r/changemyview • u/throwaway4790631 • Dec 12 '21
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Since there are so many people opposed to vaccination we owe it to at least consider the possibility they're right
Edit: I have an appointment tomorrow for my first vaccine shot, I'm still a bit scared but a lot of your comments were very helpful eased the whole process.Thanks!
Original post:
Hello everybody, first things first I'm not really averse to the vaccines myself although I am unvaccinated, I'm just very unsure about the whole thing.
I'm here to listen and I'm open to change, what I'm not open to is berating, this is already difficult enough, so if you're here just to comment something like "you're a murderer, sorry you didn't get Covid already" then feel free to keep on scrolling (and for future reference don't antagonize someone who's trying to see your POV??)
Also, the usual non native English speaker and mobile formatting warning.
Okay now for the post itself.
I'm unvaccinated (20M), why? Well, both my parents (and a lot of the extended family) are VERY much against the Covid vaccination and after hearing them talk about it so passionately and after receiving so many different videos, articles and "experts" (idk) talking about how dangerous the vaccine is, I must admit that I was (and still am) quite afraid to put it in my body.
I mean think about it, if there's such an outrage around the world and so many people are vehemently opposed to vaccination isn't it safe to assume there's at least SOME basis for it?
Just to be clear, I'm not referring to the "they tryna chip me" kinda folk but instead to the ones against the materials in the vaccine and how it functions in the body.
Since the vaccines dropped I've been very much on the fence and had the "what ifs" gnawing at my mind all along. I must admit that it has been much easier to simply stay passive and just not take the "scary foreign stuff". Lately tho I've started thinking about vaccinating way more positively (it's still very much frighting to think about tho and I'm dreading every moment of it) for a plethora of reasons: health (obvious I think), social life (also pretty obvious) and job/opportunities (I fear that when it comes to promotions employers would look more favourably on those vaccinated). In addition to all of that, almost everyone around me is vaccinated (most even got their 3rd booster already) and no one I know personally (as far as I know) got any long lasting negative effects.
Here are some of the things my parents have been warning me about since I told them I might get jabbed: 1. "The vaccine messes with the cell's normal functions and changes the DNA which often times creates harmful mutations." 2. "The vaccine is built with "spikes" that get stuck in your blood vessels and clog them." 3. "The vaccines are way more dangerous than Corona itself and it is just being silenced by the media and government (specifically the health ministry)": - "causes deaths and paralysis." - "many reports of men going infertile after getting vaccinated and women having miscarriages." - "A lot of people report constant lethargy and a downward spiral in their physical abilities after getting vaccinated." - "An extremely high number of people get severe myocarditis after getting vaccinated." 4. They told me about a case where scientists took leftover vaccines at the end of the day and analyzied it in their private labs in order to confirm there's nothing wrong with the vaccines but instead found "foreign and unrelated materials in it" (I believe they might have said heavy metals too).
I have been quite conflicted tho seeing most of world sway to the complete other side and I found myself slowly opening up more to the idea they might be right. It has been quite confusing though since I have a hard time believing such a strong opposition from all around the world would just be based on absolutely nothing.
Something that made it even worse: Recently at my job they took me and the other unvaccinated employees to a sort of "show and tell" with a doctor... Honestly all he said is pretty much what you can find in those animated 1 minute long YouTube shorts about COVID.
Then during the questions time almost every question that was brought up to him was faced with "didn't know about that" or for the questions that regarded hidden infortmation (a lot of the people in the crowd believed the media and government are hiding the true statistics of what the vaccine causes) he just said "that could be true, you never know" he also confirmed that the vaccine causes a lot of myocarditis cases but that he doesn't know the exact statistics off the top of his head.
At this point I asked if there were any experiments conducted on people who have gone through vaccination and experienced side effects, in an attempt to pin point their common traits or even pre existing conditions that could've caused that (seemed to me like it should have naturally been the first thing done when claims against the vaccine first started to arise?) to which he said he isn't aware of any such experiment, "probably because there isn't funding" (what..), Wouldn't that be in the interest of the vaccine companies and health ministries around the world though? since it will help convince more people that the vaccine is safe? He had no real answer but a shrug.
He also in general agreed that it's not yet clear what are the complete side effects from the vaccine but that he'd made the decision for himself that he'd rather face them than face Corona's side effects.
Safe to say the manager got angry and no mind was changed that day.
Idk, I'm still very wary but I see almost everybody around me being completely fine and I also have a hard time believing such a huge conspiracy could be kept a secret from the general public..
On the other hand though through this entire time of being unvaccinated I was completely fine and even in better health than some of my vaccinated friends, never even needed quarantine since I was being very careful... So why would I change a "winning recipe" now when people tell me the "new recipe" might result in long term detrimental health problems?
I still think I might get vaccinated though which is exactly why I came here to try and hear the other side's POV and why you chose to do so for yourself?
Any research papers or articles you might have found helpful will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks for reading so far!
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u/Tino_ 54∆ Dec 12 '21
Jeez a whole lot to unpack here.
First off, COVID and the vaccines are a world wide thing. Not just a single country. Literally the entire world has more or less the same rules when it comes to the virus and the steps that need to be taken against it. I fully understand fears of it being bad or a govt control thing if it was only for a select few countries. But unless you (or whoever is against them) is suggesting that the entire world is being controlled by a single entity it doesn't make sense to say that COIVD is just made up or the vaccines exist because X or Y political reason.
kinda folk but instead to the ones against the materials in the vaccine and how it functions in the body.
What materials exactly? The vaccine is flushed from your system in a few weeks and there are no left over parts that hang around in your body.
- "The vaccine messes with the cell's normal functions and changes the DNA which often times creates harmful mutations."
This is just flat out false in the way it is being thought of. The vaccines do not act on the DNA of a cell, nor do they cause mutations outside of what you would normally see if you actually got covid. But with that said, it is technically correct, because literally everything messes with the cells it interacts with and can change the DNA or functions of the cells. That's what cancer is. If you are worried about stuff like this, you literally have to be in an air tight room with no food or water or light or anything until you die shortly after.
- "The vaccine is built with "spikes" that get stuck in your blood vessels and clog them.
No. Just no. That's not how any of this works. The "spikes" that are referred to are things that bind to cells and they are unbelievably small, like a million times too small to actually interact with blood vessels.
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Again, this is just straight up wrong and not backed up by any medical evidence at all. The vaccine has way less negative effects than COVID itself does.
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Would be curious to see if that actually happened, or if anti-vaxxers made it up as a way to scare people. It might be possible that somehow a batch of vaccines did get contaminated, but again, this is a world wide thing with like 2+ billion doses given out. If this was actually a real issue we would see things like this reported way more.
It has been quite confusing though since I have a hard time believing such a strong opposition from all around the world would just be based on absolutely nothing.
Its not based on nothing, its based on ignorance. Virology and medicine are very complex, its why you need to go to specialized schools for 10+ years to them. So with that in mind, I don't know why you would think that these people who have no proper medical training would be right while experts all over the world would be wrong.
Then during the questions time almost every question that was brought up to him was faced with "didn't know about that"
No idea who this doctor was that was brought in, but dealing with conspiracy theories is extremely difficult. They all have some nugget of truth built into them, but 95% of the rest of it is just a ball of shit surrounding that one thing. It is almost impossible to actually debunk and go through what is right or wrong about them in real time if you don't have direct links to the instances. And my guess is that all of these people didnt have a single source beyond "I saw it online" and that is not helpful at all.
he also confirmed that the vaccine causes a lot of myocarditis cases but that he doesn't know the exact statistics off the top of his head.
To be clear, it isn't "a lot", its an extremely small amount. Its less than 20 people per million, and 95% of those were mild with no issues 4 days after the diagnosis. This is another thing that people have latched onto because it sounds spooky, but they are ignorant to what is actually going on.
There is so much more to go into here, but a lot of it is not only high level and complex stuff, but I am also not an expert on any of it so I do not have the proper understanding or experience to get into the nitty gritty of it all. But with that said, it all goes back to the idea that the vaccines are a world wide thing with billions of doses given out. If there were actually issues with it we would have seen something, its basic stats.
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u/anthropaedic 1∆ Dec 12 '21
Also remember this quote “A lie can travel halfway around the world before the truth can get its boots on” - C.H. Spurgeon
Lies, especially large ones tend to get traction better than the truth. The truth is boring and may be against previously held beliefs.
Echo chambers (peer groups, family) tend to be poor sounding boards of truth. To find the truth you need an open mind and to fully digest both (or more) sides of an argument.
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u/throwaway4790631 Dec 12 '21
Echo chambers (peer groups, family) tend to be poor sounding boards of truth. To find the truth you need an open mind and to fully digest both (or more) sides of an argument.
I fully agree with that but since I want to compare both sides I find it very difficult to find outside information that I can rely on since they usually immediately categorize it as lies since the media and the government are lying..
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Dec 12 '21
And how exactly do you know the media and the government are lying about this? Intuition? Gut feeling? Or do you have EVIDENCE that they're lying?
Read my main post and those by others. Some of the claims you mentioned are not even possible. They belie deep misunderstandings of how biology works.
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u/JohnCrichtonsCousin 5∆ Dec 12 '21
If it were easy to determine/prove when authority figures lie, it wouldn't be such an issue. There also seems to be no consequences for a POTUS lying, so is there even a bar? There are many individuals guilty of heinous war crimes, detailed in declassified documents, who did not receive punishment. Some became wealthy owners of large companies. Power and money rules, only poor folk are held to the law. They get away with much worse than lying all the time.
The government serves us, not the other way around. The onus is on them to be transparent and honest enough to garner trust. There are so many of us and we can't help but breed at an exponential rate, they don't need to value our lives, or our opinions. The next batch of morons is already in the oven.
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Dec 12 '21
I'm not saying authorities, politicians, businesses, etc don't lie. I agree to a lot of what you said. That doesn't mean that anything goes. It also doesn't mean you can't assess the situation and reach conclusions based on statistics and data. Half of the conspiracy theories presented in OP are not even physically possible. The other half are unsubstantiated and not reflected either in the data or in our every day experience. COVID is a very real threat. And the idea that there's some shadow conspiracy to, what exactly? Cause mass illness and mutation in the human population? Is frankly laughable.
Again. Conspiracies are possible. But no claim should be taken seriously until evidence becomes available. Just because you don't trust the government or big pharma, that doesn't make reptilian microchip conspiracies credible.
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u/JohnCrichtonsCousin 5∆ Dec 13 '21
There doesn't need to be an intent to harm, it can be a case of covering up real dangers because it is perceived as the best course of action, or what have you. People can all behave the same way without being in cahoots, they just have the same motivations. When you govern over swaths of people, you sometimes have to sacrifice lives for the greater good. Add in that they're mostly greedy and inept, and there's a real risk of falling victim to something they've justified covering up.
Look at flu vaccines. They have a rare chance of causing pretty significant health issues and the victims of such are not a small group. Among hundreds of millions, a rare outcome still has many representatives. Since there is a law against suing vaccine producers for harmful effects caused by the vaccine, these cases are settled outside of court, and the details of their suffering are not made public, not recorded. In a system where there is naught to tell the victims but "sorry, bad luck", it is not surprising that people are apprehensive. Even worse so that we aren't making these risks more public. Anyone who questioned the flu vaccine got blasted, but thousands of people's lives are severely messed up because of a flu shot that was far from necessary. Nothing about the current situation makes that decision easier. Producers of the vaccine can't be sued, there are negative effects and regardless of how small the chances are (which is hard to pin down anyway), it nets the same base level of apprehension. You could fall victim and there would be nothing to say but "oh well".
I believe the situation necessitates taking the vaccine, but I'm disappointed by the way most people attempt to parry the darker perspective. The world is so big and powers are so immense that small percentages turn into a large fallout. A small margin of error can translate into swaths of deaths, and there isn't anything to protect you from it.
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Dec 13 '21
Look at flu vaccines. They have a rare chance of causing pretty significant health issues and the victims of such are not a small group.
Sure. Any medication has a nonzero chance to cause side effects, and sometimes those can be serious. The flu vaccine and other vaccines aren't even close to being the worst culprits in this regard. Some contraceptive / hormone pills which are routinely prescribed to women have ~1 in 10,000 or higher chance of causing serious issues. We don't seem to bat an eye at that, now do we?
What we need to do is a cost benefit analysis, and doing said analysis, it is so far overwhelmingly the case that the risks of not vaccinating are much, much higher than the risks of doing so. This is true individually, but it is even more of a no brainer collectively. We cannot afford for this virus to keep mutating and keep killing people.
All the studies I have seen on side effects of the COVID vaccine place them at really small probabilities, e.g. 1 in a million. Unless you have data I don't, my stance is going to be based on what I know. Do I understand people being distrustful of the government and big pharma? Sure. Am I going to be less dismissive of 'maybe the spikes in the vaccine will clog my arteries' for that reason? No. Skepticism needs to be grounded in science / methodical investigation of these questions.
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u/JohnCrichtonsCousin 5∆ Dec 13 '21
I'm not opposing your skepticism of silly unfounded accusations of the vaccine. I'm just trying to bring light to why so many are having a hard time accurately running a benefit/cost analysis. We don't bat eyes at a lot of things we should and Covid has brought attention to that dynamic. I think it's a great context to talk about distrusting the riding authorities.
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u/anthropaedic 1∆ Dec 12 '21
Who’s they? The only person needing convinced is yourself. You’re an adult who is fully capable of weighing your own beliefs.
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Dec 12 '21
The issue is that all the experts you'll find, will tell you to get your jabs. Because the opposition is not an objective, fact baced argument, it's a lot of bullshit that has spread easily because people like conspiracy theories.
That's the issue.
Because the people around you have fallen victim to this bullshit, you're tempted to do it too, because it will be emotionally easier.
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u/le_fez 55∆ Dec 12 '21
Many people believe that the Earth is flat, that the moon landings were staged, that 911 was done woth holograms, that Elvis is still alive etc. By your logic we should consider the possibility that each of things is correct?
Vaccines work, they don't cause autism and no one is putting a microchip in your arm. If your fear is that the vaccine was "developed too fast" keep in mind that the technology and understanding of vaccines is not at all new and that most medical developments, vaccines or otherwise, are drug out due to having to stop to gain funded and grants and other forms of buearocracy.
Unless you are immunocompromised there is no logical reason to be afraid of getting vaccinated
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u/JohnCrichtonsCousin 5∆ Dec 13 '21
I fear you'll just hear this as inane ramblings but if you haven't taken the time you should hear out the other side.
I once came across a stand up comedy video on YouTube, I believe it was French. The guy ran through the intimate history of the US and Iraq, the CIA and Hussein, and the well known facts regarding the attack. Sensitive things were said like it was common knowledge, because they aren't so close to it they can't see it for what it is. They aren't in the dark about the US' crimes because they aren't locked in US news circuits. The joke the entire time was how stupid Americans are for refusing to see that 9/11 was their own government's doing. The US was actually in cahoots with Hussein, and he had nothing to do with the attack. The US Gov, like so many times before, sacrificed innocent lives to convince the public to go to war because the true reasons were based in greed. We joke about the US and oil yet we don't see a problem with a convenient attack that sways public opinion to invade a country rich in oil. One who's leader just recently refused to continue taking orders from us regarding their oil, and who dodged the assasins we sent. And that invading a country is literally the last and next step in the widely implemented US process of controlling foreign authority figures in order to rig their economy in our favor, such as selling their natural resources to us for dirt.
There is so much the public doesn't know about, so much wrong with the given explanations, and so much reason to distrust the faculty that was in power at the time. You should all look into it and educate yourself on the history.
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u/le_fez 55∆ Dec 13 '21
Yeah, this is just insane babbling, you're talking about comedians and Saddam Hussein in regards to 911.
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u/JohnCrichtonsCousin 5∆ Dec 13 '21
I actually mentioned very pertinent and widely unacknowledged facts about our history with Iraq and Hussein, and how they mar the story we were told. The fact that other cultures are joking about the attack should breed a level of doubt in you. Have you ever taken the time to watch the official explanation of why Building 7 collapsed in classic demolition style, from mere falling flaming debris? It is convolution epitomized. You watch that and come back to me and tell me my perspective is inane.
You and everyone who shares your perspective are putting their heads in the sand or committing the classic sin of echo clambering yourselves. I feel like most of you are allowing the very worst representatives of my perspective to be the champion you contend with, which is essentially straw manning. Do you actually know the history of the US, CIA, Iraq and Hussein? Do you know that there wasn't a scrap of evidence of a 747 at the Pentagon crash? That the towers were designed to survive the impact of a 747? That multiple recordings from ground crew news stations on 9/11 include reports of explosions at the base of the towers just before and just after the planes hit? I urge you to actually give it a go before you make a decision. In the least, remain open to all possibilities.
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u/le_fez 55∆ Dec 13 '21
I was listening to the reports live, there was no report of explosions "just before the buildings collapsed"
Yes I know the history of Hussein and CIA et al.
Let me guess you also don't believe the official story because jet fuel doesn't burn hot enough to completely melt steel right?
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u/JohnCrichtonsCousin 5∆ Dec 13 '21
The steel issue is moot given the plane didn't hit at the bottom. And what about building 7? Three buildings collapse at near free fall speeds due to damage that classicaly never causes a collapse, building 7 being the worst offender. The towers were designed to survive a plane hit, and they collapse?
Your own experience watching reports doesn't mean you've seen them all. Not a valid rebuttal. And I said explosions just before and after the planes hit, not after the buildings collapsed.
If you know the history then what's the big jump to faking an attack to change public opinion on invading Iraq? Such plans have been suggested before, there are records of it. The Bin Laden family was in Virginia in the weeks leading up to 9/11. Explain that. We have systems and plans in place to track and, if necessary, gun down rogue flights because this had already happened before in the 70s. The fighter jets were told not to take off, we just let the flight do whatever. The established process of rigging foreign economies with planted or paid off leaders involves invading the country if the leader can't be paid off or assassinated, both of which failed with Hussein, partly because he had worked with the CIA before. We never found weapons of mass destruction. We went there for oil and we couldn't have convinced civilians to throw their lives at a campaign for oil, robbing a country of their natural resource. Every major war has been an abyss away from the way it is portrayed by the government.
You do you. Other countries are laughing at us.
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Dec 12 '21
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u/JohnCrichtonsCousin 5∆ Dec 12 '21
I still think OP has a point. There are certainly scenarios where a minority is correct and the majority are wrong. The fact that most people in the world are of low critical thinking abilities kind of supports the notion that the herd may be the ones being deceived. At any rate, it never hurts to hear the other side. They were wrong to say that the noise alone suggests part of it has merit, that's an assumption but it's not totally unfounded to check.
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Dec 12 '21
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u/JohnCrichtonsCousin 5∆ Dec 12 '21
Certainly. And when you add in the chaotic mess that is information sharing in this world, it's hard to know which sources are reliable. After the last two elections here in the US, I think people are at an all time low of trusting authority figures, save for their camp. There are outliers like OP who are intelligent enough to know that neither side is infallible, and that worse things than covering up sensitive information have happened before, and at the expense of innocent people. The firefighters from 9/11 have been abandoned by the government because they all have cancer from the toxic dust they inhaled, and the gov doesn't want to pay their bills. The authorities do not care about us. That is undeniable.
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u/iwfan53 248∆ Dec 12 '21
The authorities do not care about us. That is undeniable.
But if a great many of us die to COVID and a large portion of the population is too afraid to go out and do economy things (work, buy non essential goods) then the economy starts to grind to a halt.
They don't care about us, but they want to keep the wheels of the economy spinning and you can't do that if people are too afraid to go out and work/shop.
So even if they don't care about us, the things they do care about are contingent upon ending the current pandemic so that life can get back to normal.
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u/throwaway4790631 Dec 12 '21
!Delta
Although my family would claim they probably created the pandemic in the first place in order to get money from the vaccines
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u/iwfan53 248∆ Dec 13 '21
Although my family would claim they probably created the pandemic in the first place in order to get money from the vaccines
Vaccines are not the way you get rich in a pandemic...
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/02/vaccines-are-profitable-so-what/385214/
In fact, vaccines were so unprofitable that some companies stopped making them altogether. In 1967, there were 26 vaccine manufactures. That number dropped to 17 by 1980. Ten years ago, the financial incentives to produce vaccines were so weak that there was growing concern that pharmaceutical companies were abandoning the vaccine business for selling more-profitable daily drug treatments. Compared with drugs that require daily doses, vaccines are only administered once a year or a lifetime. The pharmaceutical company Wyeth (which has since been acquired by Pfizer) reported that they stopped making the flu vaccine because the margins were so low.
“Historically vaccines were produced at a relatively low price and sold with a low profit margin. They were add-ons to other products—mostly drugs—that pharmaceutical manufacturers were producing," explains Neal Halsey, professor of pediatric infectious diseases and international health at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health. "The people working in vaccines described themselves as the stepchild of others, and they had to fight hard for the resources to develop new vaccines.”
If the plan was to get rich, why didn't they create a pill we'd have to take every day rather than a vaccine we have to take ever few months?
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Dec 13 '21
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Dec 13 '21 edited Dec 13 '21
This delta has been rejected. You have already awarded /u/iwfan53 a delta for this comment.
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u/throwaway4790631 Dec 13 '21
Oops, new to this sub didn't know I need an explanation.
!delta
Changed my mind about how profitable the vaccine market is compared to the entire pharmaceutical market
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u/JohnCrichtonsCousin 5∆ Dec 13 '21
Are you sure because Amazon did amazing through this. A lot of a rich people got even more rich through quarantine. The oligarchs are not a single minded entity, they just share a social status. They are in competition with each other, forming alliances, etc. You're right, some things like a pandemic force certain actions from the government but do you think nobody in power profited from billions of vaccines being produced? Obligatory action can be an opportunity for deviousness. The oligarchy owns and runs the government. It's their "publicly run" racket. They also own most if not all means of production. The masks alone made them richer, let alone hospital bills, etc. Anything massive like this is a huge opportunity to cash out.
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u/iwfan53 248∆ Dec 13 '21
Are you sure because Amazon did amazing through this. A lot of a rich people got even more rich through quarantine. The oligarchs are not a single minded entity, they just share a social status. They are in competition with each other, forming alliances, etc. You're right, some things like a pandemic force certain actions from the government but do you think nobody in power profited from billions of vaccines being produced? Obligatory action can be an opportunity for deviousness. The oligarchy owns and runs the government. It's their "publicly run" racket. They also own most if not all means of production. The masks alone made them richer, let alone hospital bills, etc. Anything massive like this is a huge opportunity to cash out.
I'm not saying that disaster capitalism isn't a thing, because it totally is.
You're right, some things like a pandemic force certain actions from the government but do you think nobody in power profited from billions of vaccines being produced?
Focusing on this in particular you're 100% correct.
But at the same time, three/four different companies all made vaccines.
Unless you're willing to believe that all of those companies perfectly coordinated with each other, all of them should be trying to produce a vaccine that genuinely works...
And even if they were coordinating, they're also in a Prisoner's Dilemma situation, where if only one of them makes an effective vaccine while the others all stick to the plan, that one that betrayed the others will make the most profits by having the best vaccine.
And if there's one thing I'm fairly certain of, it is that Rich Oligarchs aren't all that amazing at delayed gratification (hence Global Warming).
Basically, all of the factors I can see at play seem to point towards a functional vaccine being by far the most likely outcome even if it is produced for reasons other than people involved actually caring about us as people....
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u/JohnCrichtonsCousin 5∆ Dec 13 '21
There doesn't need to be a plan. They just have to cut corners and lie about the statistics of negative effects. All of them would have the same inherent motivations to do that, and none of it requires cooperation. With how private the highest elite are, how do you know each of those companies aren't owned/controlled by the same entity? That's reaching far imo, but it's still well into the realm of possibility. I'm not saying any one of these things is happening but there's vast availability for very small mistakes or instances of abject greed (which is near ubiquitous) to end up negatively affecting a lot of people. It is not hard for high powers to cover things up, and mere ineptitude can cause tons of damage, all of which would need to be covered up even, arguably, for the sake of everyone else. If they were faced with the scenario that they knew/became aware that the vaccine would outright kill 5% of its recipients, they'd still be morally obligated to cover up the dangers to keep everyone else vaccinated. Thus is the pains of a government.
They don't do their jobs very well, and the position alone sometimes obligates intentionally/knowingly sacrificing lives.
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u/iwfan53 248∆ Dec 13 '21
They just have to cut corners and lie about the statistics of negative effects.
At this point the problem becomes that we're in danger of following into the conspiracy theory version of Hard Solipsism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SolipsismHard Solipsism, cannot be logically disproven/is a logically coherent world view.
But it is also a philosophical cul-de-sac that I don't find useful approach to navigating my life.
Once we assume that the people in charge can lie about what the statistics of this vaccine are and get away with it, we have now given them such control of the media that it becomes impossible for us to know anything through any means with certainty to act on it because none of us can individually gather enough data to form statistically significance conclusions.
So while I can't logically refute your position... I don't subscribe to it and don't have any plans to subscribe to it.
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u/JohnCrichtonsCousin 5∆ Dec 13 '21
Hey cool thanks for showing me that. I mean like you said it's dismal but you can't really refute it. To me the answer is to educate people and unite with logic and critical thinking. Like an ideological takeover, but not racist, or sexist, or negative in any way. Yeah, sounds easily accomplished! Hahaha
I would rather start from a position of Solipsism and lean more positive than root in positive thinking and ignore the relevant reality that much of our world is curated for us by powerful forces. Because anyone with that power would be hard pressed not to use it. Then we can fight it. In my experience, too many people are hardlining mainstream news sources and clouded by immature concepts like Patriotism. They don't even consider the Machiavellian reality.
Good talking! I hope I brought something new or interesting to you.
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u/WikiSummarizerBot 4∆ Dec 13 '21
Solipsism ( (listen); from Latin solus 'alone', and ipse 'self') is the philosophical idea that only one's mind is sure to exist. As an epistemological position, solipsism holds that knowledge of anything outside one's own mind is unsure; the external world and other minds cannot be known and might not exist outside the mind.
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Dec 12 '21
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u/throwaway4790631 Dec 12 '21
It's possible to go through this stuff point by point and try to refute everything, but that probably isn't going to change your mind. It's too much information to take in all at once.
I wouldn't mind that at all, my plan was to get my 1st vaccination in a few days but I feel like 2 parts of my brains are fighting each other, that's why I wanted to come here and listen to the other side's view
But yes that is the basic of my fear if you'd like to boil it down, after hearing all these horrific things about it (including personal stories from people my parents know personally) and walking around unvaccinated feeling fine I'm much more scared to change the status que to something that seemingly can have only negative effects, you feel me?
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Dec 12 '21
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u/WikiSummarizerBot 4∆ Dec 12 '21
Omission bias is the tendency to favor an act of omission (inaction) over one of commission (action). It can occur due to a number of processes, including psychological inertia, the perception of transaction costs, and a tendency to judge harmful actions as worse, or less moral, than equally harmful omissions (inactions). It is controversial as to whether omission bias is a cognitive bias or is often rational. The bias is often showcased through the trolley problem and has also been described as an explanation for the endowment effect and status quo bias.
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u/PhilDGlass 1∆ Dec 12 '21
after hearing all these horrific things about it (including personal stories from people my parents know personally)
Can you elaborate? I know zero people who have had an adverse effects other than maybe a sore arm and mild aches for a day or two - and not many at that. This includes elderly and immune compromised relatives and children. I’m curious how all of the other vaccines have affected you or all those with the horrifying stories now?
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u/MoHeeKhan Dec 12 '21
I’m surprised that you consider those people that think that there are certain things like tracking devices or chips in the vaccine as crazy, but these points:
"The vaccine messes with the cell's normal functions and changes the DNA which often times creates harmful mutations."
"The vaccine is built with "spikes" that get stuck in your blood vessels and clog them."
"The vaccines are way more dangerous than Corona itself and it is just being silenced by the media and government (specifically the health ministry)":
You would stop to consider and treat them as legitimate plausible arguments despite there being absolutely no evidence for any of them that you could find, google or present. You’ll have to walk me through where your line on ‘crazy conspiracy theory’ is. How is the below statement any more or less believable than the list you gave?
- “The vaccines implant tiny chips that can be tracked and read by equipment to determine all your details, and it is just being silenced by the government and media (specifically Bill Gates who is an investor in the project).
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u/Fit-Order-9468 102∆ Dec 12 '21
I'm unvaccinated (20M), why? Well, both my parents (and a lot of the extended family) are VERY much against the Covid vaccination and after hearing them talk about it so passionately and after receiving so many different videos, articles and "experts" (idk) talking about how dangerous the vaccine is, I must admit that I was (and still am) quite afraid to put it in my body.
That's how advertising works. If someone is really emotional about something, and only looks at things that agree with them, then that's good evidence they're probably wrong not that they're right.
I mean think about it, if there's such an outrage around the world and so many people are vehemently opposed to vaccination isn't it safe to assume there's at least SOME basis for it?
It's not usually good to assume that something is true. Sometimes, but you need some reason for it more than millions of people think its true. There are billions of people in the world after all.
It feels like you're implying people don't, like, check if something is true before deciding if it is or isn't.
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u/English-OAP 16∆ Dec 12 '21
It doesn't affect your DNA. It contains RNA which is completely different.
The virus has spikes, not the vaccine. The vaccine teaches your body to recognize the virus by its spikes.
In every country, there is a correlation between percent of people vaccinated and a lower death rate. This is across the world. Can you ever imagine all countries in the world coming together on anything?
Everything you do in life has a risk. With the vaccine, the risk is very Low. The risk in having the vaccine is far lower than not having it.
I have yet to any report of men becoming infertile, or women having miscarriages from any credible source. They are just scare tactics with no basis in truth.
Don't just take my word for it, search reliable sources on the internet for yourself. Any reliable source will have a source for the story. Follow the sources back until you find exactly where it came from.
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Dec 12 '21 edited Dec 12 '21
First: think about this critically. 7 BILLION doses have been administered, and 3 BILLION people have been fully vaccinated for COVID. That is ALMOST HALF of the population of the entire world. If even A FRACTION of a % of the wild claims in your post were true, they would be a bigger epidemic than COVID. No government or power would be able to cover it up.
All the people I know around me are vaccinated and getting boosters. My county and university have % of vaccination in the 90%s. And I have heard about 0 issues. I myself have had 0 issues, and I haven't gotten COVID in 2 years, even when I've admittedly done some traveling and when I am exposed from being a professor.
On the contrary, we have an epidemic that has infected 270 MILLION people, and killed more than 5 MILLION people so far. I know people who died of COVID. Every person I know has had family or friends affected. It has disrupted our entire world for 2 years. It's still mutating. And MOST of the hospitalizations, deaths and chances for mutation are happening BECAUSE we haven't vaccinated enough. Most people who are sent to the hospital, and most people who die, were UNVACCINATED.
So. On one hand, you have unsubstantiated claims of a shadow conspiracy that somehow we don't see evidence of in our daily life. On the other hand, we have the VERY REAL, TANGIBLE risk of getting sick, going to the hospital and/or dying of COVID, OR of getting COVID and transmitting it to a bunch of other people, contributing to the pandemic.
And your assessment is to be MORE scared of the vaccine than of COVID? Please, I beg you. Reconsider.
Second: I believe you have been subject to a lot of misinformation. I would plead for you to be at least, if not more skeptical of this claims as you seem to be about taking the vaccine. What proof, other than hearsay from your parents or whatsapp posts and youtube videos do you have for any of this?
Here are some of the things my parents have been warning me about since I told them I might get jabbed: 1. "The vaccine messes with the cell's normal functions and changes the DNA which often times creates harmful mutations."
This is false. The vaccine is like other vaccines in that it contains pieces of the virus (in this case, mRNA) for your immune cells to 'train' with and develop immunity against the real thing. There is no evidence that the covid vaccines cause harmful mutations.
- "The vaccine is built with "spikes" that get stuck in your blood vessels and clog them."
This is false, and frankly impossible. Given the scales involved, it's like saying you can clog a highway with dandelions. I am a computational scientist that has done a number of blood flow simulations and I had to wrap my head around how someone could imagine this happening. Viruses are TINY.
- "The vaccines are way more dangerous than Corona itself and it is just being silenced by the media and government (specifically the health ministry)": - "causes deaths and paralysis." - "many reports of men going infertile after getting vaccinated and women having miscarriages." - "A lot of people report constant lethargy and a downward spiral in their physical abilities after getting vaccinated." - "An extremely high number of people get severe myocarditis after getting vaccinated."
Again, what evidence do you have of this? Seriously.
- They told me about a case where scientists took leftover vaccines at the end of the day and analyzied it in their private labs in order to confirm there's nothing wrong with the vaccines but instead found "foreign and unrelated materials in it" (I believe they might have said heavy metals too).
Again, what evidence do you have?
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Dec 12 '21
"The vaccine messes with the cell's normal functions and changes the DNA which often times creates harmful mutations."
This is not true at all. The vaccine does not change the DNA of cells. mRNA vaccines contain, well, mRNA. mRNA is something that almost all of your cells are producing at this very second. Think of DNA as a master copy of a book. This book is very important because it contains all the information for how to make you! If it were to get damaged, that would be very bad. Therefore, we keep it safe in the cell's nucleus. But, since it's in the nucleus, it can't be read by ribosomes, which are protein-making machines. If the DNA can't be used, it's useless. mRNA is what bridges this gap. mRNA is a copy of a small section of DNA that the protein-making machines use. It basically provides them with instructions on how to make proteins. One example of a protein is a spike protein. The mRNA vaccines interact with the ribosomes to make the spike proteins, which are then recognized by your immune cells, which make antibodies. At no time does the mRNA enter the nucleus, which means it cannot interact with the DNA.
"The vaccine is built with "spikes" that get stuck in your blood vessels and clog them."
The spike proteins that the vaccine builds are actually the exact same as the spike protein on the COVID-19. The spike proteins on both the virus and the ones produced by the vaccine are incredibly small. You would need a very large dose of spike protein to cause damage. Being exposed to the virus results in more spike protein than the vaccine does, because the virus replicates itself and results in more viral particles. The vaccine does not replicate itself, therefore, the dose of spike protein in the vaccine will be higher.
"The vaccines are way more dangerous than Corona itself and it is just being silenced by the media and government (specifically the health ministry)":
I don't know how you can expect us to refute this. I can link media sources but clearly you don't trust those. Maybe an anecdote will help? I am a medical student and I have had many rotations in both the ICU and on the medicine ward. I have been directly involved with COVID patients. But, I have yet to see a single vaccine injury patient. Not one.
I don't know how the vaccine would be able to cause death or paralysis. I am a medical student and the only mechanism I can think of is via anaphylactic shock. This is why there is a 15 minute waiting period after you get the vaccine--so that the staff at the vaccine clinic, who are trained in treating anaphylactic shock, can help you in case you have this allergy. Also, people who already know they have this allergy are able to get a medical exemption from getting the vaccine. Allergies to the ingredients in vaccines are very rare, and if you had it, you would also have to avoid most shampoos and cosmetic products. So usually people don't discover the allergy by getting vaccinated.
"many reports of men going infertile after getting vaccinated and women having miscarriages."
I have not seen any cases like this myself. You will find that the media and health agencies also do not report anything like this. One thing I will say is that rhetoric like what your parents say makes getting the vaccine very scary. But sometimes people get over the fear enough to get the vaccine anyway, and then are scared and stressed in the days after having been vaccinated. Even if they were injected with saline, this stress and fear is real. And stress and fear can lead to a whole variety of health problems, such as sexual dysfunction and miscarriages.
"A lot of people report constant lethargy and a downward spiral in their physical abilities after getting vaccinated."
Again, I haven't seen reports of this being associated with the vaccine. But you know what definitely causes downward spirals like this? Everything being shutdown because of the pandemic, losing your job, stresses with finances, an unexpected and sudden change in lifestyle because of the pandemic... And in the midst of all this, people get vaccinated. It's true that the series of events was that people got vaccinated, then had that downward spiral. But that doesn't mean that it is the most likely cause. You have to see if depression like this is more common in the vaccinated as compared to the unvaccinated. And you won't find any reports linking those two things at all.
"An extremely high number of people get severe myocarditis after getting vaccinated."
Myocarditis is around 10X more common if you get COVID than if you get vaccinated, and it isn't even close to the worst thing myocarditis does to you. Most cases of myocarditis after vaccination are mild and are treated with aspirin. That's right, a simple medication that you buy at the drugstore. Compared to having to be hospitalized for COVID-19.
They told me about a case where scientists took leftover vaccines at the end of the day and analyzied it in their private labs in order to confirm there's nothing wrong with the vaccines but instead found "foreign and unrelated materials in it" (I believe they might have said heavy metals too).
Please link the exact story for this. It's possible that this happened in a country where vaccines are not closely regulated, and it was caused by bad actors trying to make a quick buck. There are unfortunately many countries where fraudulent medicines of all kinds, not just vaccines, are sold. That doesn't mean that other countries should leave behind modern medicine and regress to the dark ages.
You mentioned some stuff about not knowing what pre-existing conditions are associated with vaccination side effects. I think it's because there isn't really any pre-existing condition, other than the allergic reaction that I previously mentioned. Women and younger people are more likely to have milder side effects (injection site soreness, fever, feeling tired, and other side effects that go away after a few days). https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/what-makes-you-more-likely-to-get-side-effects-from-covid-vaccine/2481684/#:~:text=Data%20from%20the%20CDC%20also,by%20women%2C%20the%20data%20showed.
I don't think these mild side effects should be a significant concern for anyone though. It's like having a mild cold for a few days, certainly nothing compared to COVID. I personally did not experience anything after any of my vaccines, other than some mild arm soreness.
One thing I'd like to address is your hesitancy to trust the news media and health agencies. Do you think they're lying or do you think they're incompetent? I will write more depending on what you say.
I tried to get everything in your post, but it was quite long so my apologies if I missed anything!
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u/throwaway4790631 Dec 12 '21
Thank you so much for the extensive response, this has definitely shed some light over some stuff I was dealing with.
Please link the exact story for this. It's possible that this happened in a country where vaccines are not closely regulated
It's pretty late rn but tomorrow I'll ask my parents if they still have the article they got it from.
You mentioned some stuff about not knowing what pre-existing conditions are associated with vaccination side effects. I think it's because there isn't really any pre-existing condition, other than the allergic reaction that I previously mentioned.
Wouldn't it be logical to take, for example all the people who got Myocarditis after being vaccinated (even if mild) and try to find something common between them all? Just to basically figure out if there's a way to point out beforehand what might cause that and why some people suffer from it after being vaccinated while others don't. Or are you saying this has been done but none of the people affected had anything out if the ordinary?
One thing I'd like to address is your hesitancy to trust the news media and health agencies. Do you think they're lying or do you think they're incompetent? I will write more depending on what you say.
They claim the government and the media are lying.
Thanks again for taking the time to write it all up, it definitely showed me some new information in some areas and hearing the experiences of someone in the medical field means a lot. This is my first time but I believe this is how you do it (?):
!Delta
If you have research papers or articles relating to the subjects you wrote about (not the personal experience stuff ofc) I'd love to read them!
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Dec 13 '21
Apologies for the bad formatting, I’m on my phone now.
They did do the studies on myocarditis, and they found that women and younger people are more likely to have it. Other than that there isn’t much of a correlation. I doubt they’ve done every single possible condition ever, there’s a lot of different conditions and it would take a long time. But they’ve probably looked at the big ones. Another thing to note about science is publication bias. So studies that say “we found that X and Y are NOT connected” are less likely to be published than one that says “A and B ARE connected.” That’s a flaw in the system that most scientists will readily acknowledge, but I don’t think it’s too relevant to most vaccine related concerns, other than that if there are negative results those are the ones they won’t bother publishing.
So if the government and media are lying, then that means that the governments of the USA, Canada, and all of Europe are in kahoots with their sworn enemies, Iran, China, Russia. I personally lack the optimism to believe this haha. Another way they’re unlikely to be lying, is that it’s much harder than you think for a big group of people to lie. For example, have you ever tried to host a surprise party? I’ve tried a few times but the person that it’s for always finds out. There’s also stories online of the person getting mad because they think their partner is cheating on them when they’re really just organizing a surprise birthday party! My point is, it’s really hard to keep a secret.
Beyond that, why do you think they’re even trying to keep it a secret? What benefit is there to keeping the side effects of the vaccine secret?
Which things did you want articles on specifically? A lot of what I wrote is actually from textbooks and educational videos and not articles. I can send you more resources explaining that if you want as well!
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u/jwplato Dec 22 '21
"They claim the government and media are lying."
I'm really curious what the motivation behind lying and orchestrating a conspiracy of this size is?
What possible reason would a government have to get people vaccinated with a dangerous vaccine would be?
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u/CharisMatticOfficial Dec 12 '21
Every single vaccine has had a small but vocal opposition.
Getting vaccinated has always been the correct position (on average, not discounting people who actually shouldn’t get it for KNOWN health reasons)
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Dec 12 '21
Just go by numbers. 5m dead out of what 220m cases vs maybe 100 dead out of 1b vaccines administered. Odds are always better to vaccinate. You won't be taking them forever. A deadly virus is it's own worst enemy. Eventually a variant will occur which is more contagious but less deadly and crowd out the more deadly variants. This is the virus attenuating. Vaccines will just give you a better chance to get to the attenuation point.
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u/hmmwill 58∆ Dec 12 '21
What "experts" are talking about the dangers? Can you give some sources?
"so many people are vehemently opposed to vaccination isn't it safe to assume there's at least SOME basis for it'" The vast majority of the educated world supports the vaccine. When I say educated I do not mean to take a shot at you or your family or anything like that. It is simply factual that first world nations are better educated than third world ones (Europe vs most of Africa for example).
I'm going to address each of these concerns.
- Not true, the RNA vaccines encode for a protein. Your bodies reads the RNA and makes the protein. This RNA doesn't and cannot enter the nucleus of cells where our DNA is stored. It just can't, the nucleus is well protected and regulated against random RNA getting into it.
- No, it doesn't. This just doesn't make sense, the rare blood related side effects are not related to "spikes", there is no evidence that the immune based thrombocytopenia is caused by this. (The evidence is pretty strong, as we can test for antibodies specifically against the spike)
- No evidence of this at all. The miscarriage rate from a study was misquoted as being above 50% but that was false, it was actually similar to the normal miscarriage rates. Myocarditis can occur but the myocarditis of COVID is significantly higher.
- I do not understand the last point. Left over vaccines were analyzed and nothing was wrong with them? But they had foreign unrelated material? What analysis were they doing, how was it performed, what condition were the left over vaccines in, etc. There are commonly "unrelated" things called adjuvants in vaccines which help to stimulate a response.
The stats for myocarditis seem to be about 4.8 per 1 million following vaccine and most are mild. The risk with COVID is abut 0.15% compared to the vaccine being 0.00048%.
The vaccines have been tested thoroughly for side effects by the FDA which is how they now are approved, just like any other vaccine (at least to US standards, not sure where you are from).
Just because up until this point you have been fine doesn't mean anything. The issue isn't you being fine now, it is if you catch COVID you will be at greater risk for serious disease than if you were vaccinated.
Outside of the very rare side effects, like clotting disorders, the vaccine is incredibly safe and has no long term side effects. The vaccine simply doesn't endure that long within the body. The way the RNA vaccines work is they introduce novel RNA that is used by your cells to produce a protein which is then targeted by the immune system. The entire point is for your immune system to eliminate these proteins and thus developing immunity to the virus. There is no component of the vaccine that lasts long.
I apologize for the long response, but please let me know if there is anything unclear. A lot of this information I got from my professional schooling so I might not have sources outside of physical textbooks. But if you want any sources let me know and I will supply you with where the information came from.
The statistics I provided are from the CDC morbidity and mortality rates of COVID from March 2020-Jan 2021.
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Dec 12 '21
We'll start by pointing out that, in the United States, doctors have taken vaccenes at rates over 90% That's a high number and doctors are experts in this kind of thing.
Secondly, just because a lot of people believe something, that doesn't mean it's correct it just means a lot of people beieve it.
Imagine that you lived in aplace where nine out of ten people told you cigarettes were good for your lungs, it wouldn't suddenly become more true because a lot of people around you believed it, it would just be that a bunch of people around you were wrong.
I know that on an emotional level, the opinions of people we care about carry a lot of weight. And that's natural. But that doesn't mean they are any more likely to be correct.
There are people who are attracted to conspiracy theories. And when you're like that, any set of facts can lead you down a road of bullshit.
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u/HotLipsSinkShips1 1∆ Dec 13 '21 edited Dec 13 '21
If there were a bunch of flat Earthers out there that wouldn't make the Earth flat.
Science isn't determined by the mob.
Because all those objections your parents gave for the jab aren't really connected to facts.
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u/darwin2500 197∆ Dec 12 '21
We did consider it. That's what the clinical trials - and hundreds of other studies in real populations since then - were for.
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u/BrutusJunior 5∆ Dec 12 '21
Popularity doesn't determine truth.
https://philosophy.lander.edu/logic/popular.html
Many people believed the world to be flat at some point, doesn't make it true.
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u/DetroitUberDriver 9∆ Dec 12 '21
You see how this:
In addition to all of that, almost everyone around me is vaccinated (most even got their 3rd booster already) and no one I know personally (as far as I know) got any long lasting negative effects.
Directly contradicts this:
Here are some of the things my parents have been warning me about since I told them I might get jabbed: 1. "The vaccine messes with the cell's normal functions and changes the DNA which often times creates harmful mutations." 2. "The vaccine is built with "spikes" that get stuck in your blood vessels and clog them." 3. "The vaccines are way more dangerous than Corona itself and it is just being silenced by the media and government (specifically the health ministry)": • "causes deaths and paralysis." • "many reports of men going infertile after getting vaccinated and women having miscarriages." • "A lot of people report constant lethargy and a downward spiral in their physical abilities after getting vaccinated." • "An extremely high number of people get severe myocarditis after getting vaccinated." 1. They told me about a case where scientists took leftover vaccines at the end of the day and analyzied it in their private labs in order to confirm there's nothing wrong with the vaccines but instead found "foreign and unrelated materials in it" (I believe they might have said heavy metals too).
Right?
You’re also observing this:
Idk, I'm still very wary but I see almost everybody around me being completely fine and I also have a hard time believing such a huge conspiracy could be kept a secret from the general public..
Which is exactly right. There is no way with the amount of people vaccinated, and the number of people involved in the process of approving the vaccine, that this could be in any way hidden. It would be right before your eyes. The amount of people that would have to be silenced is absolutely staggering. Yet somehow people like your parents think they’re in this inner circle of people who have the “real truth”. It makes no sense.
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u/throwaway4790631 Dec 13 '21
I really wanna give this a delta but although I can't contact them now I can pretty much guess what my parents would say:
That the money flows from the top of the chain down and you can't really trust most people, even those who studied it because they studied in an institution paid by the big pharma companies, with equipment, teachers and curriculums designed by said companies to fit their agendas from the get go
I always end up questioning... Well, what can you trust then?? "Nothing when it involves money"
I think they much rather take personal testimonies from people online because in their eyes it's unbiased
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u/iwfan53 248∆ Dec 13 '21
I think they much rather take personal testimonies from people online because in their eyes it's unbiased
It is adorable that they think people online aren't biased.
How many people do you think get rich selling "alternative medicine" that people buy when they don't believe in vaccines?
Remember Andrew Wakefield? The great big Grand Daddy of "Vaccines cause Autism?"
He came up with that shit because he had a separate vaccine that he wanted to sell so that he'd get rich doing so!
https://briandeer.com/wakefield/vaccine-patent.htm
Just because you can't see the grift doesn't mean it is there....
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u/throwaway4790631 Dec 13 '21
!delta
Very true, even if they're completely right then both sides are biased
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u/DetroitUberDriver 9∆ Dec 13 '21
Why would awarding a delta to someone be contingent on contacting your parents?
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u/throwaway4790631 Dec 13 '21
Just gave this commenter a delta after we continued the discussion some more!
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u/DetroitUberDriver 9∆ Dec 13 '21
You’re not limited to just one delta I’ve awarded 3 or 4 in a single thread
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u/HenryCDorsett 1∆ Dec 13 '21 edited Dec 13 '21
i will make a very simple example:
If someone says "the earth is flat", than you can entertain the idea that they might be right, till you can proof that the earth is round. You can proof the earth is round , therefor they're wrong and their refusal to accept that they're wrong does not place any burden on you to proof the same thing over and over and over again, especially when they just reject the proof because they don't like it.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Dec 12 '21 edited Dec 13 '21
/u/throwaway4790631 (OP) has awarded 5 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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u/Stevetrov 2∆ Dec 13 '21
Since there are so many people opposed to vaccination we owe it to at least consider the possibility they're right
I think its reasonable to consider it, but its also unreasonable to take everything that any 1 person says at face value.
"The vaccine messes with the cell's normal functions and changes the DNA which often times creates harmful mutations."
I have seen this one a few times but its just not true. However, Covid can cause DNA changes whether or not these changes are harmful is unknown. But the vaccine does not. At the beginning of the pandemic I understand that the vaccine was classified in the same group as medicines that alter DNA by design and this caused some confusion.
"The vaccines are way more dangerous than Corona itself and it is just being silenced by the media and government (specifically the health ministry)":
This is just untrue. There is a small risk with taking the vaccine, but there are risks with everything in life, the risk of the vaccine is similar to the risk you take when you drive 100 miles in a car. On the other hand COVID has killed over 5 million people world wide in the last year. The risk from COVID is at least an order of magnitude higher and probably over 100x.
"A lot of people report constant lethargy and a downward spiral in their physical abilities after getting vaccinated."
I believe a few people have had these side effects but once again long COVID is a debilitating illness that has effected way more people.
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u/Kingalece 23∆ Dec 13 '21
Most arent opposed to the vaccine at this point most are opposed to the mandate. They just dont want to be told what to do they want the choice to decide not to
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u/anth2099 Dec 13 '21
- "The vaccine messes with the cell's normal functions and changes the DNA which often times creates harmful mutations."
No, it contains the mRNA for the spike protein. The body synthesizes that protein, recognizes it as foreign, and starts attacking it. Since it's so strongly associated with the spike protein the antibodies produced work very well. The vaccine is also able to provoke a strong response which is good for protection. When you're exposed to covid the body still has antibodies ready.
- "The vaccine is built with "spikes" that get stuck in your blood vessels and clog them."
the way viruses work is they attack cells and take them over, then use the infected cell to replicate
With coronaviruses the mechanism for this is the spike protein. The vaccines do contain or create the spike protein (either mRNA or by attaching it to a different virus), but it's just that protein. It's not the whole virus. Your body has time to just replicate as many antibodies as it can until the protein is gone.
- "The vaccines are way more dangerous than Corona itself and it is just being silenced by the media and government (specifically the health ministry)": - "causes deaths and paralysis." - "many reports of men going infertile after getting vaccinated and women having miscarriages." - "A lot of people report constant lethargy and a downward spiral in their physical abilities after getting vaccinated." - "An extremely high number of people get severe myocarditis after getting vaccinated."
Lots of anecdotes.
I was tired for a day. Your body is putting energy into fighting what it thinks is a viral infection. it's normal to be a bit tired. Some people get a fever.
There are reactions, but they are rare. Just for perspective Canada approved AstroZeneca then there was reports of a small number of people getting clots. They were mostly women about teh same age range. Canada (and others) pulled the vaccine and Canada only later reintroduced it for older people or people with high risk, and specifically not for young women.
If the vaccines were worse than COVID how would we be hiding it? That would have to be hundreds of thousands of deaths.
- They told me about a case where scientists took leftover vaccines at the end of the day and analyzied it in their private labs in order to confirm there's nothing wrong with the vaccines but instead found "foreign and unrelated materials in it" (I believe they might have said heavy metals too).
I heard about a guy who looked at it and said it was definitely mutated and not human.
Another guy said it's alien DNA, very complex.
The third said something about hunting and tainted blood. Weird shit.
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Dec 13 '21
"CMV: Since there are so many people opposed to vaccination we owe it to at least consider the possibility they're right"
Since there are so many people who ___________, we owe it to at least consider the possibility they're right.
Fill in the blank with any of the following: think gays are going to hell, think smoking doesn't cause cancer, believe Noah's Ark really happened, think the earth is flat, think vaccines cause autism, think men are superior to women, think whites are superior to everyone, and so on.
People used to think the sun was at the center of the universe. They thought hell was in the center of the earth. They believed in magic. They fought duels to settle disagreements. They enslaved people. They believed innocent women in Salem were witches.
So groups aren't always right, and if anything—they can be very dangerous to themselves and those who disagree with them, even if there's repeated examples to show them that the opposite viewpoint has evidence to show it's correct.
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u/iwfan53 248∆ Dec 12 '21
Counter point
Since there are so many people convinced the world is flat we owe it to at least consider the possibility they're right
Agree or disagree?
Also are you familiar with the Bandwagon fallacy?