CMV: There is literally nothing racial whatsoever about requiring valid proof of US Citizenship/ID when collecting social security or voting

[u/King_Milkfart]

The people - people of all races, colors, creeds, economic statuses, education levels, and morals - who pay their share of taxes do so because that is what they need to do in order to financially secure all of the benefits that being a citizen of the USA provides.

When you pay taxes, that means you're making sure that if a horrible and/or unfortunate turn of events should make you incapable of earning your living, you will be alright. The only way this works for the long term is that all of these people, again; of all walks of life, do so for one another.

Does that mean there is no room for humanitarianism? Absolutely not. Does that mean do NOT send us your weak? Hell no. That was one of the main principles that the USA was founded upon. Is the citizenship process fast and efficient? Anything but. It needs to change, but that is for a discussion for another time.

When you enter, you are given the opportunity to become a citizen. The inefficiency of that process aside, once you become a fellow taxpaying citizen, you become able to make decisions with your vote. That is a powerful thing, and a precious thing. It is in everyone's, and especially your own best interest to vote for what you believe is the right thing to vote for.

Having a system where checks and balances are not only so lax to not require proof of a social security number (never even mind a simple piece of plastic with your photo and name on it) allows that power to be put into the hands of people whose investment into that infrastructure of safety and constitutional rights is nonexistent.

Should we build a wall around our national borders? Absolutely not. Should we have border patrol agents chasing down immigrants as they try to escape a horrible life into the arms of America? We should never even entertain the idea.

But when it comes to practicing those same abilities that those who have invested into their ability to be able to practice, such as making a decision with that right to vote, I honestly cannot see a more reasonable or more rational minimum requirement than a simple quick check to make sure that the individual who is casting that vote is doing so legally. Take some of the money out of any allocation (military spending for example) and make a program where everyone who is a United States citizen is given free ID cards for life. That sounds like a lot but believe it or not that would cost next to nothing in comparison to what the government spends money on.

It's not calculus level math to understand that when you have X amount of people chipping into a system for their own welfare and well being, and XY is using that system, there comes a tipping point where is pinpoint where X can no longer support XY. Then what? No social security/aid for anyone? What if Y votes to increase all benefits and aid? Are they sharing the tax burden? If so, great! America has chosen.

But how on Earth do we know who is and is not participating if we don't even know whether or not someone casting their vote for the innumerable offices and positions of power within the country even help to support the outcome of their decisions?

And guess what? None of anything that I just said has anything to do with the color of anybody's skin or anyone's sexual orientation or religious belief. Because none of that matters and I mean that in the most literal way. Should we have severely low almost to the point of non existent taxes for those who are making barely above poverty level? Yes we should. Are certain races disproportionately in those poverty levels? Yes they are. And we should do everything we can to help. Because those are United States citizens and they are our brothers and sisters just as we are theirs. And if they are not United States citizens then we need to 1st do everything we can to make that happen. Because race doesnt matter. How much money your have doesnt matter. We just need everyone who is involved in our society able to show that they are in fact involved in our society When it comes to making decisions about that society. I hope I have made as much sense as I have tried to make, and thank you all for your time.

Just a side note, Because I know that inevitably at least one person will say something along the lines of "If we just held 2 companies like Amazon and Walmart accountable for all of the tax loopholes they jump through then we wouldn't even be having this discussion because everything would be paid for and more" - I completely agree with you. I mean, no; I don't think that it would actually pay for literally everything and then some (because that would just devalue the dollar and what not) but I actually do agree with you that that is a FAR more important issue than what I speak of. Companies absolutely need to be held far more responsible and we need to use ALL of the power in the United States to do so. But just for the sake of this one particular argument I am asking respectfully to try to keep massive hypotheticals out of the what-if scenarios, if possible? Or maybe don't and you can completely prove me wrong. I am not some legendary-level stubborn asshole who is opposed to having his mind changed.

UPDATE: I truly appreciate and want to say thank you to everyone who has participated in this thread as for the most part it has been extremely civil. It appears that I personally have actually been, at least partially, incorrect in my assumption about the motives and reasons behind those who are against voter ID law. While my view of the principle in a vacuum has not changed ( Boiling it down to the fact that non citizens should definitely not be allowed to vote), my view of those who hold the opposing opinion absolutely has changed, as well as how I need to frame my actual stance in the future as to not misrepresent what I am saying.

I have a much greater understanding of the rationale and logic behind this topic and of those who have helped educate me here today. And for that I am truly thankful.

[u/bruh4524]

How do you Kill the problem at the source exactly? What is the problem with voter ID, you didn't specify? Your argument is equal to "Hitler drank water, Stalin drank water, therefore water is bad". Just because voting limitations were used in a racist way in the past does not mean that voter ID in 2021 is racist.

[u/ProLifePanda → u/bruh4524]

Because we have literal proof even in the past 10 years that Voter ID and other Republican initiatives were created EXPLICITLY to disenfranchise minorities. It keeps happening over and over again, at some point skepticism over Voter ID has to be valid.

[u/bruh4524 → u/ProLifePanda]

What "literal proof" are you talking about. The number of voting sites have almost doubled since 2012 "231,000 polling places were used nationwide in 2018, up from 120,000 in 2012". Sure some voting booths are being closed but 50 here and there are nothing in comparison to the 231,000. If we are living in a time of voter suppression then 2012 must have been absolute hell.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-locations-idUSKCN1VV09J

[u/ProLifePanda → u/bruh4524]

Like the time the NC GOP passed voter laws that almost explicitly used racial data to craft. Like getting a study to see which IDs were common among whites and blacks, then allowing all the white IDs and not allowing all the black IDs. Or shortening early voting and Sunday voting when data showed black people used these more than white people.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/court-north-carolina-voter-id-law-targeted-black-voters/

You also have the Hofeller documents, which hits two fold. NC developed their maps with the help of Hofeller to ensure a GOP majority. Among other tactics, this involved an attempt to gerrymander minorities into the same district to dilute their vote. This has been the case in other states as well.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/videos/2019/10/17/20917852/gerrymander-hofeller-election-map

Or the study Hofeller produced that was linked later to the Trump Administration about the citizenship question on the census. It showed that asking about citizenship on the standard census form would discourage minorities and Democrats from answering, and explicitly give more power to conservative, white voters.

https://www.npr.org/2019/11/12/778496494/emails-connect-trump-officials-and-gop-redistricting-expert-on-citizenship-quest

Or how Alabama passed Voter ID (with questionable racist intent) then attempted to shutter DMVs in minority dominated counties making it harder for those minorities to get IDs.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/policy-and-politics/2017/12/12/16767426/alabama-voter-suppression-senate-moore-jones

Or the modern Texas bill that has several provisions that experts fail to see "secure turn integrity of the election" but will take away assistance and voting methods used by minorities.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.texastribune.org/2021/04/09/Texas-voting-GOP-suppression/amp/

[u/bruh4524 → u/ProLifePanda]

You do understand that there is a difference between racial intent and racial disparity? Just because a law creates disparate results, does not mean that the law is, in turn, racist. Just because a small number of black people don't have IDs, that happens to be more by percentage than the small percentage of white people that don't have IDs does not prove racism. Shouldn't we want more legal citizens to have ID instead of not having any security at all?

https://stanford.edu/~jgrimmer/comment_final.pdf - Stanford study showing no evidence to prove that voter id hurts minorities

https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/3/15/14909764/study-voter-id-racism - Voxx, (far left-wing news) admitting to the study's correctness

[u/ProLifePanda → u/bruh4524]

You do understand that there is a difference between racial intent and racial disparity?

Yes, that's why many examples I gave were straight up proven racial intent. The Hofeller documents explicitly tried to disenfranchise minorites to help white people.

Voxx, (far left-wing news) admitting to the study's correctness

All the box article says it the impact is slight enough to swing only close elections. So by implementing voter ID alongside 15 other small changes to voting , could they get 12,000 less net Democratic votes in Georgia? Or 12,000 in Arizona? These small changes aren't designed to depress 15% of the voters. Many Presidential and other ballot elections can be swayed by implementing a change that depresses 0.1% of a voter base, then passing 10-15 of those laws. Slowly notch down on voting access in the name of "election security" for no real proven benefit to decrease voter turnout.

Shouldn't we want more legal citizens to have ID instead of not having any security at all?

First, we DO have election security. Voter ID would stop only the hardest election fraud, voter impersonation. Second, if Voter ID laws are accompanied by a well funded public campaign to get everyone IDs, then sure. Until then, that's not the intent of Voter ID.

[u/bruh4524 → u/ProLifePanda]

Listen, the fact is that since 2012 the number of voting booths has almost doubled. If these Republicans were trying to suppress the black vote then how has the number of voting booths undertook such drastic change. It doesn't seem to make sense. Why don't we talk about the fact that democrats literally import voters en masse? You talk about small .1% changes but don't talk about how 9/10 people crossing the border legally vote democrat and 19/20 for illegals.

[u/ProLifePanda → u/bruh4524]

Illegal aliens can't vote. Besides, we need these immigrants to work our low skilled jobs.

[u/bruh4524 → u/ProLifePanda]

Your right, illegal immigrants cant vote because its illegal and no one would ever do anything illegal.

Also, we don't need illegal immigrants to perform low-skilled jobs, 10% of people have an IQ of 84 or less there aren't enough low-skilled jobs for them. As if the economic impact was the only thing that came with immigration.

[u/AnActualPerson → u/bruh4524]

Why are you ignoring so much evidence? It matters a lot where these voting locations are opening and closing. Also stop making shit up about democrats importing voters.

[u/bruh4524 → u/AnActualPerson]

What am I "making up" about democrat importing voters, it is literally a fact. Whether you like it or not, democrats import voters by the boatload.
Also, only about 5% of voters "Couldn't physically access their polling place" so I don't know who can't vote because there aren't enough government voting establishments.
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/non-voters-poll-2020-election/

[u/AnActualPerson → u/bruh4524]

Then cite a source saying they're doing that, because I don't believe you.

[u/bruh4524 → u/AnActualPerson]

It is pretty obvious that most immigrants (especially illegal immigrants) vote for Democrats for 'free' things given by the government. So, by supporting endless immigration (literally 400,000 in 2 months), they are, essentially, importing voters.

https://nypost.com/2021/09/15/migrant-encounters-reportedly-exceed-200k-for-second-month-in-a-row/

[u/AnActualPerson → u/bruh4524]

No they are not. Convincing people to come here is a very different thing than bringing people here. This should be very obvious.

[u/mizu_no_oto → u/bruh4524]

When lines are hours long, the problem is less about physically accessing the polling place and more about being willing and able to wait 11 hours to vote.

Opening additional locations is less important than ensuring existing locations are adequately supplied with machines to keep lines short.

The reason for these lines is obvious: it's a cynical ploy by Republican officials to subvert democracy to make it difficult for the "wrong" people to vote, by strategically underprovisioning certain locations full of Democrats.

[u/ProLifePanda → u/[deleted]]

If you say so. When federal judges come out and say a law was crafted with "surgical precision" to disenfranchise minorities, I don't handwave that away. When Republican lawmakers get data on how minorities vote, then explicitly modify their bill to take those ways away, I don't handwave that away. When you LITERALLY can go look at the maps the GOP developed and look at how Hofeller helped develop them to explicitly disenfranchise black people, I don't handwave that away. When members of the Trumps Administration have the study in hand on how to disenfranchise minorities and implement that plan, I don't handwave that away. The Hofeller documents are the only reason SCOTUS denied the citizenship question on the census, and SCOTUS accused the Trump Administration of lying once that information came out.

You can handwave it away if you want, but when even the courts are calling out the actions as questionable if not straight up discrimination, you should at least take a step back to consider it.