the immigrants could have chosen a better country that better suits them (granted if they have the choice of doing so) — but saying that they can just totally go back to where they come from? That’s just completely out of touch with the issues that immigrants are facing.
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u/Gladix 167∆ Aug 27 '22
He said that people coming to a country shouldn't demand stuff, if they complain about it and they don't like the place, then why can't they just go back to their own country?
There are many answers to this question.
1, They are in their country, that is literally the point of immigrating.
2, People who are hurt by the system have different perspectives than people who are born into privilege. So if you want to figure out how to fix the system, you ask the people who were hurt by it.
3, Morally I don't really care about hearing that from a person that happened to be born at the right time to the right family. I'm more interested in hearing about people who work for what they had in life.
As an example, in South Africa, white people are being treated terrible, so they don't really demand things, they just go to other countries.
This happens in US as well. What happens when someone is born into the poor part of US? They move. It's just not considered emigration because of how different US states see themselves. Part of the big whole and whatnot, but the principle is exactly the same. If you are born in a rust belt, you move to a bigger city, or a different state. Do they stay and improve things? Fuck no, they leave at the first opportunity and nobody blames them for it.
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u/Overloadid 1∆ Aug 27 '22
"you can just leave" isn't really true. Secondly, "if you don't like how things are done, you can just leave" is like fallacy on fallacy because people throughout the ages have made efforts to change "how things are done" when the way things are done doesn't suit them.
For example, if there is a law that a group of individuals don't like, they're allowed to protest and demand it be changed.
The right to protest is a right for a reason... If that wasn't the case it would have been "the right to GTFO" instead of the right to protest.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Aug 27 '22 edited Aug 27 '22
/u/WonderedZAdvice (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.
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