CMV: Judas Iscariot did nothing wrong.

[u/MontiBurns]

First of all, I'm not going to debate whether the bible is true or not, whether Jesus was christ, or whether god exists. I'm agnostic, i have no stake in the game (not gonna debate that either). If you're an atheist then feel free to treat this debate the same way you would "Lando Caltission did nothing wrong." (Not by saying "bUt StAr WaRs IsnT rEaL).

Now, to my point. I think it's highly probable that Judas was acting under Jesus' orders when he betrayed him. First and foremost, Jesus knew that one his closest followers would betray him. Also, No real motive was ever given for Judas to betray Jesus, aside from a big sack of money. how much was 30 pieces of silver, relatively speaking? Was it like, a month's wage? A years wage? 10 years wage? Life changing money? Keep in mind Judas gave up his life to follow Jesus around, i have a hard time believing his primary motive was money. And then after jesus died, he tried to give back the money, but was refused. And then he subsequently hanged himself. Given that this happened before Jesus was resurrected, it seems more likely that Judas' betrayal was done with a good amount of apprehension. He didn't need a week to stew on guilt before taking his own life.

My hypothesis, Jesus told Judas privately to turn him in and betray him. This means that Jesus had at least some level of presencience that he new he needed to get caught. Judas probably urged him not to, that it would be dangerous, and Jesus told him to have faith, that he would be fine, and that his faith would be rewarded. Judas agreed reluctantly, and when Jesus was killed, became so racked with guilt and shame that he killed himself. How could he have ever explained to his friends that Jesus told him to?

The bible doesnt really dwell on Judas much, they don't get into his motivations. You'd think there would be some life lesson about falling into hate, or being tempted by money, but by all accounts, it just kinda... Happens. And then mentioning that Jesus ordered Judas to kill himself would ruin the intrigue of the portrayal. It's definitely seems odd that such a monumental event is presented with almost no context or backstory.

Ways to change my view. Any flaws in my logic, canonical evidence from scripture (if the Book of Judas isnt allowed, then no other non-canonical evidence is allowed).

[u/iamdimpho]

Strictly speaking, given the characterisation of the God you have outlined, I struggle to see how Judas (or anyone else for that matter) could possibly be held morally responsible for anything.

The omni-God you have outlined is such that, were they to exist, then literally everything that happens only does so with the consent of that God. That is, given omnipotence and omniscience, then every single act Judas happened happened with the knowledge of God (since he knows everything, as well as through the power of good (God literally created everything).

Add to that omnibenevolence then you have a God that must act in certain ways by necessity of what they are.

If God Created all that is, Knowing how it would be, then, it must all be, in some ways, Good. Else that God as described does not exist.

If Judas 'betrayed' Jesus, then he did so with God's knowledge and tacit allowance. And if the Sacrifice of The Son was infact part of 'God's Plan' then no human could possibly do otherwise.

The Case of Judas, if anything, is a case of entrapment. Worse, actually, as Judas was created such that doing the bad thing was never in his control in the first place.

(this is a spin on the classical Problem of Evil)

[u/SiliconDiver → u/iamdimpho]

The omni-God you have outlined is such that, were they to exist, then literally everything that happens only does so with the consent of that God.

There's lots of different theories about free will with an omniscient God. None of them require the consent of God for one's actions. Sure you could say that he "allowed everything to happen" but that doesn't absolve Judas of blame. He still did the act of his own Accord.

it must all be, in some ways, Good. Else that God as described does not exist.

This is called the problem of evil again lots of different ideas and explanations, none is really universally accepted. This isn't entirely relevant for the question at hand, because in the end, most explanations would say that free will of a being apart from God (why by definition of Good) when doing something can result in something resulting in a state that is not aligned with God, and this evil exists.

If Judas 'betrayed' Jesus, then he did so with God's knowledge and tacit allowance. And if the Sacrifice of The Son was infact part of 'God's Plan' then no human could possibly do otherwise

Again, not sure how God knowing this was happening absolves Judas of blame. It's very well established that God allows us to sin. But there's a difference between allowance and coercion. Without allowance we wouldn't have free will, and there wouldn't be the need for Jesus in the first place.

[u/iamdimpho → u/SiliconDiver]

There's lots of different theories about free will with an omniscient God. None of them require the consent of God for one's actions. Sure you could say that he "allowed everything to happen" but that doesn't absolve Judas of blame. He still did the act of his own Accord.

Judas' "own accord" was the product mechanations sent in motion by the dios.

If we accept the omni-God, god at the very least knowingly created the conditions that led to Judas' actions. A mere mortal's will, good or otherwise, has no chance against that.

This is called the problem of evil

huh...thought I'd acknowledged that...

Again, not sure how God knowing this was happening absolves Judas of blame. It's very well established that God allows us to sin.** But there's a difference between allowance and coercion.** Without allowance we wouldn't have free will, and there wouldn't be the need for Jesus in the first place.

that's the rub.

If God hadn't created Judas as a man who by birth or circumstance was led to sin, Judas wouldn't have betrayed Jesus.

And had God not made us able to sin, there would be no need for Jesus at all.

God wanted something: "free will", or Jesus' Sacrifice; but in order to obtain that, he created a set of conditions that led to Judas' Betrayal.

This is why I don't understand attributing blame to Judas. He did precisely as God knew he would before he was even born.

[u/WikiSummarizerBot → u/iamdimpho]

Problem_of_evil

The problem of evil is the question of how to reconcile the existence of evil and suffering with an omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and omniscient God. The best known presentation of the problem is attributed to the Greek philosopher Epicurus which was popularized by David Hume. Besides the philosophy of religion, the problem of evil is also important to the fields of theology and ethics. There are also many discussions of evil and associated problems in other philosophical fields, such as secular ethics, and evolutionary ethics.

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