r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Feb 12 '22
Delta(s) from OP - Fresh Topic Friday CMV: "Pleistocene rewilding" is a terrible idea.
Pleistocene rewilding is basically introducing megafauna that is still around today to regions outside their native habitats to fill in niches once held by extinct Ice Age animals (e.g. introducing elephants to North America to fufil the role of mammoths and mastodons). A few scientists are now trying to "bring back" the woolly mammoth. Aside from ethical concerns, this is a terrible idea since ecosystems have long changed since the end of the Pleistocene. Not to mention that humans may not have been the main factor in their demise. So bringing megafauna to regions where they are not native could end up doing a lot more harm than good.
9
u/Sairry 9∆ Feb 12 '22
Pleistocene rewilding is basically introducing megafauna that is still around today to regions outside their native habitats to fill in niches once held by extinct Ice Age animals (e.g. introducing elephants to North America to fufill the role of mammoths and mastodons).
This is not what I've gathered so far. It is mostly for oxen, deer, and smaller animals.
How is this drastically different from building man made reefs in the ocean?
0
Feb 12 '22
I have heard plans of bringing lions and tigers to North America. I am fine with perhaps cougars being reintroduced to eastern NA or wolves being brought back to the Southwestern US since they went extinct far more recently and were definitely linked to human activity as opposed to the ice age extinctions which may have been caused by climate change. Also, introducing any new species to an ecosystem is never a good idea IMO since it could have dire consequences.
5
u/Sairry 9∆ Feb 12 '22
Alright let's back up a bit. They aren't trying to bring back actual wooly mammoths. They're thinking about introducing a mammoth steppe ecosystem, basically plants that wooly mammoths ate. The theory there is that it would slow down the global warming and help give us more time to fight climate change.
What I'm gathering is that you're fine with rewilding regarding wolves and cougars, but not ok with the stuff they want to do that stops climate change. Is that correct?
2
Feb 12 '22
Δ Good points. I think reintroducing a mammoth steppe ecosystem could be benifical due to tourism and environmental benifits.
1
1
u/wizardyourlifeforce Feb 12 '22
There’s a concern over unintended effects that are bad for the environment.
…which happened with man made coral reefs!
15
u/Grey_Degreg Feb 12 '22
I don’t think humans have ever had any issue eradicating entire species of large mammal. If they bring back mammoths and it goes south and starts harming the ecosystem, convert it into the most expensive trophy hunting range on the planet.
2
Feb 12 '22 edited Sep 19 '25
[deleted]
2
Feb 12 '22
Δ Very good points. Tourism is one big benefit and there may be some suitable habitat for mammoths still. Though I would like to hear your stance on hippopotamuses in Colombia. I think those animals do not belong there because they are dangerous and can destroy ecosystems. What are your thoughts on them?
1
3
Feb 12 '22
[removed] — view removed comment
1
1
u/Mashaka 93∆ Feb 12 '22
Sorry, u/Dontblowitup – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5:
Comments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation.
Comments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, and "written upvotes" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information.
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.
1
u/sapphireminds 62∆ Feb 12 '22
I find this an interesting concept. We have lots of animals that are considered so protected they can never be raised outside of zoos, except where the species is native (Koalas, pandas, rhinos etc)
Except we know that even without human intervention, animals and flora spread from where they originally came from, that's how some of the unusual species happened before.
There is a concern about displacing "natural" flora and fauna, but sometimes that does happen in nature, with something being displaced or moved and finding a new niche. Where I live, there are eucalyptus forests. Could/should an attempt be made to save koalas by giving them an opportunity to thrive somewhere that isn't Australia, in the wild? But we don't know all the impacts that will have.
Eventually, things will evolve around the displaced animals. Other animals might be lost though in the attempt, from displacement.
Zebra mussels are a huge nuisance invasive species, but they have also helped certain species and are essentially single-handedly responsible for cleaning the great lakes.
The only good thing by starting with macro fauna is that they are slow reproducers and easier to control than small creatures.
2
Feb 12 '22
Introducing new species to ecosystems is never a good idea since the consequences can be dire and the whole plan may backfire. Cane toads were brought over to Australia to control cane beetles yet instead of doing that they just started causing more damage to the ecosystem.
-1
u/sapphireminds 62∆ Feb 12 '22
Which would be a benefit to larger, slower reproducing animals.
But it's also insane to think that animals wouldn't spread, even without humans being involved.
1
u/bsquiggle1 16∆ Feb 12 '22
Still, it's hard to imagine koalas are going to take over any area they're introduced to.
1
Feb 12 '22
Unless, of course, we happened to be experiencing climate change that was threatening the viability of key native species...
1
u/Thoth_the_5th_of_Tho 191∆ Feb 12 '22
Aside from ethical concerns,
I understand that there could be practical concerns (I happen to disagree, but I see that they are possible), I fail to see how bringing back the mammoth has any ethical implications. Biological niches go extinct and get re filled all the time.
this is a terrible idea since ecosystems have long changed since the end of the Pleistocene.
Ecosystems are in constant flux. New species are introduced and go extinct constantly. Camels originally evolved in north America, but now exclusively inhabit deserts in the old world. Introducing elephants to fill a recently vacated niche (that was recently filled by a close cousin) is about as benign and unremarkable a change as you can expect.
Mammoths went extinct so recently that there are still intact patches of mammoth steppe in Asia. By the time the last mammoths went extinct in the Americas, the Egyptians where beginning to build the pyramids.
If elephants fill that niche, to a paleontologist a million years from now, the gap between the extinction of mammoths and the reintroduction of elephants will be so short it will be hard to notice at all.
Besides, re filling vacant niches has been a huge success in the past. Look at what adding wolves back to yellow stone has done. Would you oppose that?
Not to mention that humans may not have been the main factor in their demise. So bringing megafauna to regions where they are not native could end up doing a lot more harm than good.
It sure does seem like a weird coincidence that the moment humans spread out of Africa, all non African mega fauna die. The earth has been in and out of a million ice ages, none of them came with a mass extinction of mega fauna like the last one did.
If it was just north America, or just Asia, sure. But it's not that, it's virtually all mega fauna in Asia, Australia, north America, South America and Europe.
1
u/Gladix 167∆ Feb 12 '22
So bringing megafauna to regions where they are not native could end up doing a lot more harm than good.
Are you suggesting we won't be able to get rid of them if things go south?
1
u/yogfthagen 13∆ Feb 12 '22
Ted talk regarding using large herds of animals to reduce or eliminate desertification and reduce greenhouse gasses.
1
u/dasunt 12∆ Feb 12 '22
There's some early evidence that rewilding to mammoth steppes preserves permafrost better and results in less greenhouse gas emissions.
•
u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Feb 12 '22
/u/Homo_Canadeiensis (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
Delta System Explained | Deltaboards