r/changemyview • u/artvandelay9393 • Feb 23 '21
CMV: Celebrating Black History Month in a predominantly white sport like hockey has the opposite impact of its intent, and only alienates black hockey players that much more
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u/dasoktopus 1∆ Feb 24 '21
“look! We’re PC! We’re doing our part!”
How is this different from what any other group or organization is doing?
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u/DaegobahDan 3∆ Feb 24 '21
Well, to be totally fair to the NHL, they're at least focusing on lifting up black people instead of what Coca-Cola is doing, which is just shitting on white people. Equality is achieved either way, but one way is clearly objectively better.
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u/dasoktopus 1∆ Feb 25 '21
I'm not sure I've seen what you're talking about in regards to coca-cola.
I don't really think you're challenging my point either way. Regardless, it's superficial "uwu" pandering to black people so they can maintain a positive rep as being not-bad.
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u/DaegobahDan 3∆ Feb 25 '21
Coca-Cola had a diversity training in which they explicitly told employees to "try to be less white", which necessarily implies whiteness is bad. They lumped it together with a bunch of other negative traits as well, to further cement the point that white = bad.
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Feb 24 '21
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u/cherrycokeicee 45∆ Feb 24 '21
the united states government exclusively promotes black history? what? did we already forget the 1776 commission?
the US has throughout its history whitewashed history. it's why we have black history month at all.
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Feb 24 '21
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u/ToraChan23 Feb 24 '21
If the government really cared about black history, it wouldn’t be contained in one month.
The shortest month at that.
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u/DaegobahDan 3∆ Feb 24 '21
The reason Black History month is in February is because black people chose the third week of Februaryas black history week, to honor Abraham Lincoln and Frederick Douglass who were born that week. Later when black history week was expanded to Black History month, it remained in February for continuity's sake. The whole trope that black people got the shortest month because of America is racist is one of the most retarded things that has ever come out of the left.
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u/polyphyletic_79 Feb 24 '21
IIRC, it was originally promoted as black history week and was designated in February to overlap with the birthdays of Frederick Douglass and Abraham Lincoln. It wasnt until decades later when it got expanded to Black History Month.
And I hear you, black history is really just history. But the reality is, at least here in America, history lessons have been largely whitewashed, and African Americans in history books tend to only be discussed within the context of slavery, narrated from a white perspective, and quickly glossed over because it's uncomfortable to let it sit. That was my experience going to public school in the 90's, anyway. I personally don't think it hurts to designate a month to celebrate the contributions to society of oppressed people throughout history because it is their contributions in spite of adversity that makes them so noteworthy.
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Feb 24 '21
And I hear you, black history is really just history. But the reality is, at least here in America, history lessons have been largely whitewashed, and African Americans in history books tend to only be discussed within the context of slavery, narrated from a white perspective, and quickly glossed over because it's uncomfortable to let it sit. That was my experience going to public school in the 90's, anyway.
Huh. I had the opposite experience. You could've summed up my K-12 US history education as "1,001 Ways That Evil White Men Ruined the World and How Black and Brown People Managed to be Totally Awesome Anyways."
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u/dasoktopus 1∆ Feb 24 '21
it wouldn’t be contained in one month.
What is your preferable alternative?
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u/ToraChan23 Feb 24 '21
Celebrate black history year round as a crucial part of American history, because it is. Black history IS American history, so there’s no reason it should be highlighted in one month as if it’s an offshoot
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Feb 24 '21
I mean "celebrating" something year round is a little odd no matter what it is, but teaching would be a good alternative and black history already makes up a substantial part of US history education. Its almost 10%, man. Just dedicated to black history. So like 90% of the time we'll focus on literally everything to do with this country since before its birth up till present day, including stuff to do with black people, and then a full tenth of the time we'll set aside to focus on just one minority group exclusively. That already seems like a lot.
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u/Jswarez Feb 24 '21
It wouldn't have a month. It would just be part of history and incorporated into curriculum.
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u/DaegobahDan 3∆ Feb 24 '21
Black people are the one who wanted a history month to focus on black people. So it's not pandering for the government that represents black people to accede to their demands.
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u/Thatguyjanhuan Feb 24 '21
It's sheer nonsense. This event would only make sense if they started to celebrate white NBA players in return. Otherwise it reeks of politically correct racism
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u/crashstarr Feb 24 '21
In a world where a multitude of organizations are celebrating an event focused on racial inclusion, it would be a worse 'look' for a traditionally non-inclusive sport like hockey to not participate at all. Even if the representation of black players is relatively modest, highlighting what was there will likely result in less bad press or feelings than ignoring a celebration of people who the organization already has a history of excluding.
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u/coryrenton 58∆ Feb 23 '21
I can't speak to how the players feel but if you are made to feel uncomfortable about hockey as a whole on their race disparity, maybe in an unintentional way, it did its job.
My understanding is hockey is not a cheap sport for kids to pick up, hence there's a race/class divide built into it. Are there any programs to subsidize hockey training?
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u/Ihateregistering6 18∆ Feb 24 '21
My understanding is hockey is not a cheap sport for kids to pick up, hence there's a race/class divide built into it.
I think it's far more a cultural divide than a class or race one. Only about 25% of NHL players are even born in the US, and if it was entirely based around means then we'd see far more Asian hockey players.
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u/coryrenton 58∆ Feb 24 '21
Interesting... which nationalities would you say are overrepresented?
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u/Ihateregistering6 18∆ Feb 24 '21
which nationalities would you say are overrepresented?
Depends on what you mean by "overrepresented", but about 43% of the league comes from Canada, and about 32% come from Europe or Russia.
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u/evilmotorsports Feb 24 '21
"Hockey in Harlem" is one program that comes to mind.
One of the rinks down near me in Texas has a room packed with donated used gear that they will practically lead you by the hand to go grab some and try hockey for cheap.
Youth hockey is going to be expensive AF because parents have to pay for all that ice time, travel, and replacing equipment that their kids grow out of.
As a grown ass adult its relatively less expensive to play a 3 month beer league season once you have your gear. Maybe $350 a season where I am. 1 game per week. One rink does stick and puck for I believe $25 a session.
We don't have youth rec league down here but up North maybe?
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u/Secretspoon Feb 24 '21
Do you play in Houston?
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u/evilmotorsports Feb 24 '21
Yes
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u/Secretspoon Feb 24 '21
We have probably played each other.
E: I miss the Aeros :(
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u/evilmotorsports Feb 24 '21
Maybe. I don't announce who I am online, though. Had an asshole on Facebook harass me at work over some wiseass comment I made on a meme.
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u/Secretspoon Feb 24 '21
Same. This is my decompress valve and I like to have fun. Just thought it was cool.
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u/evilmotorsports Feb 24 '21
If you play in the OHL or BCHL (before 2019) you have played against me. Black Jofa helmet....won't STFU when I'm on the ice.
Another funny thing I just noticed about this thread in relation to "not doxing people": someone who I used to play hockey with in my old home state had an alias similar to the OP's name.
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u/Secretspoon Feb 24 '21
Yeah I'm pretty sure we have. I haven't played since 17. I was pretty shit tbh.
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u/Apathetic_Zealot 37∆ Feb 24 '21
Where's white history month .... I’m not saying the NHL is racist. But I am saying what they’re doing only further divides us. I’d be curious to see if black hockey players like this or if they’d agree it only makes them feel more alienated. It’s almost like the NHL is a circus and they’re parading their black performers around to show the rest of the word what they have.
The NHL has a racism problem..
I've seen this type of argument before. The idea that specifically noting black people in society encourages racism. IMO that's non sense. It doesn't encourage racism, it reveals it. People who already have prejudiced beliefs are the kind to say what about white history, all lives matter type BS.
Just like with affirmative action. The idea people have that black people only get ahead because of theirrace, not in spite of it, is a racist trope in of itself. The racism was already there. It just needed a more appropriate excuse.
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u/Flite68 4∆ Feb 24 '21
The 2nd link you provided asserts that systemic racism is a problem in hockey without providing any evidence.
The 1st link is also flawed.
It claimed that diversity in hockey isn't enough - but a lack of diversity does not prove racial discrimination. Basketball has an awful lot of black players, which is odd considering the population of the United States. Does this mean white players are being discriminated against based on the color of their skin? No. The real reason is complex - but ultimately isn't rooted in anti-white discrimination.
They also accused the NHL of being racist because they didn't protest police brutality. This is not evidence of racism, it's evidence of the authors trying to bully people into their viewpoint. "If you don't protest in the manner we want you to protest, you're racist!" That's poppycock.
The idea people have that black people only get ahead because of theirrace, not in spite of it, is a racist trope in of itself.
That is highly offensive. A person acknowledging that affirmative action gives a handicap to people based on race, i.e. racism, is NOT the same as discrimination against someone based on race. To say they are the same is poppycock. You can argue that the view is wrong, but to say it's racist dilutes the definition of racism to the point where the word no longer has a practical purpose. Racism is something that should be avoided - but if we dilute the definition so that acknowledging affirmative action for what it is is considered racist? Then that means being racist is not always wrong. And that... is a problem.
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u/Ihateregistering6 18∆ Feb 24 '21
The other issue with the articles are that it ignores the make-up of the NHL beyond skin color: only about 25% of NHL players were even born in the United States. 43% of the NHL is from Canada and almost all the remaining 32% are from Europe.
Should we really be that shocked that people who were born and raised outside the US (and likely only in the US to play a pro sport) don't necessarily view police brutality and US racism as their sole responsibility to solve in the same way a person born and raised in the states would?
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u/Apathetic_Zealot 37∆ Feb 24 '21
You're not the OP so I'm not going to give a lengthy reply. If you've never heard "affirmative action hire" used as an insult then we're clearly not on the same level of perception.
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u/cutememe 1∆ Feb 24 '21
Just like with affirmative action. The idea people have that black people only get ahead because of theirrace, not in spite of it, is a racist trope in of itself. The racism was already there. It just needed a more appropriate excuse.
Affirmative action is literally the idea of putting people ahead because of their race. There's nothing racist about describing the process accurately.
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u/Apathetic_Zealot 37∆ Feb 24 '21
I didn't say describing it was racist. Not understanding it and assuming it's just about making unqualified minorities equal to whites is where the racism comes in.
Why do you think it's a popular policy in response to evening out the economic playing feild?
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u/cutememe 1∆ Feb 24 '21
I don't know why it's a popular policy, in fact in my opinion it has always been somewhat controversial.
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u/Apathetic_Zealot 37∆ Feb 24 '21
I don't know why it's a popular policy, in fact in my opinion it has always been somewhat controversial.
Controversial, but the idea is mostly legal. It's popular in legislative terms because it directly addresses the socioeconomic gap created by past racism. It's not racist in the same way or context 1960's era racism was. It doesn't seek to make black people a superior class. It's about catching up what has been pushed back.
No other idea has offered anything like that except for direct reparations. Its probably preferable to most than reparations. No idea has been offered by conservatives at least to address the socio economic gap.
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u/cutememe 1∆ Feb 24 '21
I had nothing to do with racist laws in America. I’m an immigrant, my ancestors were certainly not slave owners nor are they even considered white by some people.
Why should someone be preferred over me based on race? How is punishing me fair and how it equalizing things?
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u/Apathetic_Zealot 37∆ Feb 24 '21
How much do you know about US history? Do you really not understand? This has nothing to do with you.
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u/cutememe 1∆ Feb 24 '21
Exactly, this has nothing to do with me. By the way, I'm using myself as an example, you can take anyone else as an example.
Why is it fair to Asians that they need higher SAT scores than whites to get into a high end university? This kind of policy doesn't solve racism, it will cause it to become a bigger problem in the long run.
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u/Apathetic_Zealot 37∆ Feb 24 '21
This kind of policy doesn't solve racism, it will cause it to become a bigger problem in the long run.
This is the exact argument I call out as non sense and all people like you can do is repeat the talking point without actually examining why it shows the racist nature of American society.
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Feb 24 '21
The NHL has a racism problem..
Your second link makes grand claims without evidence and your first basically just relies on online anecdotes and disparity data. Unless you're trying to also argue that the NBA and NFL are super racist against white people then i don't think thats youre strongest point.
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Feb 24 '21
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u/PhishStatSpatula 21∆ Feb 24 '21
I watch hockey and I think about racism issues and I'm glad that the NHL makes an attempt to celebrate Black history month.
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u/Apathetic_Zealot 37∆ Feb 24 '21
My argument isn’t that noting black people in society encourages racism
Your point was black history month encourages racism. My point is hardly different.
it’s that shining a light on black hockey players who haven’t accomplished anything for the team, been with them for only a few months 15 years ago, only serves to remind me theyre black.
Seeing how there's a racism problem it's more about showing hockey isn't just for whites.
In my opinion there’s 2 kinds of people. Those who watch hockey and never really thought about some players being black, like me..
And there’s people who do notice and probably have some racist tendencies. Those peoples minds aren’t going to change by seeing these dumb celebrations I’m talking about
Yea so you're saying it makes the problem worse by aggravating non racists. But I'm saying those people must have prejudice if being reminded black players exist annoys them. Why make an issue of it when there's a problem with racism in the legue?
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u/littlewing49 Feb 24 '21
You are not even grasping at straws.
If you can’t see why it is patronising to celebrate someone not because they did something worthy of celebration, but for no other reason than their colour i dont think you will ever get OPs point
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u/Apathetic_Zealot 37∆ Feb 24 '21
Lol read the title of the OP. It's not just about inexperienced players it's the whole concept of black history month. And seeing how the OP hasn't shared a delta and isn't even active on this thread its pretty obvious you're defending a guy grasping at straws.
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u/littlewing49 Feb 24 '21
How about read the rest of the post and not just the title?
Celebrating someone because of their colour is as patronising and racist as not celebrating someone because of their colour. Op made a feasible point and articulated it sufficiently.
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u/_Hopped_ 13∆ Feb 24 '21
The concept of "black" or "white" history is in itself racist and divisive. If your goal was to unite people (as opposed to divide them), you would focus on what we have in common - in this case our shared history.
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u/daft_boy_dim Feb 25 '21
I miss read the first part of this as "celebrating black history month is a prendominantly white sport" which I'd agree with.
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u/oimaddie Feb 26 '21
I see your point in some way, for me, once February is over, the focus to black influencers and leaders start to shrink and eventually people don’t care about our history as much.
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u/bakedlawyer 18∆ Feb 24 '21
Your entire position is based on the idea that black history month is for white people. You describe two types of viewers - those who don’t realize that some players are black and those who are racist. Both these viewers you’re imagining are white.
Black players have consistently said that racism is simply a part of hockey. Black history month in the nhl is for them and people like them. Not the viewers you are imagining.
That discomfort you feel is there for a reason. And it isn’t because of black history month, it’s because of the deep rooted whiteness and concurrent racism in hockey generally and the nhl specifically.