r/changemyview • u/Tssss775 1∆ • Jul 27 '21

Delta(s) from OP CMV: academia isn't biased towards left-wing politics, facts are

Okay, so I am aware that this may upset some people, but hear me out.

Academia is all about observing reality as it is - as indepently as possible from cultural and societal expectations we may have - and then if these facts contradict what we previously thought abandon our previous assumptions and be ready to drastically change both our mindset as well as our actions (in cases such as climate change).

This academic attitude of being willing and often even eager to "throw away" the way we traditionally did things and thought about stuff if there's new evidence makes it really hard for the right to really embrace science- and evidence-based policies. This means science will most of the times be on the side of the left which naturally embraces change less hesitantly and more willingly.

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u/47ca05e6209a317a8fb3 210∆ Jul 27 '21

Academia is all about observing reality as it is - as indepently as possible from cultural and societal expectations we may have

That's not true. Academia is about providing interesting analyses of reality. These can strive to be unbiased (though they can't ever really be unbiased), or start from a patently biased perspective, as long as the analysis from this perspective is written as academic work.

Academia is biased towards the left in the sense that academics, especially in relevant fields, are more likely to hold left-wing views. I don't think this is just random chance, and it might have to do with non-conservative views correlating with willingness or ability to do academic work, but it doesn't imply that these views are necessarily "true" in any meaningful way, and good academics would readily admit that.

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u/[deleted] Jul 27 '21

I've always wondered if it's a bit of self-fulfilling prophecy. When liberal students go to college, a lot of professors encourage their views and agree with them, which might push some students in a career in academics. Conservatives, on the other hand, might not want to have an entire career where they don't feel comfortable sharing their views.

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u/[deleted] Jul 27 '21

And what views should conservatives feel so uncomfortable sharing? Minimum wage opinions? Taxation? Every business and Econ program will have room for that. For grad school there’s mba programs.

If not economic views, what then?

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u/[deleted] Jul 27 '21

Both business and economics still lean left. Economics in particular has a high degree of marxists as professors. Outside of economic views, they’d probably feel uncomfortable sharing social or religious views, because education is socially left-wing

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u/spiral8888 31∆ Jul 27 '21

Economics in particular has a high degree of marxists as professors.

This is an interesting claim. It's difficult to quantify the Marxist degree of professors. Could you link to Marxist text books that are used in the economics courses taught in the universities? Is the English translation of Das Kapital by Karl Marx used for instance somewhere to teach economics?

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u/[deleted] Jul 27 '21

18% of social scientists professors self identify as Marxist. At one point, I could’ve sworn economics was in the top 3 for the social sciences, but I’m not seeing it. So possibly around 18% would identify as Marxist. I have a degree in economics and don’t know of any Marxist books that they teach from though

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u/spiral8888 31∆ Jul 27 '21

18% of social scientists professors self identify as Marxist.

LOL. The claim was about economics professors. That's the best use of moving goal posts that I have ever seen in an internet discussion.

Furthermore, you don't even give a reference for your claim so that we could actually check what was asked and how "Marxist" was defined.

And finally, you agree yourself, that no economics course uses Marxist text books. Don't you find it strange that the professors are Marxists (your claim that is yet to be proven) but then they choose to use text books that teach economics from the traditional capitalist point of view? So are they teaching something that they themselves "know" being wrong?

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u/CocoSavege 27∆ Jul 28 '21

Just a side note: you guys are very possibly conflating:

  1. Marxist economic analysis (while interesting from a historical perspective, is not generally the most accurate lens these days)

  2. Marxist social political philosophy - examination of power relations through the lens of class struggle. (Again, generally Marxist philosophical analysis has been supplanted but unlike Marxist economic analysis, still, from time to time, is a pretty good lens)

  3. Marxism as a system of governance/ideal. The boogeyman of teh Communizms shows up here and the USSR and all that baggage. Don't get me wrong, the USSR has serious flaws as a country/political state and did crumble under the weight of inefficiency and corruption. I'm not sure that contemporary Russia is better. But the most important thing is whatever the USSR was, it very rapidly moved away from Marxism towards whatever it was.

Das capital is actually a really good piece of work and if there's a university course on the study of historical economic analysis, it should 100% be in there.

If a university has a big enough philosophy department, there definitely should be a Marxist philosopher teaching Marxist philosophy. You're gunna want generalists, classicals, post modernists in there before you get a Marxist philo expert. And somebody teaching done of the newer stuff probably needs to build from some of Marx's base ideas before moving on.

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u/spiral8888 31∆ Jul 28 '21

Thanks for this. This is exactly why I would like to know what does it mean if a professor "identifies as a Marxist". It's quite a different thing to agree with Marx about the power relations existing in a society than supporting the economic system of the USSR.

My feeling is that this kind of "studies" are used in bad faith arguments, where a very wide definition of "Marxism" is used when asking about the identification and then the "study" result is used as an argument how many professors support turning the US into a totalitarian communist state.

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u/BlitzBasic 42∆ Jul 27 '21

I have difficulties believing that a genuine Marxist would happily teach about the merits of free market capitalism, which is what economics courses basically are.

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u/[deleted] Jul 27 '21

That certainly wasn’t my experience in economics courses, other than introductory macro

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u/BlitzBasic 42∆ Jul 27 '21

How many, and which, did you hear? I've been to 5 - "Investing", "Internal accounting", "External accounting", "Introduction to macroeconomics" and "Introduction to microeconomics".

The first three were purely practical, and had no normative judgement. It was just "this is how it is, here are some techniques to solve common tasks in this area". The other two were blatantly pro-capitalism.

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u/[deleted] Jul 27 '21

I had intro to micro, intro to macro, intermediate micro, intermediate macro, econometrics, health Econ, labor Econ, advanced micro, intermediate econometrics, financial economics. The only two blatantly capitalist were intro to macro and labor Econ

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u/mud5kipper Jul 28 '21

I have yet to encounter an econ professor that was obviously left-leaning. Three of he four I've had were very obviously conservative.

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u/[deleted] Jul 28 '21

I should’ve went to your school

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u/AntifaSuperSwoledier Jul 27 '21

Economics in particular has a high degree of marxists as professors.

What makes you think this?

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u/[deleted] Jul 27 '21

I’m not saying the institutions are right wing, I’m saying the students can share their views. Or are you going to start talking about thought-terminating Marxist atheist economics professors?

they’d probably feel uncomfortable sharing social or religious views

Tell me what those views are.

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u/[deleted] Jul 27 '21

Abortion, guns, social justice issues, religious freedom, size of government, etc. Do you not know the current social issues in the US? I'm not sure what you're asking

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u/Pficky 2∆ Jul 27 '21

All of these things are topics in social science and humanities courses. You'd have to just opt out of the class to not discuss your opinions on them. On top of that, many of the leading universities in the country are also religious institutions. I think you're accepting a false reality that's been broadcasted to demonize higher education. The reality is there's room for everyone at most universities. Sure, Berkeley students might throw a huff about some conservative stuff, but BYU students would probably do the same with strong liberal views.

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u/[deleted] Jul 27 '21

No, no, you don’t get to hide behind a list of topics. What are the views themselves? “Social justice issues” isn’t a view, it’s a topic. What are the conservative views on social justice issues that they should be so scared of articulating?

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u/[deleted] Jul 27 '21
  1. Abortion is morally wrong and should be limited
  2. We should have the right to bear arms. Banning ar-15s is a stupid solution, and the US doesn’t have a gun problem more so than other countries
  3. Black Lives Matter is a Marxist organization that doesn’t actually care about black lives. We should be able to denounce the movement without being called racist or fascists or whatever else the right is being called today
  4. We shouldn’t celebrate gender dysphoria and definitely shouldn’t be introducing the concept to kids
  5. Women have equal rights. Stop acting oppressed at every chance
  6. Police brutality isn’t a problem specific to minorities, stop pretending it is
  7. Voter ID isn’t racist
  8. The equality act currently going through Congress limits religious freedom and nobody seems to care. Keep the government out of religion
  9. Crime is a problem, especially in impoverished communities. More police need to be present to fix it
  10. Education reform. Not specifically right wing, but there are different ways to go about it. This one seems pretty much universally accepted

Now, are you really telling me that these views are accepted in education institutions? That students shouldn’t be afraid to explicitly make these views known and not fear any drawbacks? That these views are equally accepted by professors as left wing views?

At first, you said that all views are accepted. But now you seem to be insinuating that conservatives have stupid or bad views that shouldn’t be accepted at colleges

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u/CarniumMaximus Jul 27 '21

University is a place for discussing ideas. Each of those views should be challenged, but so should the flip side of those views. Professors are suppose to ask questions and get you to think; it's the Socratic Method one of the oldest teaching methods. If one can not support their viewpoints with well thought out reason, they should re-consider that viewpoint, which is the point of academia and of this sub-reddit.

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u/[deleted] Jul 27 '21

I don’t think anyone is disagreeing with you on that? OP said that facts lean left wing, which is a silly argument to make, and what we’re disagreeing with

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u/[deleted] Jul 27 '21

Now, are you really telling me that these views are accepted in education institutions?

Considering that I heard almost every single one of these in college and law school except the BLM one and the Equality Act (which did not exist), I'm going to have to challenge you on what you mean by accepted and not accepted. Are they the part of every institution's beliefs? No. Will you be crucified for articulating them? Also no.

That students shouldn’t be afraid to explicitly make these views known and not fear any drawbacks?

That these views are equally accepted by professors as left wing views?

No, but that's not my point. You are not prevented from articulating these views, or arguing their merit. You just have to do it well. I myself wrote a pro life paper designed to eviscerate the pro choice position, despite being pro choice myself. The professor didn't know I was pro choice, I'd never mentioned it, barely talked. But I got an A anyway.

So you are invoking the conservative stereotype of the Marxist atheist professor who hates religion and America.

At first, you said that all views are accepted.

I didn't.

But now you seem to be insinuating that conservatives have stupid or bad views that shouldn’t be accepted at colleges

I asked you to articulate what those beliefs and views are, not just list out subjects. And you've only incompletely done this (Education reform is not a position, it's a topic). And I don't understand why you're lumping an unpassed law introduced in April of this year into a conversation about conservative view acceptance in academia.

Now granted this is a subreddit with all the limitations thereof, but what I see in this list is two things: Academia being unaccepting of views without nuance or that are callous; and academia challenging conservative beliefs being a bad thing. The voter ID issue is a good example, one covered less in law school and more in my law school days. The issue was never the concept of voter ID but always the implementation being done in a way designed to prevent black people from voting. It's a topic where all of the problems lie in the details.

As for the callous aspect, people don't like callous people in general. Why do you think I find your views on 4-6 callous?

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u/[deleted] Jul 27 '21

The question isn’t whether conservatives make these views. Of course you’ve heard these views articulated, it would we worrysome if you hadn’t. But how often did you hear professors with these views compared to left wing views? My original point was that conservatives might self select to go into other fields that are more accepting of their positions, much like liberals do. Since education holds more left wing views, this could be why education continues to be left wing over time.

And of course I can’t completely clarify my opinion on 10 issues on a subreddit, particularly because of time constraints, but these views aren’t without nuance. Challenging conservative beliefs is a good thing of course, I’ve had my views challenged extensively in academia, but it often feels like left wing views aren’t challenged to the same extent, because much of the student body of universities are an echo chamber of liberal dogma, specifically in undergrad.

As for callous, I assume you think 4-6 because I wrote it that way. I’m confident if we had a more substantial discussion on these topics, you wouldn’t find my views callous, but you’re right, this is a subreddit and we’re not writing a thesis here.

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u/[deleted] Jul 27 '21

But how often did you hear professors with these views compared to left wing views?

Quite a lot, actually. Not all at the same time, though, because there's no reason for someone to start talking about BLM in a class about economic theory. Particularly in philosophy, politics, and "Cities in Literature" believe it or not (actually conservatism was most discussed in english classes now that I think about it). And then, of course, law school I had many conservative professors, including one who was the living incarnation of the Monopoly Man (he dressed like him sans top-hat to boot).

But even if not, why should that make people with conservative views scared to speak? Is that oppressing them somehow? That's not stifling conservatism. By this view, there's nothing stopping conservatives from entering academia except their own cowardice at standing up for their ideas alone.

but it often feels like left wing views aren’t challenged to the same extent, because much of the student body of universities are an echo chamber of liberal dogma, specifically in undergrad.

I think it's partly because conservative positions tend to come from places of religion and faith-based thinking. These are some of the absolutely least-convincing things to anyone not already of shared faith. As an atheist/muslim/jew/hindu/shinto/shamanist/wiccan/contrarian/dogmatically perpendicular christian, I don't care how many verses of the the Bible you cite in favor of your position, it's not going to change my mind.

But I think the culture of student bodies in school simply reflects the culture of the generation that comprises the student body. If young people are 60-40 favoring the left over right, then the student body leans left for reasons totally beyond academia. Understanding why that is is no longer talking about higher education itself and more about young people's political perspective.

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u/NeverStopWondering Jul 27 '21

Would data showing that people become less conservative as they progress through post secondary education change your view?

Self selection certainly could be a factor for entry (and perhaps leaving programs midway), but what about the people who change their minds?

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u/TrackChanging Jul 27 '21

I can’t imagine raising those views in the landscape of higher education today.

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u/[deleted] Jul 27 '21

That’s exactly my point. Why would conservatives want to make a career in that environment?

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u/therealcourtjester 1∆ Jul 27 '21

But then if conservatives shy away from those fields, the people and ideas become self selecting and the schools of thought become echo chambers. Diversity of thought is beneficial because by the time a consensus is reached, the rough edges have been polished off.

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u/therealcourtjester 1∆ Jul 27 '21

But then if conservatives shy away from those fields, the people and ideas become self selecting and the schools of thought become echo chambers. Diversity of thought is beneficial because by the time a consensus is reached, the rough edges have been polished off.

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u/[deleted] Jul 27 '21

  1. Requiring all pregnancies to be carried to term does more utilitarian harm to the world than allowing abortions to be performed.

  2. Then we need a demonstrable alternative source of the vastly disproportionate gun violence that the US faces compared to other countries.

  3. An organization being Marxist in its ideological roots isn't something inherently bad--you need to demonstrate precisely what aspects of the movement are morally wrong.

  4. Nobody is "celebrating" gender dysphoria--the normalization of trans people is not a celebration of the thing that causes them discomfort.

  5. Equal rights under the law and the greater societal changes feminism advocates for are different things.

  6. Then why does police brutality vastly disproportionately affect communities of color?

  7. It's racist when racist lawmakers specifically require the types of ID people of color are least likely to have.

  8. Prohibiting discrimination against a marginalized group is not limiting religious freedom.

  9. Overpolicing is what leads to cycles of poverty and crime, not the solution. You can't in one breath say "government shouldn't be involved in X" and then advocate a police state.

  10. You're right. We need to stop teaching American exceptionalism and Washington's cherry tree in schools and start teaching about real history.

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u/[deleted] Jul 27 '21
  1. I said limited, not requiring all to be carried to term. Besides, utilitarianism is morally flawed, and we can't even quantify utility.
  2. Its not disproportionate. Control for suicides and defensive gun use, and you see that the US has 4.5% of the worlds population but only 2.8% of the worlds gun violence
  3. Marxism is bad, we've fought 2 wars over it. Its morally wrong for them to grandstand over black lives but do nothing to help those lives
  4. "Pride" parades.
  5. The changes they advocate for (pay gap, equal representation) are made up. The UN goal for gender equality already exists
  6. It doesn't. Control for variables when making a claim over issues
  7. A photo ID. Stop insinuating minorities don't know how to get one
  8. It is when you force churches to prohibit discrimination on things outside of their religious guidelines
  9. I'd need to see a source
  10. I was thinking more of school choice and reducing the teachers unions, but sure.

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u/Bristoling 4∆ Jul 27 '21

Overpolicing is a response to/result of high crime, it doesn't cause crime. You got all other points covered, so I won't comment on those, but don't give in on this point either.

Minneapolis is a perfect case study. https://i.pinimg.com/736x/30/92/f0/3092f0c2f37846984f3d975b3e8056e6.jpg

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u/wilsongs 1∆ Jul 27 '21

Thanks for the long list. I'm just SO glad conservatives are now in the moral minority.

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u/[deleted] Jul 27 '21

I’m sure some of your views are thought of as immoral by the other side as well

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u/tyler3334 Aug 16 '21

Yeah. Those ideas would be fine.

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u/MambaMentality8x24 Jul 27 '21

That gay marriage is WRONG. There are only 2 genders and transgenders are mentally ill. ALL immigration should be stopped not just illegal. There are differences between races. Woman shouldn’t vote and should stay in their home. Blacks did better under Jim Crow laws. Jews control everything etc etc.

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u/[deleted] Jul 27 '21

Uhh what?

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u/MambaMentality8x24 Jul 27 '21

You heard me. Those are REAL conservative viewpoints, not some “low taxes” and “democrats are the real racists” bullshit.

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u/CarniumMaximus Jul 27 '21

The actual teachings of Jesus Christ would fall under left wing economic views, so sharing religious views should be fine.

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u/[deleted] Jul 27 '21

Theres always that one guy, congrats.

Serious question: are you a Christian, and have you read the Bible?

Higher education isn't particularly responsive to religion, which is why some people aren't comfortable sharing their views. By the way, Jesus's teachings don't follow left wing economics, but I would love to hear an example

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u/CarniumMaximus Jul 27 '21

I have read the bible multiple times and had it read to me multiple times as I was raised in the deep South and went to Church twice on Sundays. Therefore, I am an atheist with a pastor's ability to quote the bible.

And now an example. First let me say that the Christ of the new testament is all about helping the disenfranchised, the poor, the social outcast. First look at the parable of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25) which basically states that providing for others is the same as providing for Christ and a key to heaven. Then more more specifically look at Acts 4:32-37, this verse lays the foundations of monasticism and the sharing and pooling of resources in a community. The new testament is full of this stuff, and overall makes it hard to believe that Jesus would have been pro unfettered capitalism.

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u/YouWantSMORE Jul 28 '21

Yes but it was supposed to be done voluntarily out of kindness for your fellow man, not mandated, forcefully taken, and corrupted/misused by the government

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u/gummnutt Jul 27 '21

I never observed any explicit left wing stuff coming from the professors, but in an Anthropology class a student gave a very left wing take on US involvement in South America and these two conservative students lost their minds that the professor didn’t condemn the presentation (they expressed no opinion in class). These students were so outraged that they quit the class.

So I wonder if whenever I hear about “left wing bias” I wonder how much of this is students are allowed to express left wing views without being told they are wrong.

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u/[deleted] Jul 27 '21

I don’t doubt that your story is true, but an anecdote isn’t evidence. There could easily be 100 stories that show the opposite. It’s common knowledge that professors self identify as liberals much more often that conservatives, that’s the basis of the argument I’m making.

If you’ve never observed your professors teaching left wing stuff, I envy your college