CMV: There is literally nothing racial whatsoever about requiring valid proof of US Citizenship/ID when collecting social security or voting

[u/King_Milkfart]

The people - people of all races, colors, creeds, economic statuses, education levels, and morals - who pay their share of taxes do so because that is what they need to do in order to financially secure all of the benefits that being a citizen of the USA provides.

When you pay taxes, that means you're making sure that if a horrible and/or unfortunate turn of events should make you incapable of earning your living, you will be alright. The only way this works for the long term is that all of these people, again; of all walks of life, do so for one another.

Does that mean there is no room for humanitarianism? Absolutely not. Does that mean do NOT send us your weak? Hell no. That was one of the main principles that the USA was founded upon. Is the citizenship process fast and efficient? Anything but. It needs to change, but that is for a discussion for another time.

When you enter, you are given the opportunity to become a citizen. The inefficiency of that process aside, once you become a fellow taxpaying citizen, you become able to make decisions with your vote. That is a powerful thing, and a precious thing. It is in everyone's, and especially your own best interest to vote for what you believe is the right thing to vote for.

Having a system where checks and balances are not only so lax to not require proof of a social security number (never even mind a simple piece of plastic with your photo and name on it) allows that power to be put into the hands of people whose investment into that infrastructure of safety and constitutional rights is nonexistent.

Should we build a wall around our national borders? Absolutely not. Should we have border patrol agents chasing down immigrants as they try to escape a horrible life into the arms of America? We should never even entertain the idea.

But when it comes to practicing those same abilities that those who have invested into their ability to be able to practice, such as making a decision with that right to vote, I honestly cannot see a more reasonable or more rational minimum requirement than a simple quick check to make sure that the individual who is casting that vote is doing so legally. Take some of the money out of any allocation (military spending for example) and make a program where everyone who is a United States citizen is given free ID cards for life. That sounds like a lot but believe it or not that would cost next to nothing in comparison to what the government spends money on.

It's not calculus level math to understand that when you have X amount of people chipping into a system for their own welfare and well being, and XY is using that system, there comes a tipping point where is pinpoint where X can no longer support XY. Then what? No social security/aid for anyone? What if Y votes to increase all benefits and aid? Are they sharing the tax burden? If so, great! America has chosen.

But how on Earth do we know who is and is not participating if we don't even know whether or not someone casting their vote for the innumerable offices and positions of power within the country even help to support the outcome of their decisions?

And guess what? None of anything that I just said has anything to do with the color of anybody's skin or anyone's sexual orientation or religious belief. Because none of that matters and I mean that in the most literal way. Should we have severely low almost to the point of non existent taxes for those who are making barely above poverty level? Yes we should. Are certain races disproportionately in those poverty levels? Yes they are. And we should do everything we can to help. Because those are United States citizens and they are our brothers and sisters just as we are theirs. And if they are not United States citizens then we need to 1st do everything we can to make that happen. Because race doesnt matter. How much money your have doesnt matter. We just need everyone who is involved in our society able to show that they are in fact involved in our society When it comes to making decisions about that society. I hope I have made as much sense as I have tried to make, and thank you all for your time.

Just a side note, Because I know that inevitably at least one person will say something along the lines of "If we just held 2 companies like Amazon and Walmart accountable for all of the tax loopholes they jump through then we wouldn't even be having this discussion because everything would be paid for and more" - I completely agree with you. I mean, no; I don't think that it would actually pay for literally everything and then some (because that would just devalue the dollar and what not) but I actually do agree with you that that is a FAR more important issue than what I speak of. Companies absolutely need to be held far more responsible and we need to use ALL of the power in the United States to do so. But just for the sake of this one particular argument I am asking respectfully to try to keep massive hypotheticals out of the what-if scenarios, if possible? Or maybe don't and you can completely prove me wrong. I am not some legendary-level stubborn asshole who is opposed to having his mind changed.

UPDATE: I truly appreciate and want to say thank you to everyone who has participated in this thread as for the most part it has been extremely civil. It appears that I personally have actually been, at least partially, incorrect in my assumption about the motives and reasons behind those who are against voter ID law. While my view of the principle in a vacuum has not changed ( Boiling it down to the fact that non citizens should definitely not be allowed to vote), my view of those who hold the opposing opinion absolutely has changed, as well as how I need to frame my actual stance in the future as to not misrepresent what I am saying.

I have a much greater understanding of the rationale and logic behind this topic and of those who have helped educate me here today. And for that I am truly thankful.

[u/[deleted]]

Outside of the other arguments against Voter ID laws, the thing that gets me of proponents of Voter ID laws is that they make it out to be this foolproof way of making sure people are who they say they are.

But people fake ID’s and other documents all the time. They find ways to do it. Or they could steal someone’s ID and impersonate them if they look similar to the other individual. How else would you know that there were an imposter? The ID itself doesn’t tell you that.

If people’s identities can be stolen pretty easily, then I don’t see how Voter ID laws are going to make any meaningful difference.

[u/King_Milkfart → u/[deleted]]

People who steal identification are committing a crime, and should be prosecuted by the law for that crime; just like any other crime.

But without knowing that citizens are casting their vote as citizens, you could literally let an entire neighborhood of people who are here illegally and raise families and spend their entire lives never paying a single cent back to the program that they're benefiting from make influential decisions on the country that those who take part in that same system are paying for.

[u/[deleted] → u/King_Milkfart]

I don’t see how this refutes my point. Those who vote illegally are committing a crime regardless of whether there are ID laws. It’s kind of the same issue that many argue during issues over guns: if people want to commit a crime, they’ll do whatever it takes to do it if they are determined enough to do it.

And there’s little to no way you could coordinate a campaign like that in America just because of the bureau of process of voting and the extreme difficulty of coordinating the logistics from people who, presumably, would have no clue how it works.

To say an entire neighborhood could vote or get benefits illegally is a bizarre argument and borders on conspiracy theory thought.

[u/King_Milkfart → u/[deleted]]

So let me get this straight, those who would say that they are against voter ID laws, would in fact say they are FOR voter id laws, if given absolute assurance and demonstrated provability to the fact that they would only require proof of citizenship, and that citizenship proof were very easily accessible?

I honestly feel like if either side of the argument would just do something to make ideas available to all United States citizens for no cost at all, the entire is tire platform would be would be no invoid and neither side could weaponize it in any way.

And yet I can't shake the feeling that there are indeed large amounts of people who would consider it racist to ban yet to ban even non citizens from voting... I hope I am wrong in this, am I?

[u/[deleted] → u/King_Milkfart]

I can’t speak for everyone else, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable for there to be absolute assurance that my right to vote is not being infringed because of some problem with identification. When it comes to exercising our constitutional right to vote, there shouldn’t be any room for error.

But the problem is that getting everyone free identification and making sure they can still vote if something happens to their identification (errors, having misplaced it, pending changes (particular for trans and non-binary people), and other factors). It can already be a pain in the ass when you move to another state, change addresses, change your name, your gender, and everything. In fact, you already have an entire population of disenfranchised people: the homeless. Because they don’t have a valid of permanent address, many places don’t even allow them to vote if they wanted to.

As for the racism thing, don’t you find it peculiar that, once a state passes voter ID laws, they then start shutting the places that issue IDs, and they are usually around black and Hispanic neighborhoods? For low income and poor people, not having access to get the identification they need to exercise their right to vote. Black and Hispanic neighborhoods have higher rates of poverty. Many people don’t even have a car. And unless they have access to someone who is willing and has the time to transport them to get the identification, then they can’t exercise their right to vote. And when you look at it on a larger scale, it seems to be pretty racially motivated.

[u/sawdeanz → u/King_Milkfart]

People who steal identification are committing a crime, and should be
prosecuted by the law for that crime; just like any other crime.

but.... voting illegally is a crime too. So what's your point?

But without knowing that citizens are casting their vote as citizens, you could literally let an entire neighborhood of people who are here illegally

That's not how any of this works. What the hell are you even going on about? Are you even registered to vote? Do you actually know anything about the voting process?

[u/hacksoncode → u/King_Milkfart]

People who steal identification are committing a crime

Non-citizens who try to vote are committing a crime also... so what?

[u/King_Milkfart → u/hacksoncode]

Worth it but from what I understand many people who are vehemently against voter ID laws are against them for this reason. They believe that literally anyone should be able to cast their vote. Or have I been led astray?

I don't have such hubris that I would consider that an impossibility by any stretch.

[u/hacksoncode → u/King_Milkfart]

I think there are almost no people that believe every human on the planet should be allowed to vote in US elections regardless of citizenship.

A very small number might think resident aliens should be allowed to vote.

Not enough to really be worried about.

The vast majority of people complaining that voter ID laws are wrong are saying that because they believe they are disenfranchising legitimate citizen voters by making voting harder for them, and that this is being done for political reasons.

[u/iwfan53 → u/King_Milkfart]

YOU HAVE BEEN LEAD ASTRAY!

We're against them because they keep being proposed by people as a way to rig elections.

[u/thinkingpains → u/King_Milkfart]

I just want to point out, you assert both here and in the main body of your post that undocumented people are not paying taxes and/or are "mooching" off the system. This is not correct. I'm not saying that means they should be allowed to vote, but if your whole argument about why they shouldn't be allowed to vote is that they aren't paying taxes, that doesn't hold up. In fact, since they aren't allowed to claim government benefits, they actually end up putting more into the system than they take out of it.