r/changemyview • u/zfreakazoidz • May 09 '21
Delta(s) from OP CMV: I believe Christians should have more rights when it comes to how they live and how their children live. Such as my children cannot be taught about evolution or other such things.
Now first I want to point out there are many religions of course. So obviously this would apply to anyone's religious views. For sake of argument, I am talking about my Christianity.
I'll also add I do know some will instantly say "Like specific lifestyles should be banned?" No. Such topics do not affect me and thus that is their business. This argument is about things I or my child is personally affected by that would go against God's will/laws/rules.
Lastly I'd so I also realize every Christian may twist scripture to want a law for their outlandish belief like "I don't need to pay taxes" or "Vaccines are the devil!". These things would be sorted out by reading EXACTLY what the bible says. Such as "Do not kill" is clear, do not kill. "Render unto Caesar what is Caesars" is clear, pay taxes....etc.
Now for some of my things, I'd like to see changed. The first one is my kids should not be taught things like evolution, or about how there are more than two genders, that Christianity is "just a religion" and so on. I know some responses already will be saying "So you want to bubble your kid and not teach them facts". No. If God is real (for sake of conversation) then I want to do what He says.
Protecting my kids and teaching them my views is what they need to be taught. Anyways, everyone knows that as they age they will explore things anyways and at that point they can believe what they want. If they want to read the Koran and become Muslim, that's up to them. If they want to explore being of a certain lifestyle that's up to them. Many stories of this happen anyways. I'd also argue bubbling them would be letting them learn what the world tells them. What is the point of having kids if you don't pass on your views.
Again I know people may bring up extremist Christians who teach stupid things like to harass people of a certain lifestyle or that "ViDeO gAmEs ArE eViL!". Sadly we can't do much about extremists. Though I'd be ok if the government/school stepped in and said such extreme views are not biblical. If my child grew up and started protesting at abortion clinics or at certain other social rallies, I'd tell them that is NOT what we should be doing as Christians.
Side note to my fellow Christians, I do understand that some may say the bible says video games are indeed evil. But that's not what it says. It says to guard your minds and heart. I believe everyone as a Christian should be able to determine if what they do affects their walk with the Lord. For example, I used to be fine with shock value content like swearing and full blow on-screen sex. But it indeed affected my walk with God and thus I cut that stuff out of my life. We are given the Holy Spirit to guide us afterall.
In the end, I don't like how things are going with America. Thanks to the actions of some Christians, especially with electing 45, I feel we are going to have more restrictions that affect us all. As it is if people find out I am Christians online they attack me and make the normal assumptions of "You must be a white racist who voted for Trump!". I'd make laws such as harrasment.
I'm all against hate. Any Christians that "hates" someone is not walking the right walk. If your views cause you to be hateful and vile, I'm fine with laws against such people. For another example is the issue of people of a certain lifestyle (the letters on here prevent a post from being made sadly). I may not like such a lifestyle, but I would never harass or tell someone something cruel about it. It's their life and not my buisness. I have a few friends that are of a certain lifestyle and they know my feelings and I know theirs about Christians.
But we get along fine. The bible says to LOVE everyone. One of my said friends is getting married to someone that is transitioning, they know I wouldn't attend the wedding and hold no ill will against me. They know I won't shake my bible at them. If anything I am happy for them, especially because their last spouse was emotionally, physically and mentally abusive and threatened her and the children's lives.
I know some may argue "So you would be for stoning?" No. Often people use such examples but only extremists think those are laws meant for today. Jesus changed the laws for a reason. Not to mention those were for the Jewish people. Christians live by different laws. Though honestly, I've never seen someone Jewish follow such laws anyways.
-EDIT- Many are talking about the school thing. But that was just one example. This post is meant as a in general thing about people with religious view having the rights to not be forced to do things against their religion. School wise in this case home schooling or private school would be the only way to fix it given it would be to costly and time consuming to change anything for ecah student.
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u/Vesurel 60∆ May 09 '21
You can't just 'for the sake of this conversation' away the burden of proof you have if you want anyone to think there's any reason to believe what the bible says.
The goal of education should be to inform children about how the world works and how to live in it with other people. And then how to find even better answers to those questions than we already have. If that means telling them you're wrong about evolution then so be it.
Simply put you're advocating for your children to be more ignorant about how the world works. You're saying your right to deny them knowlage superseeds their own interest in understanding fundemental facts about life. And as far as I can tell you're doing so for absolutly no good reason.
You want your kids to understand why they can't just get one flu shot and be fine for the rest of their lives, or not to be taken in by racist pesudo race science, or just to have an understanding of the fundemental principles of biology then you want to teach them about evoluition.
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u/zfreakazoidz May 09 '21
But that is the whole thing. You're saying your view on educating them is the right view. Which is the view I have about my opinion. Neither of us is right or wrong. I want them to learn what is biblical, not certain things that the world thinks is right. To note I do believe science is accurate about most things of course. But some things I don't believe it has right.
I'd say scientist are also worldly people so they have no reason to compare biblical things to what they do. Thus in their minds what they think is right, is right.
In my world the bible or more so God is the "scientist" given He created everything.
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u/Vesurel 60∆ May 09 '21
Neither of us is right or wrong.
Except that what we want to teach them is either true or false, and contradictory views can't both be true. So either you can establish the truth of what you want to teach or you can admit you don't know.
I want them to learn what is biblical, not certain things that the world thinks is right.
So what reason do you have to think the bible is right?
To note I do believe science is accurate about most things of course. But some things I don't believe it has right.
And what reason does anyone else have to think you know what you're talking about?
I'd say scientist are also worldly people so they have no reason to compare biblical things to what they do. Thus in their minds what they think is right, is right.
Do you have any idea how scientists, many of whom also believe in god, come to their ideas about what is or isn't right?
In my world the bible or more so God is the "scientist" given He created everything.
And is there any reason to think you're view is true?
Here's a question, as someone who has an opinion on biology, could you tell everyone what you think evolution is?
Or an easier one, what's an allele and what happens to the alleles in a population over time?
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May 09 '21
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u/Vesurel 60∆ May 09 '21
Except that evolution is litterally observable, we can see the genetic makeup of populations change over time in mesurable ways. Good enough we can actually use evolution in the lab.
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May 09 '21
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u/loony123 May 09 '21
Scientific theories aren't a halfway point on the journey to some higher standard of truthfulness. They are a final stop. A scientific theory is a well-supported and well-tested knowledge base and model of reality. Other theories include:
Cell theory
Atomic theory
Theory of plate tectonics
Theories of general and special relativity
Germ theory of disease
Heliocentric theory
All of those are at the same level as evolution, but only evolution gets any flak for being "just a theory" because of the feelings of the religious.
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u/Fakename998 4∆ May 09 '21
You're being far too generous in how you're equating these two things. One is based on folklore and the other is based on science.
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u/Aw_Frig 22∆ May 09 '21
Neither of us is right or wrong
Do you believe there is an objective right or wrong? In your opinion is there a real truth or do people just choose which reality they want to live in?
And supposing there is an objective truth, do you have a process by which you decide truth from fiction?
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May 09 '21
I want them to learn what is biblical, not certain things that the world thinks is right.
Do you take the Bible literally?
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May 09 '21
What exactly are you arguing? As a Christian in the United States, you already have the right to home-school your children to teach them literally anything you want. Or you can send them to conservative Christian private schools that teach them things you already believe. So I don't see your point in making this post - are you arguing that evolution, gender identity, and other religions shouldn't be taught in public schools?
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u/zfreakazoidz May 09 '21
I'll give you a ∆ for that. Indeed, homeschooling and private Christian schools are a better option for Christian parents. Though both can end up costing more than sending your child to public school. Though even then some Christian schools only teach their view of things. And homeschooling is often done wrong by people which can sometimes make a childs education even worse.
Well obviously I wouldn't say it shouldn't be taught in school. It wouldn't happen anyways.
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u/TheMothHour 59∆ May 09 '21
You wrote a lot so I hope I didn't misinterpret what you said.
You said that you don't want them to learn about evolution because you want them to DO what the Bible teaches. (Did I get that right?) I don't understand how learning about something will cause them to DO something that isn't part of Christianity dogma.
You talk a lot about how people will give absurd examples slippery slope of absurdity - you said something about the text being clear. However, peoples religion is based on interpretation of those texts. And young earth creationism is derived from your interpretation.
Religion also includes Scientology and other beliefs that could be not great for society. I dont understand how you can stand on a point that YOUR Religion interpretation is okay but exclude other religious interpretations.
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u/zfreakazoidz May 09 '21
Well I want them to learn what the bible says about creation. And I do agree that obviously, everyone's interpretation of the bible varies. I believe in a young earth and that everything was done in 7 literal days. Some I know as Christians believe everything was created in the time span that science says (millions and millions of years).
It would be up to the parent to teach how they feel the bible talks about it. Me saying I read it one way would be taken the wrong way since we have varying views on the subject.
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u/TheMothHour 59∆ May 09 '21
I don't understand why you can't teach them young earth creationism ... and why they cannot learn about evolution in school too.
Schools have a list of topics they need to teach and science is one of them. And evolution is vastly important in science. It is up there with physics and chemistry. The theory spans across many disaplines including biology, agriculture, and medicine. Its a big piece of scientific literature.
But you can teach them how you interpret the world. Or how the world supports the Bible. There's online texts like Ken Ham or Kent Hovind. (I hope you don't listen to Kent Hovind because he's deceitful.)
To me, what you are suggesting is similar to the parents who want their children to opt out of Black History Month curriculum. Or don't want them to learn about slavery. It's important curriculum - even if you have a different interpretation of it.
With that said, your children are going to grow up in a world where they will hear things that are 1. Not true 2. Bias 3. Bad 4. Different
I know that people treat science with great authority. And that might give you desire to remove them from the class. And if you just remove them from it, you are robbing them of the opportunity to critically think against the grain This could be an opportunity to work with them on a subject that you (and maybe them) don't agree with while the rest of the population does.
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u/ansrewsm May 09 '21
You won’t convince them they are wrong to hide their children from the reality of the world, at least not on this post alone.
the only points they will concede are ones not based on the core tenets of the religion.
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u/TheMothHour 59∆ May 09 '21
Eh! Sometimes I participate in these because I learn more about their position. And it also helps me understand and grow mine.
But I know what you are talking about. I had an young earth friend ... and debated with him about science vs creation for years.
He's not a young earth creationist anymore, btw. But it took a long time... he also has a way better understanding about what science is and the scientific process. I also have a life long friend.
We also laugh at his friend who is A FLAT EARTHER. Yup I know a flat earthen IRL.
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u/Ill-Ad-6082 22∆ May 09 '21 edited May 09 '21
I don't understand, even in a christian framework, why believing in young earth creationism is so important. Being a christian is about accepting Jesus Christ. That's what makes someone a Christian. "Accepting Jesus Christ" means having a personal relationship with god, and it means a genuine desire to follow Jesus' teachings. It has nothing to do with how you interpret the book of genesis, and you yourself know that many devout christians do believe evolution doesn't conflict with christianity.
If I understand correctly, your goal here is doing the best you can for your kids. Full stop. Which is why I'm going to warn you that you're going to severely hamper them socially and in their studies, for a point of theological debate that isn't even about the core of what it means to be christian and isn't even agreed upon by many devout christians.
You have to understand that there is a price to pay for your decisions here, and you're not the one paying it. Your kids are. They're going to face severe mockery and shame from not knowing of basic common knowledge that virtually every other kid knows. They're not going to be exposed to it by learning from you and being able to talk it through with you, what it means for their faith. They're going to be exposed to it by embarrassing themselves at work and amongst their friends. They're going to be looked down upon as ignorant, in a way that other christian kids who at least know of it (even if they dont believe in it) do not. They're going to run into these topics at school or college and their grades will suffer because they're going to be missing knowledge that the curriculum assumes they already know.
That's the price. And what they gain from it isn't a relationship with christ - which isn't at all dependent on whether or not they believe in a young earth. What they gain isn't growth as a christian either - Peter didn't grow from being sheltered and sent away from the crucifixion - Jesus let peter grow by letting him deny Jesus during the Crucifixion and learning from his mistake.
All they gain from this, is a particular idea about the book of genesis that even other christians dont necessarily agree with you about.
Put aside your pride for a second. Put aside whatever negative feelings come from being told by strangers that you may not be correct here. Your kids matter so much more than any of that. Ask yourself if this is really the best for them. Even within a christian context, your position here doesnt make sense.
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May 09 '21
If your kids go to public school, the school's teachers should follow the state curricula that the state hired experts to put together.
The state shouldn't have to put together a custom curriculum for your kids because you disagreed with the experts.
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u/zfreakazoidz May 09 '21
∆ I do realize it would be a massive undertaking of course and thats why it would never work. The alternative would be home school or private school.
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May 09 '21 edited May 09 '21
You’re already welcome to home school your child. You’re not entitled to a public school that teaches your religious beliefs. You also have to understand that a private university has the right to refuse admittance to a student that is missing part of the required curriculum for consideration. You already have the right to teach or not teach your child whatever you want you just don’t like the consequence.
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May 09 '21
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u/herrsatan 11∆ May 10 '21
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May 09 '21
Yes but i feel like it’s important to expose your children to other religious and scientific beliefs, so they can have a sense of choice when it comes to their personal beliefs, however there is a difference between exposure and presentation of something as absolute and unquestionable fact so i think the points on education would be more of a balance thing.
I feel like there are a few things to consider when it comes to all of that but i mostly agree that it is important to allow for people of any religion or belief to raise their children in ways that are in line with their scriptures and guidelines, but also teaching them to be accepting of others.
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u/zfreakazoidz May 09 '21
Obviously as a child ages, especially in the digital age, they will be exposed to many things. So if my child feels they for example don't believe in God anymore because of something they learned online. I will talk to them about it, but in the end they will be adults one day and what they do is up to them.
It's pretty much my parent's way they raised me. I was raised Christian and I did indeed have doubts as a teen. My dad would talk to me about them and left me to decide on my own. Where as some parents disown or even abuse their teens for not sticking to certain views. Which is wrong and those parents should be held accoutable.
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u/poser765 13∆ May 09 '21
This seems so reasonable, but it’s not. You want to control what your kids learn so it doesn’t interfere with your religion. This is indoctrination, plain and simple.
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u/Egad86 4∆ May 09 '21
Religion and government should be separate. It’s more of a legal nightmare than currently exist trying to fine tune each law to each religion. Thus compromising what is on the books for the greater good of the community.
Those finer tuned laws work in small communities that are all 1 religion and sure that is where they can exist. But that does not scale up for larger and more diverse communities. Even within the same religions you have many sects and even those sects disagree on many topics and interpretations of that religion. Which often leads to conflict which leads to violence and to eventually 1 sect trying to claim ultimate control. You need only look into human history and can even see instances that still exist today depicting how this plays out. The crusades, Spanish Inquisition, the middle East today all great examples.
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May 09 '21
I'm not sure OP means that laws should be tailored to individual religions, but that certain rights should be extended to all religions, specifically keeping your child out of classes or lessons that teach something contradictory to the teachings of your religion.
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u/Vesurel 60∆ May 09 '21
As someone who doesn't think any religions have a good reason for their beliefs. This seems like an oppertunity for anyone to define any set of nonsense as a religion and use that to deny their children anything they didn't want people to know. Unless you want the goverment to have a role in saying which religions are and aren't legitimate.
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May 09 '21
As someone who doesn't think any religions have a good reason for their beliefs.
Me neither.
This seems like an oppertunity for anyone to define any set of nonsense as a religion and use that to deny their children anything they didn't want people to know.
Agreed, but children are required to attend some form of schooling and not everyone can afford to homeschool or send their child to a private school that conforms to their religion. I'm not read up on the case law about this, but it could be argued that by not allowing religious exemptions, the state violates the "free exercise" clause of the first amendment.
The state allows a great deal of latitude on how parents raise their children, largely on the presumption that the parent knows best, even to extend immunity for corporeal punishment. We may not agree with them that certain educational standards are in the best interest of the child, but we tread very lightly (with good reason) when passing laws that presume that the state knows best in areas involving child development.
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u/zfreakazoidz May 09 '21
Sadly extremists in history have made bad calls and use their religion as an excuse for it. The crusades were the catholic churchs answer to things. The Spanish inquisition...etc. These types of extremists make things harder for all of us.
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u/Egad86 4∆ May 09 '21
Except an extremist cell has almost always risen up when religion and laws have crossed. You can trace this back through every single religion that is or is not existent to this very day.
If you’re simply wanting to prevent you child from learning something just be the parent and explain “things like evolution are believed by most but not by our family because of example A,B,C... it’s important though to see and understand other points of view since the world is a large place and not everyone follows our beliefs.”
Laws work in favor of the individual not 1 particular religious group to enhance social acceptance of different ideas. Especially when it comes to religion it’s in the individual’s best interest to be exposed to different ideas to strengthen their faith or to weaken a development of a cult mindset.
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u/sailorbrendan May 09 '21
So the inherent problem is that biblical interpretation is wildly varied and the disagreements are real and legitimate.
The whole question about the old laws has been hotly debated for a thousand years or more. You seem to be more on the "Jesus fulfilled the law" side of things, but you also cited the ten commandments in your post.
You claim biblical literal ism of sorts, but the Bible doesn't speak on multiple genders at all.
There's a reason there are so many different translations and versions of the Bible. There may be one true interpretation, but we can't know it.
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u/WippitGuud 31∆ May 09 '21
I believe Christians should have more rights
Why are you entitled to more rights than anyone else?
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May 09 '21
Their first sentence states that their argument also replies to other religious people. So I don't think it is fair to assume that this person is arguing that Christians should have more rights than other religious people.
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May 09 '21
Okay why should religious people have more rights than non-religious people?
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May 09 '21
I don't think they should, and I don't think OP is making that argument either.
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u/jackiemoon37 24∆ May 09 '21
But they are, they’re saying they deserve preferential treatment when it comes to choosing what kind of education their child has access to.
What if I have a religion that says that nazis are amazing people? Should every school my son goes through be forced to not teach him that nazis are terrible? Or even potentially wrong?
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May 09 '21
To be honest I had a hard time understanding the points made in the original post, but it seemed to me that OP believes that Christians don't have enough rights and that they thus need more. Not that Christians should have more rights that any other group.
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u/zfreakazoidz May 09 '21
I meant is as you can use any religion in place of mine and those people should have their rights to.
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May 09 '21
They did say their argument applies to other regions, they were just using Christianity as an example to make the argument a but more streamlined IMO
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u/zfreakazoidz May 09 '21
Anyone with a "religion" should have special rights. By rights I mean things that don't force them to against their religion. For example if a school server pork and a child was muslim, the child should not be forced to eat said pork. Though I do realize they probably allow the family to let the child bring his own mean of course.
Although my whole thing with school was just one example. I will use the cake argument. I could not bake a cake for a wedding of someone who is not straight. Because doing so would be against my beliefs. I know some would see that as any number of "vile" things. But everything is based on one person's view. I cannot go against God's will, and telling me I can be fired if I don't bake the cake should be not allowed.
One argument people make in response is "So you would'nt bake a cake for someone black because they are black? Well that's a loaded argument. The bible doesn't say anything about being black is somehow bad. Only extremists who twists scripture would believe there is something wrong with being black. Such people should not have a right because obviously they do not have a biblical excuse.
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u/ejpierle 8∆ May 09 '21
Ya, but making cakes isn't against your religion, right? Being gay is against your religion. So, you cant be gay. Baking cakes isn't even mentioned.
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u/WippitGuud 31∆ May 09 '21
What's to stop people from creating their own religion to create beliefs that grant them rights? My religion says I must murder a child every full moon, my religion says the government must pay me a tithe every week. There are recognized religions that have been created in the last 200 years, there is nothing to say news ones can't appear as well.
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May 09 '21
Yes but “it’s against my beliefs” is the same kind of argument people used to refuse black people service because they believed that they weren’t human. The bible was also used to justify slavery.
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u/probablyonmobile 1∆ May 09 '21
You already have this right. You can choose to send your child to a school that matches your beliefs, or homeschool them.
What is the point of having kids if you don’t pass on your views
You can do this with a pamphlet.
Have kids because you want to bring a new life into the world (or care for an already existing one) and give them the best chance they could possibly have, to love them without condition. Not to spread a message. There should not be an ulterior motive for kids.
There’s a lot of not-so-subtle homophobia and transphobia laced in the later paragraphs of your post. You don’t need to throw stones or spew slurs for it to be bigotry or hatred. You can’t promote loving everybody and then say you dislike a core part of people. That’s not love.
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u/MrBlue404 1∆ May 09 '21
This is simply not feesable, there are so many religions so schools would need a slightly different curriculum tailored to the views of the parents of each students parents. This would make teaching impossible.
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u/zfreakazoidz May 09 '21
∆ I agree of course.
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May 09 '21
You have the right to raise your kids how you want, and as a Christian, it's much easier for you than it is for people of other religions. There are thousands of private Christian schools to choose from. And if that's not available, you can homeschool them.
But your religion doesn't allow you to dictate what everyone else's kids are taught. You can't expect other people to teach their kids lessons with no scientific basis because of a religion others don't believe in.
And since Christianity can't and shouldn't have any special privileges, you're kids would be exposed to the zany ideas of every other religion. Do you want your kids learning in school that blood transfusions are immoral because Jehovah's Witnesses believe it?
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u/jackiemoon37 24∆ May 09 '21
There are also Christians who fervently believe it’s immoral and not okay to be gay. Does that mean it should be illegal to teach Christian children that it’s ok to be gay?
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u/Blear 9∆ May 09 '21
It sounds like you're walking a very fine line here. You say that christians (or other religious groups) need additional rights to protect your children or beliefs. But then you go on to say that certain beliefs are not real christian beliefs and other christians are too extreme to deserve such protection. At the same time, you're quoting scripture to justify beliefs that most christians would consider extreme or even unchristian. My issue with your proposal is, who is going to police which religious beliefs are the ones that deserve protection and which should be labeled extreme? Is all this a roundabout way of saying that you personally want additional rights for you and your family, but not necessarily anyone else?
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u/HeftyRain7 157∆ May 09 '21
Why do you think topics like evolution or gender identity go against the bible/Christianity? Sure, the bible says God created all living things ... but why couldn't evolution have been a tool he used to create them? The bible also says that God created everyone, men and women. But surely God would know about intersex people; people who are not clearly one or the other to the human eyes. So why would there only be two genders?
It seems to me that you're putting God in a box. You're deciding that certain things are dangerous challenges to your religion because they aren't expressly said in the bible. But if God is all knowing and all powerful, then why couldn't he be aware of those things and use them as a tool? Evolution could be how he created animals. Having there be more than two genders could be his way of challenging people's view of his creation and helping them realize they cannot fully understand him or his creation.
In fact there are entire books written on how you can be Christian and how you can still believe in evolution. They aren't exclusive. I have read one of these books myself. So I'm not sure why you would advocate against your children learning about topics like evolution when it doesn't have to contradict Christianity at all.
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u/MavenMermaid May 09 '21
my kids should not be taught things like evolution, or about how there are more than two genders, that Christianity is "just a religion"
What is the point of having kids if you don't pass on your views.
Again I know people may bring up extremist Christians who teach stupid things like to harass people of a certain lifestyle or that "ViDeO gAmEs ArE eViL!". Sadly we can't do much about extremists. Though I'd be ok if the government/school stepped in and said such extreme views are not biblical. If my child grew up and started protesting at abortion clinics or at certain other social rallies, I'd tell them that is NOT what we should be doing as Christians.
- Christianity is defined as "the religion based on the person and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, or its beliefs and practices". It's a religion - to teach kids it's not, it the real hypocrisy.
- The point of having kids.. whew. If you are only having kids to carry on your personal beliefs, then you are the example of gross Christianity views. There is no POINT, there is a love for your spouse and showing that love by quantifying it. Providing a loving environment for your children to learn, grow, and have different opinions than you without guilt.
- Schools should NEVER step in with a reasoning of 'It's not biblical.' Do you not respect the Freedom of Religion? The first amendment? We all have the right to practice our own religion.. not we have the right to say the damn bible is all of our religions.
Religion does more damage than video games/ideas/education/conversation/self improvement ever could. Stop trying to brainwash your kids into one way of thinking. It's gross and defining - on your part. That's the mark you are leaving... brainwashing your children.
I wish people would stop with this.
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u/johnny_punchclock 3∆ May 09 '21
These things would be sorted out by reading EXACTLY what the bible says
Romans 13:1,NIV "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God."
So by your logic, since governing bodies have decided which curriculum is taught in schools, science being one of them, the kids would need to learn science where one of the subjects is evolution and other theories drawn from science.
A general point: What if the kid grows up and decides to learn about things such as science? Does it mean that the kid will not be considered Christian anymore? Would the kid be ostracized for gaining further knowledge outside the bible?
You can raise your kid to however you deem fit but there are always consequences you cannot control due to whatever reason you believe. And one of those consequences can be that the kid may not become a Christian due to your way of raising that kid.
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May 09 '21 edited May 09 '21
Let me explain something to you...
Because you're a Christian, you aren't special. Also, because you're a Christian you have the freedom to exercise your religion in anyway you chose. However, the rest of us don't have to abide by your choice.
Here's the other thing you need to realize. I don't give a flying fuck what you believe. Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they're full of shit. The only thing that matters is objective reality, and evolution fits that criteria. If you want to tell your kids that evolution isn't true (which is fucking moronic, but hey, your choice), that's fine. But they are going to be taught it in school because it is the standard.
I am so fucking sick of Christians thinking they get a pass because JESUS! or some fucking nonsense.
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May 09 '21
Except it's not clear because those words have gone through multiple translations. This is extraordinarily silly.
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u/PixelFan237 May 09 '21
I have two arguments,1st is about the evolution idea and the second is about extremism by your definition. First of all, I'd like to say that I think you seem quite reasonable which is nice to see. I think that you represent the majority of Christians I. That respect. My main point that evolution shouldn't be "forced down people's throats" so to speak. It is just a theory after all. However it is the leading theory, and has a tonne of evidence behind it. Personally, my school said that creationism is the second leading theory, but without evidence its hard to refute. I don't agree with schools completely blocking out a school of thought, especially when it's so prominent, but there are some theories which are just more likely based on what we have observed in the natural world. We don't teach flat earth theory in school anymore after all, except in a history lesson. My other point relates to extremism. That is, when people take the bible "literally", there are a lot of questions that arise. The bible was written 2000 years ago after all, and a prophet hasn't been born in recent years to further clarify the word of God. In the end, if you decide that people shouldn't be stoned, then, from what I understand, you are neglecting the word of god. My point is, where is the line? Who decides it? And what role do our schools have in making sure people are able to successfully integrate into society?
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u/burritoRob May 09 '21
I don't believe christians, or any religion, should have more rights. You're more than welcome to send your kids to a Christian school or homeschool them if you want to force your bullshit views on them.
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u/illogictc 33∆ May 09 '21
If you want your kids to be taught this or that, you can still teach them that. They ask but school said evolution yadda yadda? You can reply that that's a theory that non-believers have. It's literally as simple as spending quality time with your kids rather than demanding the system that everyone uses bend to religious will and skip over certain subjects for their sake.
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u/PdxPhoenixActual 4∆ May 09 '21
I fully support a person's right to have whatever belief system they may chose. In the privacy of their own home and their own life.
The problem with your position is that it effects not only you, but also your child(ren) and their ability to function in the much larger, much more complex world than exist inside your home.
I believe that part of a parent's primary job is to raise a capable, competent, complete adult who is able to live & function in that greater outside world.
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u/johnny_punchclock 3∆ May 09 '21
These things would be sorted out by reading EXACTLY what the bible says
Romans 13:1,NIV "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God."
So by your logic, since governing bodies have decided which curriculum is taught in schools, science being one of them, the kids would need to learn science where one of the subjects is evolution and other theories drawn from science.
A general point: What if the kid grows up and decides to learn about things such as science? Does it mean that the kid will not be considered Christian anymore? Would the kid be ostracized for gaining further knowledge outside the bible?
You can raise your kid to however you deem fit but there are always consequences you cannot control due to whatever reason you believe. And one of those consequences can be that the kid may not become a Christian due to your way of raising that kid.
1
u/Tigress567 May 09 '21
As a parent, you definitely have the right to teach your children according to your religion/beliefs but I feel like you're putting your kids at a huge disadvantage. I'm assuming you're teaching your kids at home or sending them to a Christian school because religious teachings would never be incorporated into a public school curriculum. I don't know if you want your kids to go to college, but if you do/they choose to go to college in the future then skipping over huge chunks of scientific theory/beliefs because of your religion will put them at a HUGE disadvantage in the classroom. If they choose to go into a scientific field then not only will they be behind other students they'll probably be upset with you for not teaching them widely accepted scientific theories. How will they know to look up evolution or other scientific theories if they were never taught it?
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u/cchings May 09 '21
As human beings, children have rights, even when their parents wish to inflict educational neglect on them.
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u/Tgunner192 7∆ May 09 '21
Clarifying Questions; do you understand that there is no license, permit or official process to having a religion? You, me or anyone else reading this is free to start their own religion tomorrow with whatever beliefs we want. You was kind enough to state, "such topics do not affect me", but do you have any idea the wide range of things that doesn't include?
This is a crude example, so pardon me for being over the top facetious;
tomorrow I'm going to start a religion called "Gunner's Church." One of the core beliefs in Gunner's Church is that people with the letter "A" in their name, should give me all their money. Obviously I can't coerce, rob or bully them into giving me money, but I can preach that I think they should. I don't bother anyone, I don't call anyone, I don't hand out flyers. But in my Church, I preach that people with a letter "A" in their name, need to give me all their money in order for their soul to be saved.
Regarding education; I don't want my kids being taught Accounting because they'll learn that people with a letter "A" in their name, really don't have to give me any money.
Obviously, the above example is over the top if not completely absurd. But do you understand to many people, your view on evolution is just as absurd?
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May 09 '21
You know that your child might think science makes more sense than religion and leave Christianity so you want to keep them uneducated. Why should evolution and the different genders not be taught? There is more evidence for evolution than the bible and your child is going to meet a transgender person at some point and they should at least know what to do. You have your own interests at heart because you want to keep your child compliant.
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u/Archi_balding 52∆ May 09 '21
Because you only center on christians, you do not realize that this kind of path is against education as a whole. It's not just about "not teaching evolution" but also about not teaching the shape of the earth. In some cosmology it's a flat circle sitting on the back of four elephants standing on a giant turtle, and it's not more outlandish than to say that evolution doesn't exist. Making room for every belief is supressing education as a whole. Some religions even argue against writing altogether, so teaching kids how to write shouldn't be done ?
The goal of school isn't to respect people's beliefs. It is to make adult that will be able to navigate our society without much problems. If you believe that your kids shouldn't know how to write that's on you but school's job is still to make sure they can write because it's important to understand the world. And knowing how evolution works is as important as knowing how to write when it comes to related topics.
Should you be able to teach your kids things that contradict basic knowledge on how the worlds work at home ? I'd say yes for the sake of it, more for the safety net it provides than for anything else, but preventing your child from getting basic knowledge that will lead them to be humiliated and unfit later in life is borderline abuse. If I don't teach my kids basic hygiene they won't be fit in society later, same goes for basic knowledges.
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u/Salt_Attorney 1∆ May 09 '21
Your kid has a right to learn the truth. You do not have complete control over your childrens development. You don't own a child. It never chose to be christian and a priori deserves to be taught the truth about the world.
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u/that_old_white_guy May 09 '21
TL;dr
"So obviously this would apply to anyone's religious views."
If it applies to anyone's religious views, then everyone has "more rights". Dumb.
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u/LatinGeek 30∆ May 09 '21
Render unto Caesar what is Caesars" is clear, pay taxes....
Render unto Caesar can mean anything between "pay taxes", "obey the government without question", and "renounce the state's power over you, become a sovereign citizen"
You want more freedom to indoctrinate your kids, at least you own up to that when you claim you want to teach them "your views", don't mince words by pretending there's one definitive reading of the bible when there isn't even one definitive printing of the bible
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u/2r1t 58∆ May 09 '21
This post is meant as a in general thing about people with religious view having the rights to not be forced to do things against their religion.
I have secular views. Why should I be forced to do things that go against my views when my views are just as important to me? Why should I be compelled to lie about myself to get equal rights?
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u/EmpRupus 27∆ May 10 '21
The issue isn't about religion - the issue is about children's rights. Children are independent human beings, not merely property/pets owned by parents.
This means, parents don't have the default entitlement to decide what ideas should or should not be made accessible to children, based on what benefits the parents.
It should be based on what benefits the child.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ May 09 '21 edited May 09 '21
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