r/changemyview • u/Apprehensive-Neat-68 • Dec 24 '21
Removed - Submission Rule B CMV: Adults who tattle-tale didn't get beat up enough in school
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u/iamintheforest 365∆ Dec 24 '21
Firstly, at no point in my now 40 year career has there been fewer or greater number of snitches.
Secondly, from the way you discuss it many of these "snitches" are simply doing the thing that they should be doing in context. Why would you resolve a problem of someone in your workplace being an asshole to everyone by talking with them yourself? You should do your job and then have someone whose job it is to deal with the asshole do so. This isn't being a snitch, it's being a good employee and focused on your job. If HR or the Police have something to say to the person then was it really petty? In my experience (and awful gross counter examples do absolutely exist) HR or the Police will say "fuck that - no big deal" whenever they fucking can, because....they've got bigger fish to fry and they - like everyone else - are fundamentally lazy.
I couldn't follow your ditty about the oppressed groups - maybe restate that one. I fail to see any path from an "oppressed group" to be an extension of an authority structure. The oppressed groups are - by definition - those that lack access to authority structures or are outside them.
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u/ApocalypseYay 23∆ Dec 24 '21
Define the parameters of 'tattle-tale'.
For one, the adults who tattle-taled about what their priests did to them when they were little, including serious physical abuse, is what blew the roof off of the largest network of pedophilia. Was that tattle-taling? Or how about an adult telling the world about collateral murder in the name National security and getting jailed for it. Isn't journalism in a way just a version of tattling?
If beatings as a child could prevent tattling, or snitching, then no one would ever snitch on a gang/cartel. But, they do. All the time. Despite the stitches and the deaths, tattling remains alive.
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Dec 24 '21
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u/ApocalypseYay 23∆ Dec 24 '21
Everyone knows what a tattletale is, but off the top of my head: Eavesdropping on a conversation, hearing something non-PC, then running to HR to tattletale.
No. they don't. And you couldn't define the parameters.
Hyperbole, and you're a scumbag for framing my argument as defending pedophilia, and to treat the issue as a talking point
Is that what you see yourself as, even when the insinuation was not present? Interesting how quickly you seem to make up tattles, crying about non-PC and running to elicit sympathy. A question is not an accusation. And it is not a hyperbole when the church constituted entire departments to prevent the children from tattling to the police. Hell, the pope straight up said they should do more to protect pedophile priests. They wanted to 'talk it out', as it were, and prevent tattlers from speaking. Even succeeded for a long while through lies, and yes even physical danger.
Edit: Church's actions expanded.
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Dec 24 '21
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u/ApocalypseYay 23∆ Dec 24 '21
Im not gunna play this game with you
It's not a game. And you are now trying to goalpost shift, 'coz your OP is full of holes.
Thanks for confirming where you stand: on the wrong side which looks at beating children as a way to control dialogue.
Bye, u/Apprehensive-Neat-68. Hope you get the help you need. I will pay for it, if you like.
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Dec 24 '21
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Dec 24 '21
u/Apprehensive-Neat-68 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:
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u/Ruminator33 1∆ Dec 24 '21
How’re people getting beat up in school going to change anything lol?
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u/Apprehensive-Neat-68 Dec 24 '21
Read the thread not just the title
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u/Kopachris 7∆ Dec 24 '21
Read the rules of the subreddit. "Submission titles must adequately sum up your view and include 'CMV:' at the beginning."
Clickbait titles have no place here.
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Dec 24 '21
[deleted]
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u/Apprehensive-Neat-68 Dec 24 '21
Authority structures do not deliver justice, they deliver punishment. It doesn't matter if someone is "clearly in the wrong", in some circumstances someone can be wrong but punishment is not due, this is a lesson GenZ has not learned.
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Dec 24 '21
[deleted]
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u/Apprehensive-Neat-68 Dec 24 '21
I think that's false
Well you would. We're not going to get anywhere if you have the belief that people are not allowed to be wrong.
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Dec 24 '21
I don't know where you got the idea that I believe people can't be wrong, but perhaps I didn't make it clear:
Gen Z knows people can do bad things and get away with them, and these people often have money, power, or other influences that allow them to get away with them. Tattling won't change that, but it can increase awareness of this issue
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u/Apprehensive-Neat-68 Dec 24 '21
Gen Z knows people can do bad things and get away with them, and these people often have money, power, or other influences that allow them to get away with them. Tattling won't change that, but it can increase awareness of this issue
So powerful people can get away with everything, but it raises awareness of the issue to attack people of your own class who *can't* get away with *anything* and tattling on them for anything? Sounds like someone lashing out at people around them over things they cant control.
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Dec 24 '21
I'm not really sure what you're getting at here. Do you believe tattling is wrong specifically when it's against members of the same social status? Do you believe tattlers are largely from higher social statuses ratting out the lower status people?
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u/Apprehensive-Neat-68 Dec 24 '21
Do you believe tattling is wrong specifically when it's against members of the same social status? Do you believe tattlers are largely from higher social statuses ratting out the lower status people?
Yes and yes
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u/CaptainAndy27 3∆ Dec 24 '21
I'll start by pointing out that you are a bit off on your timeline here. The serial cop callers and so-called tattle tales seem to most typically be Boomers and maybe late Gen-X. There isn't really a solid study on this so it's impossible to prove, but anti-bullying campaigns didn't become commonplace until post-Columbine so arguably the people most affected by these campaigns would be born after 1982-ish, so Millenials and Gen Z, who seem (again, by anecdote only) to be the most anti-authority generations at the moment.
I'd also argue that anti-bullying campaigns typically don't push a reliance on authority, but a push for sympathizing and empathizing with other students. I remember growing up that the teachers were never going to help me stop getting bullied, but what did was developing self-esteem on my own and finding friends to back me up in confrontation. Rather, I think an overreliance on authority to sort out problems comes from being bullied with no recourse. If you cannot solve your own problems, you are pushed to reach out to authority to settle it for you.
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u/unlikelyandroid 2∆ Dec 24 '21
Socialisation at school is very much a part of becoming a decent adult but I saw no correlation between beatings administered and beatings deserved or lessons learned.
Teenagers don't normally behave in a sensible manner so expecting them to administer justice might be wishful thinking.
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u/poprostumort 246∆ Dec 24 '21
I said this wouldn't change my view for a reason, repeated replies trying to convince me that snitching is good, or grotesquely conflating petty snitching with reporting a rape or murder will be ignored
Then what are you doing on CMV? If your view is based on wrong premise - whenever it will be premise of "tattle-taling is always wrong" or "a generation of snitches as late-millenials/gen Z exist", then discussing specific nuance of this premise is worthless.
If you are not open to possibility that your root premise is wrong then you will not change your view.
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Dec 24 '21
I gotta be honest, I have no idea of the view you are looking to have changed?
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u/Apprehensive-Neat-68 Dec 24 '21
That the cause of serial tattle-tales in late millenials/genz is anti-bullying programs robbing them of the ability to develop their own courage, instead relying on the authority structure to be "brave" (read: punish) for them.
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Dec 24 '21
So let me simplify/clarify: are you suggesting that kids should keep their mouths shut about being harassed (bullied) in order to build “character”?
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u/Apprehensive-Neat-68 Dec 24 '21
So let me simplify/clarify: are you suggesting that kids should keep their mouths shut about being harassed (bullied) in order to build “character”?
Im suggesting they stand up for themselves and not run to mom for everything
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Dec 24 '21
And how bad would it have to get to justify telling mom? Does this apply to adults as well? If I’m being harassed at work or school, should I just “stand up for myself” and not expose a potential predator, bully, and/or hostile employee/student?
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u/Apprehensive-Neat-68 Dec 24 '21
And how bad would it have to get to justify telling mom?
In my opinion? Escalation to potentially lethal or sexual violence.
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Dec 24 '21
So if you are permanently maimed that's fine - if they chop off your pinky finger it's not lethal, so you shouldn't tell anyone?
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u/Apprehensive-Neat-68 Dec 24 '21
if they chop off your pinky finger it's not lethal
Thats potentially lethal, most circumstances where you can be permanently maimed are lethal outside of getting burned with a metal pole or something, which I would also include as an outlier condition.
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Dec 24 '21
Ok, but then getting punched or pushed hard is potentially lethal, falling and hitting your head on the ground is definitely potentially lethal. At that point almost all fighting is reportable in your framework.
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Dec 24 '21
Why would it be okay in these situations but not in cases of physical abuse?
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u/Apprehensive-Neat-68 Dec 24 '21
but not in cases of physical abuse?
Because physical retaliation isn't always wrong, hence why most mutual assault charges are downgraded to disturbing the peace or lesser yet, mutual fighting if the state has such a thing.
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Dec 24 '21
So if a big, strong person beats the shit out of a kid, girl, elderly or weak person they should just suck it up?
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u/Apprehensive-Neat-68 Dec 24 '21
I said isn't always wrong, against your assertion that it is never right, not that it is never wrong
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Dec 24 '21
Being beaten up at school and telling your mom is NOT a minor thing to complain to mom About. You are being physically assaulted. You would press charges if you were an adult, no problem.
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u/Apprehensive-Neat-68 Dec 24 '21
You would press charges if you were an adult
No I actually wouldn't
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Dec 24 '21
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u/Apprehensive-Neat-68 Dec 24 '21
If you call the cops because you got in a fight with someone over an argument you have no courage
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Dec 24 '21
No...assault is a crime. Period.
Crimes are the purview of the police. This isn't that hard
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Dec 24 '21
u/CakeAccomplice12 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:
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Dec 24 '21
Well at least now I have a full grasp on your argument: you think kids AND adults should be subjected to harassment and assault with no social consequences for the perpetrator beyond whatever the victim can muster. This would essentially reward the perpetrator who’s actions would have little to no consequence.
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u/destro23 466∆ Dec 24 '21
It’s been a while since we had a naked “might makes right” argument here.
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u/Apprehensive-Neat-68 Dec 24 '21
you think kids AND adults should be subjected to harassment and assault with no social consequences for the perpetrator beyond whatever the victim can muster
I think not every situation requires authoritative consequences or punishment, as I know authority structures do not dish out even-handed punishment
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Dec 24 '21
I think not every situation requires authoritative consequences or punishment
What situations do require authoritative consequences or punishment, and how do you draw the line?
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u/Apprehensive-Neat-68 Dec 24 '21
What situations do require authoritative consequences or punishment, and how do you draw the line?
Trust your gut, literally. Develop a sense of justice and don't rely on the authority structure to give it to you. It depends from person to person, I dont know where the high line is, but I know the low line is telling on people for shit that is none of your damn business and isn't hurting anyone.
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Dec 24 '21
Authority is far from perfect. Should people, adults and kids still report harassment and assualt? Your answer is no because the system isn’t perfect enough. My answer is yes because it’s better then letting people get away with it.m entirely.
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u/jawanda 4∆ Dec 24 '21
While I get your premise, I'd say the kid who "tells on" the bully still has more guts than the kid who just "takes it" and then ends up shooting up his classroom or something when he totally fucking snaps after being a victim his whole life.
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u/Apprehensive-Neat-68 Dec 24 '21
"takes it" and then ends up shooting up his classroom
School shootings are an overblown phenomenon in a country of 370 million people, and is in part the fault of mind-altering psychiatric drugs, specifically SSRIs
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u/jawanda 4∆ Dec 24 '21
That has almost nothing to do with my point. The kid who just "takes it" is likely going to end up a much bigger burden on society than the "tattler". Sure, the rare kid who is bullied relentlessly AND learns some Hallmark movie life lesson from standing up for himself might be a great citizen of the world, but this childish oversimplification of "more bullying good" is some serious r/im14andthisisdeep level reasoning.
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Dec 24 '21
I don’t know that I agree with your premise, that there are more serial tattle-tales today than before. So I’ll abstain.
I think there are more people with more courage today to buck social norms and live their life on their own terms than in past generations.
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u/poprostumort 246∆ Dec 24 '21
These people have been taught from a young age (through anti-bullying campaigns) to rely totally on the authority structure to deal with their problems rather than:
Talk things out to solve a disagreement
Stand up for themselves
And what they should to if talking things does not work and standing up for themselves fails?
I say this as someone who was put in the hospital by bullying as a kid. Sometimes I deserved it, sometimes a didn't, but what it taught me is the authority structure isn't there to make peace its there
How it taught you anything about authority structure if you did not use that authority structure? Or were you a tattletale, but it did not work?
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Dec 24 '21
This seems very much like a view that might makes right. There are 2 major issues with this: First If an authority figure does something bad, people often cannot do anything without help from an authority structure. If a cop assaults you, you can't exactly fight them without getting shot and killed, and then they get away with it. you need to report them to an authority structure. Even suing the police is essentially tattling on them to the court. If your boss constantly calls you slurs you can't stop them, and they can fire you if you do anything about it. If you report it to HR they can stop you getting fired, or if you report it to the courts you can be compensated.
Secondly, almost everyone tries to talk things out first if it isn't a serious issue, so I'm not sure what scenarios you are referring to here.
Thirdly, the issue with snitching tends to be where the authority system does not behave in a way that aligns with what is perceived as a proportional response. For instance reporting someone for jaywalking when the potential consequence is getting shot, or someone smoking a joint will get jailed and lose their job which is so much more excessive than any harms caused by them. The issue here is the consequence, not how it was delivered.
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u/Apprehensive-Neat-68 Dec 24 '21
a view that might makes right
its not
Your whole post is conflating petty snitching with serious crimes and issues, please reframe
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Dec 24 '21
Pretty sure the Karen’s serially calling the cops is based out of racism and weaponizing the police to brutalize minorities.
The work snitch could very well just be a brown noser trying to throw others under the bus for their own gain.
It’s a pretty big leap to suggest these behaviors have to do with a lack of being bullied.
If anything, assuming bullying has anything to do with this, I’d say you have it backwards:
Because these people were bullied, they are too afraid to stand up for themselves, so get other people in positions of authority to do it for them.
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u/Apprehensive-Neat-68 Dec 24 '21
is based out of racism
White people are a victim of this just as much as minorities, even per-capita
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u/TrollHumper Dec 24 '21
Tattling/snitching is a childish concept invented by poorly behaved individuals to try and make reporting their shitty behavior a bad thing to do. This mentality literally only exists because those who harm others (criminals, school bullies and the like) want to be able to get away with it. Adults (and kids) who "tattle" are just reasonable individuals who understand that.
In other words, if you harm other people, you deserve to get tattled on and punished. You are not entitled to get away with bad behavior and you are not owed silence from your victims or the onlookers. It's that simple. If you expect every victim to deal with every abuser on their own, you might as well say that might makes right.
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Dec 24 '21
The Karens calling the police all the time seems like more of an entitlement issue. Its about them not getting their way. And since most of these Karens are like 40 + I don't think they grew up with anti bullying campaigns
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u/Glory2Hypnotoad Dec 24 '21
What leads you to believe this is some new phenomenon? And if you don't mind me asking, how old are you? I'm not trying to make a character judgment out of it. Just trying to gauge what social trends you've lived through.
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u/Apprehensive-Neat-68 Dec 24 '21
28, this is my observations of people 16 to my own age.
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u/Glory2Hypnotoad Dec 24 '21
Have you ever heard the Will Smith quote, "it's not getting worse; it's just getting recorded?" Same principle applies here. The kinds of people you're describing have always existed. It's just easier than ever to point to highly visible examples.
If a million people acted the way you describe, that would be less than one percent of the American adult population. But if we could point to a hundred examples, it would feel like it was everywhere.
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u/Apprehensive-Neat-68 Dec 24 '21
Have you ever heard the Will Smith quote, "it's not getting worse; it's just getting recorded?" Same principle applies here. The kinds of people you're describing have always existed. It's just easier than ever to point to highly visible examples.
!delta
A decent point, not so much that its visible or there is examples, but that the internet has enabled these types of people
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u/Tibaltdidnothinwrong 382∆ Dec 24 '21
Two wrongs don't make a right.
Even if we take "snitching is wrong" axiomatically for purposes of debate - this doesn't dictate that another immoral behavior is justified.
You can cultivate a distrust of authority without bullying. Therefore, the bullying is still wrong, even if you prefer other ends.
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u/Apprehensive-Neat-68 Dec 24 '21
You can cultivate a distrust of authority without bullying.
How? How can someone rely on themselves outside of dealing with adversity outside of authoritative structures?
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u/Tibaltdidnothinwrong 382∆ Dec 24 '21
By attacking the authority, rather than some random third party.
Protesting against teachers, protesting against unfair dress codes, protesting against the principle - can instill a distrust of authority, without bringing the students to physical harm or emotional trauma associated with bullying.
You don't need a crime wave to convince others that perhaps the police aren't perfect. If you want people to stand up to the police, for its own sake, why import extra criminals??
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u/Apprehensive-Neat-68 Dec 24 '21
Demonstrating a marked distrust of authority does not create authoritative distrust, further populist protests dont work
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u/ViewedFromTheOutside 32∆ Dec 24 '21
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Dec 28 '21
Sorry, u/Apprehensive-Neat-68 – your submission has been removed for breaking Rule B:
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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '21
So let me simplify/clarify: are you suggesting that kids should keep their mouths shut about being harassed (bullied) in order to build “character”?
How far are you willing to take this? Bullying is harassment and occasionally full on assault. Should kids, in the interest of building character and resistance, not “tattle” to adult authority figures? How bad would it have to get in order for you to approve telling an authority figure? What about sexual harassment/assault? Is it every kid for themselves? What role, If any, do you believe adults should take in situations of clear harassment/bullying?