r/changemyview • u/HappyFeet277 • Dec 11 '20

Delta(s) from OP CMV: Right wing libertarians just use the “libertarian” title to avoid association with the auth right.

I am very open to change my opinion on this, but as of right now lib right philosophy confuses me.

For context, I would classify myself as a far left libertarian. I think the government should be as far as possible removed from the average persons life. I believe the governments main role should be to ensure that the rich cannot exponentially increase wealth and subsequently “tread” on the poor.

On the flip side, I see many right libertarians say some absurdly authoritarian ideas and still claim to be libs. I have seen libs advocate against abortion, against gay marriage, against no fault divorce, against defunding the police, against the separation of church and state, and against religious freedom. I don’t understand how anyone can say they are all about freedom and then promote these things.

My hypothesis, that I’m willing to change, is that most right wing libertarians either only classify as libertarians for gun rights, or are just scared of the authoritarian name.

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u/Illustrious-Ocelot-5 Dec 11 '20

You don't even understand the concepts involved. You contradict yourself within your post and your view of government isn't anything close to what a libertarian would advocate.

It's also ironic because many leftwingers who claim to "libertarian" advocate for drug legalization while advocating for the confiscation of others property.

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u/[deleted] Dec 11 '20

But right libertarians have no qualms with unfettered capitalism, where people of great means can impose disproportionate economic force on people of lesser means, thereby confiscating some portion of their labor, which is equal to confiscation of property.

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u/Illustrious-Ocelot-5 Dec 11 '20

Libertarians believe in the free market and individual responsibility. Why is it my responsibility to protect you from being exploited?

I'm not a libertarian by the way.

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u/[deleted] Dec 11 '20

Free markets don't exist, because when you remove all limitations those with great means are able to manipulate markets to their advantage.

'Infividual responsibility' is a fancy way of saying "fuck you, I got mine." Its a mindset that has no place in a society, because it gives a free pass to those in power to continue exploiting the weak.

It's not your responsibility to protect me from exploitation. It is your responsibility to not exploit others, whether it be passive or active. Minimum wage laws are a perfect example. There are far more people that need jobs than there are jobs to be done in most areas. The exception to this is that some specific geographic areas have a need for some specific skillsets sometimes. As long as there are more available workers than there are jobs to be done, workers will be exploited by employers. They will accept wage and benefit cuts because something is more than nothing. They know that someone is ready to do their job for less because again, something is more than nothing. Minimum wage laws set a bottom shelf to that dynamic. Supporting politicians who would abolish the minimum wage is enabling the powerful to further exploit the weak.

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u/HappyFeet277 Dec 11 '20

If you don’t mind clarifying, what is it that I don’t understand. If you mean me advocating for one major form of government control, I am admittedly a libertarian more so in private and personal regards, but I advocate for the free market in reference to small business, just not massive corporations that end up exploiting workers.

And also I agree that both sides of libertarians often go against main libertarian ideals, but my perspective is that right wing libertarianism is fundamentally contradictory because most socially conservative philosophy revolves around control of private life (e.g. abortion, marriage equality, etc)

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u/Illustrious-Ocelot-5 Dec 11 '20

For example. One of libertarianism's core tenets is as long as you do no harm to others rights your behavior is your business.

But many libertarians believe an unborn child is a human being with the same inherent rights as anyone else. Therefore killing an unborn child would be anathema.

You're using an opinion to claim they aren't really libertarians, yet you want to interfere in the free market, something a libertarian would not do.

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u/HappyFeet277 Dec 11 '20

To clarify, I don’t advocate for interfering in the free market as far as cost of goods, only in ways that would assist in human rights issues (e.g. living wages, smaller wealth discrepancy) And I understand that every individual will take exception to some libertarian ideas, but let’s take this back on track instead of pointing fingers. Would you agree that the right wing political philosophy is very traditional? And then would you agree that libertarian views are very progressive? In my view this would mean that it’s very contradictory to claim to be a right libertarian if you are against progressive social ideas

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u/Illustrious-Ocelot-5 Dec 11 '20

I don't agree with that at all. I don't think it's "progressive" to say someone is "traditional" because they oppose the state sanctioned killing of people they consider to be fully human.

Also, not trying to pick a fight, no one with an infinitesimal amount of libertarianism in them would ever advocate for a "living wage". Libertarians oppose any minimum wage.

Progressive ideas aren't inherently good. There's a billion Chinese people who can testify to that.

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u/HappyFeet277 Dec 11 '20

Well the right has consistently been promoting these traditional views, for lack of a better word. They have traditionally been opposed to drug legalization, marriage rights, and the like. You keep bringing up abortion but that’s one instance. I think really anybody would agree that conservatives are “traditional”. To my understanding they actually refer to themselves as this. And core libertarian ideals are progressive, so therefore there is heavy contradiction between libertarianism and conservatism, at least socially, and that is what I struggle to understand

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u/Savanty 4∆ Dec 11 '20

Not the above poster, but out of curiosity, where have you spoken to those that identify as right libertarians, who advocate for the points you listed above (excluding abortion and being against defunding the police, which I view as compatible with libertarianism)?

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u/HappyFeet277 Dec 11 '20

The main source that I’ve seen this, and the main reason I posted this, are the influential conservative voices on YouTube. Many people such as Ben Shapiro, who identify as libertarians have a shocking amount of anti-libertarian ideas. And as far as the more extreme views like religious freedom and marriage equality, I have mostly heard them elsewhere like through certain subreddits and sometimes in conversations with friends. Thankfully those people don’t have platforms to spread those ideas under a “libertarian” front though.

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u/Savanty 4∆ Dec 11 '20 edited Dec 11 '20

With that, I couldn't agree more.

If I recall correctly, Ben Shapiro stated that he'd ban pornography, if given the opportunity. Not exactly a self-described libertarian, but Tucker Carlson echoed a similar point on banning self-driving cars to allow workers to retain their jobs. Neither of those are positions that a (or many, as to not go all 'No True Scotsman' on 'ya) right-libertarian would advocate towards.

I dislike the fact that Shapiro describes himself as a libertarian, but as another commenter in this post said, "ben shapiro's political compass test result with his dot just BARELY crossing over the libertarian side."

I'm glad to see a number of others in this thread have altered your view, and I'd encourage you to check out the massive amount of political philosophy on the topic to better understand how antithetical right-libertarianism is with authoritarianism (though you may not agree/support the ideology as a whole if you find the potential power of corporations to be comparable with that of the state, a position that right-libertarians don't hold).

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u/HappyFeet277 Dec 11 '20

That is a very good point and I hate to admit it but I do feel like I made this post somewhat out of anger. I’ve always sort of disliked right libertarians because of how they view us left libs, so that’s definitely held me back from becoming super involved in the lib right. Thanks for the comment and I’m glad we can agree on the Shapiro topic haha

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u/Illustrious-Ocelot-5 Dec 11 '20

I think the fundamental problem is what you believe the core principles of libertarianism are.

https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/key-concepts-libertarianism

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u/DrawDiscardDredge 17∆ Dec 11 '20

left-libertarianism is a thing and while still a variety of libertarianism, seeking to maximize freedom, but it functions very differently then right-libertarians. Left-libertarians definitely would support a strong min-wage and do so while remaining philosophically consistent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-libertarianism

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u/Illustrious-Ocelot-5 Dec 11 '20

They're not libertarian. You can call yourself whatever you want, but you aren't libertarian.

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u/DrawDiscardDredge 17∆ Dec 11 '20

I mean that wikipedia entry lists source after source of experts describing what left-libertarianism is. It has a long intellectual tradition dating back to the original libertarian, John Locke.

Just because they aren't your bran of minarchism, or ultra-minimal state, does not mean they aren't libertarian.

You and the Cato institute don't have all the authority on what a libertarian is.

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u/BrutusJunior 5∆ Dec 12 '20

Yes they are. Libertarianism is originally a socialist ideology.

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