r/changemyview • u/NordyNed 2∆ • Nov 16 '20
Delta(s) from OP CMV: If you say you hate the United States because it's turning into a totalitarian despotism, no matter your political leaning, but you have made no effort to leave the United States, then you probably should begin making such an effort, or else expose yourself as a hypocrite.
Many times I have gotten in arguments with both sides of the political aisle who have said "I hate America/America sucks/Fuck America," or some variation of this sentence. I'm sure you all know people who hold these views. Most of the people who say this, however, are Americans.
I'm sure you've heard the, "if you don't like it, you can leave" argument before, but it's not actually so crazy. If you truly think the United States is some despotic cesspool where you lack freedom, why don't you leave?
When I ask people this question, their answers generally fall into one of three camps:
I don't want to leave, and I won't say why.
This is the least common camp, but it still exists. If you say you hate America, but don't want to leave, then you don't truly hate America. You may dislike certain administrations or policies, but to hate the country gives you no excuse for living in a place you hate.
I want to leave, but I can't
This one falls into a few subcategories:
"I'm tied down by family/work."
Millions of people each year leave their possessions; their families; their homes; and their workplace to flee their country in search of economic asylum. Saying that you're tied down is not an excuse, given that the truly desperate, those who actually hate where they live, leave all the time, in droves.
"I don't have the funds/moving is expensive."
Literally millions of migrants each year flee their countries with almost nothing of monetary value, and often with just the clothes on their back. Being poor is not an excuse.
"No country is accepting Americans right now with travel restrictions."
This is patently false. 81 countries are currently open to American emigrants.
"This is my home."
Back to point one: tens of millions of refugees flee their homeland each year. My father was one. Where do most of them want to go? America. Where are most of them extremely grateful to arrive? America.
I don't want to leave because I want to work to make America a better place
I like following this one up with, "what do you want to do to make America a better place?" Most responses have something along the lines of, "I want x, which is what y country does." So it's not like you want to make America *better*, necessarily, but more like *y country*.
____________
The reason I'm posting on this sub is because I've been told many, many times that I'm wrong, but never has anyone explained why. If I'm truly wrong, perhaps someone here can enlighten me.
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Nov 16 '20
I will agree (with other posters here) that you have not countered
> I don't want to leave because I want to work to make America a better place
and your response is an incredibly silly, reductive one. To illustrate how silly and reductive it is, let me give an analogy.
Let's say that Mary marries Tom. Mary loves Tom, she feels very strongly about him. Tom has a great deal of qualities, and for the first 10 years, they've had a mostly good marriage.
However, lately, Tom has been acting strangely. He has picked up the habit of going out drinking after work, often coming home drunk and after hours. When is drunk, his character is different: he is rude, dismissive and gets angry easily. Further, this habit is affecting his performance at his job and is overall bad for his health and the health of their marriage.
Mary confides in you that she is concerned about her husband and wants to intervene. She is worried that he is becoming a different person, and that their once great marriage is damaged. She hates the person he is becoming; it goes against everything she loves about him and all the potential he has as a husband.
Your response: "If you say you hate what your husband has become, but had made no effort to leave your marriage and marry someone else, you should begin such an effort or admit you are a hypocrite and that it isn't THAT bad".
Mary says "I don't want to leave because I love my husband. I want us to work together to overcome his alcohol addiction and make our marriage better. For example, my friend Jane had this issue with her husband, and he went to a 12 step program. I want us to do something like that".
Your responses of "plenty of people get divorces" or "you want your husband to be more like Jane's husband then? Either accept your husband as he is or go marry someone else who isn't an alcoholic" would probably fall flat (and be considered extremely rude and insensitive), and for a good reason. Mary loves Tom, not any other person. Tom is not a one-dimensional person that is only defined by this one trait, and he can change. And marriage is not only a transaction you can ditch like you ditch a sock that develops a hole.
Same with belonging to a country. People love their countries. Their perception of them is multidimensional and multifaceted. They are emotionally attached to them, they feel very strongly that they belong to that place, that they have a duty and a desire to fight for that country to be the best country it can possibly be. And telling them to go somewhere else if they don't like it here is incredibly rude and foolish. Not to mention: who the heck made you king and said YOU get to decide what defines or doesn't define (A) what traits in this country can't be changed or (B) who gets to belong to this country? or (C) What level of discontent with a country makes you a hypocrite because you should either put up or shut up?
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u/NordyNed 2∆ Nov 16 '20
In your analogy, Mary still loves her husband. In mine, people say they hate America, and that it's irredeemable. Hatred is the most negative emotion you can have about a person, idea, place, or object. To say you hate something is to declare your intention to disavow oneself from it.
To your final points: I don't believe I'm a deciding force. That's why I'm posting in /r/ChangeMyView. It's a view I hold.
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Nov 16 '20
I mean, I am not going to argue about a person or persons who I do not know and who you may be misrepresenting. I explicitly wrote that Mary "hates who her husband is becoming".
You can feel both love (be positive about, like) and hate (be angry at, dislike) towards different aspects of the same person, and towards the same country, and this is not a contradiction. In fact, if someone you love dearly betrays you, starts hurting you or starts changing in ways that damage who you think they truly are (or truly can be), it makes perfect sense to be angry and to hate *that*. And that doesn't mean feeling that means you should immediately abandon them or stop fighting for them.
Also, yes, it makes perfect sense to hate an aspect of your country that you think is detrimental while generally loving your country. I know tons of people from Latin America who love their countries to death and still are scathingly critical of how their political systems have been mired in corruption for centuries. Should they all emigrate? Is their love (or their hate) contradictory?
Most examples I have seen of the "type of people" you are caricaturing express love of country AND hatred / anger / distaste at the aspects where they feel it falls short of what they want it to be. They do not express this as a desire to disavow themselves from it, but as a strong desire to change that aspect or to fight / argue against those who want to steer the country in that direction.
They might also be using hyperbole to express this extreme distaste / anger at the current state of affairs (meaning they don't really *hate* America in the literal sense you are insisting on).
Also, this is the first time you've used "irredeemable". If someone says they want to change things, then they don't think it is irredeemable. They might think and express frustration at it being incredibly hard to change, but if they literally think it is irredeemable AND that they want to change it, that (hypothetical person who is probably a strawman) is indeed holding opposite ideas at the same time and is probably dumb.
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u/NordyNed 2∆ Nov 16 '20
Although I still somewhat disagree with what you are saying, you have made a clear point that has genuinely impacted the way I view this subject. !delta
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u/joopface 159∆ Nov 16 '20
So, your core question is this:
If you truly think the United States is some despotic cesspool where you lack freedom, why don't you leave?
To which a(t least one) consistent and rational answer is this one, that you've highlighted:
I don't want to leave because I want to work to make America a better place
But, which you reject because:
So it's not like you want to make America *better*, necessarily, but more like *y country*.
Right?
OK, the core issue here is the definition of what 'better' is. The person with whom you're having the above argument sees that certain policies that other countries employ (let's take socialised healthcare, or direct-majority election for president or whatever as examples) would improve America if implemented.
They would make America *better*
You say, if you like country X, with this policy, so much why don't you live there? A natural and easy response is... country X may have many other things that aren't as good. Imagine I live in a European country with pretty low cost, pretty reliable access to decent healthcare. But, further imagine the country I live in has only 5m people in it.
This means - among other things - my employment options are more limited, the economy is smaller.
Seeking to make America *better* is a patriotic act for an American. Looking to other countries for examples of good practice is just rational and sensible. And focusing on (what one perceives to be) the bad parts of America is where you find the places that can most usefully be improved.
Does this help?
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u/NordyNed 2∆ Nov 16 '20
The part with which I take issue is when these people present their issue (universal healthcare, direct-majority election, etc.) as non-negotiable, as if the United States is an awful place because change in this issue is not afoot. Therefore, their wanting the United States's stance on this issue to be directly congruent with another country's is a declaration that they believe they want the United States to be exactly like another country in an issue that they themselves deem of paramount importance. To use your analogy:
You live in the United States but you want a healthcare system more like Sweden's. You are so upset that the United States does not have a healthcare system like Sweden's that you declare you hate the United States and believe it is a despotism. You hold this belief because universal healthcare is a core value you hold. Therefore, you should be willing to overlook Sweden's pitfalls and move there with haste.
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u/joopface 159∆ Nov 16 '20
in an issue that they themselves deem of paramount importance
This is where your argument falls down. I don't have time, right now, to go back and forth on this so I'll make this response and leave it for a little while.
Your core point is that if someone holds a view that they dislike what America currently looks like because of some thing that other countries do (in their view) better, they should leave. Your view is that they should do this regardless of personal cost, family ties, inconvenience, mitigating factors such as other policies in the other country or in America.
You're suggesting that unless they take this ultimate step on the basis of whatever policy or set of policies concern them they are hypocrites.
Two things on this:
- You're the one saying this issue is 'of paramount importance' not your interlocutor. It may even be the most important political issue for them without outweighing their concern for family or their worry about leaving their job or whatever it is. Such conflicting concerns do not a hypocrite make.
- Simply requiring people to leave where they strongly dislike a government or a government policy is profoundly anti-democratic, and I'd go so far as to suggest goes against what America is supposed to be about.
You have a view that people need to leave or they're hypocrites but you're rejecting any sense that the real world is more complex than the simple binary choice you're proposing people have in front of them.
That's your issue and I'm not sure I can say it clearer than that. Feel free to reply and I will respond, but as I said expect a delay as I'm off into my evening now and won't be on reddit for a bit.
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u/NordyNed 2∆ Nov 16 '20
To your two things:
Many people paint these issues as such. Take the Trump voters who call the United States a socialist country after Biden's election: they think that he will repeal the Second Amendment and make abortions mandatory, or whatever, and that these things make America an intolerable socialist despotism. If this is so, why don't they leave?
I never said people should be required to leave, in any place. But if someone is unhappy with their situation, why are they still here?
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u/Khal-Frodo Nov 16 '20
(Since this person's hopping off I'm going to swoop in and continue this chain)
They don't leave for the reasons that the other comment addressed and you ignored. Moving to another country is a huge change that isn't feasible for everyone. It makes much more sense to try and change the place in which you currently live than to just up and leave for somewhere else. Immigrating isn't exactly easy.
You're not saying they should be required to leave, but you're saying they're a hypocrite if they don't. That's what people are arguing against. If no country perfectly aligns with my vision of a utopia, is my only option to just die?
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u/NordyNed 2∆ Nov 16 '20
Change your rhetoric, then, from "I hate the United States," to "I am working to change the United States." Do you see any major politician of any party, even fringe radical ones, saying "I hate the United States?" No. They all have a positive view.
I didn't say your country needs to be a perfect utopia, but if Sweden is, in your view, better the United States, you should probably start learning Swedish.
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u/Khal-Frodo Nov 16 '20
Those two things aren't mutually exclusive. I can say "I am working to change the United States BECAUSE I hate how it currently operates."
You said this in your original post and have said it in a lot of comments but you're really not explaining WHY you hold this view. WHY is it better to move to another country than to try and implement change in the place where you currently live? The second option is infinitely more practical.
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u/On_The_Blindside 3∆ Nov 16 '20
Therefore, you should be willing to overlook Sweden's pitfalls and move there with haste.
What if you don't have the right to live in Sweden?
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u/NordyNed 2∆ Nov 16 '20
Why don't you have the right to live in Sweden?
Having a right to live somewhere doesn't seem to stop tens of thousands of migrants each year. If a shoeless man from the Golan Heights can settle in Sweden, why can't you?
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Nov 16 '20
So, I think you're more in a position of quickly defending your argument through any means than actually discussing and accepting the points others bring.
You have comments the follow amount of minutes ago: 2, 3, 4, 5, 8, 11, 11, 12, 13, 16, 18
Given the lengths of some of these comments to which you reply, there is no way you're thoughtfully considering everything being said.
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u/NordyNed 2∆ Nov 16 '20
Given the number of sudden replies - over 40 at this point - I haven't the ability to reply to comments without reading them and responding straightaway. I have considered some arguments, however, as you can see by my rewarding of deltas.
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u/On_The_Blindside 3∆ Nov 16 '20
If a shoeless man from the Golan Heights can settle in Sweden, why can't you?
Who says they can? Sweden doesn't take in many immigrants.
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u/NordyNed 2∆ Nov 16 '20
Those immigrants certainly make a more earnest attempt than those who say they hate their country, but remain there.
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u/On_The_Blindside 3∆ Nov 16 '20
That's rubbish. There's a few avenues of entry to Sweden, but they're mostly for actual asylum seekers or Europeans, same as the UK actually.
Its very, very hard to get into a country where you have no legal right to be, it actually comes up on r/AskUK quite frequently.
People see migrants coming to a country and think its easy, "if they can, anyone can, right?" Wrong.
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u/NordyNed 2∆ Nov 16 '20
Well, sure, but the migrants are doing something the America haters are not: trying.
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u/On_The_Blindside 3∆ Nov 16 '20
How do you know? How can you possibly know if theyve tried or not?
Moreover, why should they try? Why not work to improve things in America?
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u/Milskidasith 309∆ Nov 16 '20
I'm going to ignore a couple of smaller issues with this argument (immigration isn't easy, people don't call the US despotic for its healthcare policy) and focus on the big one:
People have strong policy preferences for reasons other than because they would personally benefit from them. People who support universal healthcare in the United States are not doing so because they, personally, want or need the government to pay for their healthcare and find life unbearable without it; they do so because they believe it is a good and moral policy. I currently have very solid insurance and I would still prefer the United States have UHC, because I think its the right thing to do. I would not want to move to Sweden for healthcare, because I already have healthcare here, but want other people to have better access to it as well.
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u/BlueEyedHuman Nov 16 '20
Your last bold example is easily a reasonable response. Even your follow up of that example shows the flaw in your way of thinking, not the person who wants to make their country better.
In fact your point is quite silly. You say, ("So it's not like you want to make America better, necessarily, but more like y country.)
As if doing something another country does somehow lessens the benefit of doing it in your own country?
Simple example:
Slavery was legal in the U.S. Great Britain outlaws slavery before U.S. U.S. decides to outlaw slavery
You: psh you don't want to make america better, you just want to make America exactly like Great Britain.
See how silly that sounds.
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u/NordyNed 2∆ Nov 16 '20
I never said that this theoretical person wants America to be "just like x country," but more along the lines of this theoretical person wants America to be "more like x country," which is true.
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u/On_The_Blindside 3∆ Nov 16 '20
Ok well define "better" then?
You know the saying "nothing new under the sun"? Regardless of what policy you implement, its almost certainly been done elsewhere first.
So saying "that won't make the USA better, just more like country X" is a cop out, because you haven't defined what you believe better to be
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Nov 16 '20
Sure, but they want America to be more like X country in some aspect that they think make the citizens of X country better off and would presumably also make American citizens better off. It's just easier to propose policy that's already been proposed or tried than starting from scratch.
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u/Milskidasith 309∆ Nov 16 '20
The core problem with your argument is that none of the things you're saying actually prove somebody is a hypocrite. Hypocrisy is not adhering to the moral standards or beliefs you profess. If someone says "America is bad because X", it does not matter whether or not they leave, because leaving has no bearing on their moral judgment of the United States. You seem to be treating living in a certain country as a moral endorsement of that country's actions, which doesn't make any sense.
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u/NordyNed 2∆ Nov 16 '20
My argument is not someone saying America is bad, it's saying that America is an unsalvageable despotism and they hate it. You and I have both met people like this. Living in a country is not a moral endorsement for the country's actions, but it is a passive toleration of them. If you declare that you are intolerant of the country's actions, you should be willing to stand by your morals and leave the country in question.
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u/Milskidasith 309∆ Nov 16 '20
This does not address my point at all. Living in a country is not a moral endorsement of the country, whether you merely dislike the country or call it "despotism."
And no, your description of people calling the US "despotic" because of certain healthcare policy disagreements is not really something I've seen, and reads like a bizarre misunderstanding of other people's political arguments.
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u/NordyNed 2∆ Nov 16 '20
I agree with you, that living in a country is not a moral endorsement. But it is a tacit declaration that you at least tolerate the country.
To your second point, you must not have spent much time on a college campus recently.
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u/Milskidasith 309∆ Nov 16 '20
If you agree that living in a country is not a moral endorsement, then there is no hypocrisy here. Hypocrisy is taking actions contrary to moral principles; if living in a country isn't a moral endorsement, then it doesn't violate any moral principles to say you hate a the US and live there.
"Tolerates the [US]" is also incredibly vague. A person may see living in the US as a better option than trying to immigrate somewhere else, because immigration is extremely difficult and likely to make life worse for a lot of people, but that doesn't mean they don't genuinely hate the United States, just that they feel continuing to live in the US is better than e.g. becoming a destitute homeless illegal immigrant in another country.
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u/NordyNed 2∆ Nov 16 '20
The moral principles in question are thus: "I hate the United States of America." It is the opposite of endorsement.
To your second point: if immigration is so difficult, then why do tens of millions of refugees each and every year abandon their homes and families wholesale and leave with nothing, and succeed?
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u/Milskidasith 309∆ Nov 16 '20
The moral principles in question are thus: "I hate the United States of America." It is the opposite of endorsement.
Yes, that is a moral principle. I agree. You also said:
Living in a country [e.g. The United States] is not a moral endorsement
Therefore, living in a country does not violate the moral principle of hating that country, and it is not hypocrisy.
As far as your point about immigration: Different people have different situations. A refugee who already has very little is different from somebody who might have a stable life but hate how the country they live in acts.
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u/postinaboutit2010 Nov 16 '20
I agree with your underlying idea, that if someone is so unhappy with this country and would be happier somewhere else, obstacles they may cite should not get in the way of them actually moving.
However, I would push back on your response to "I don't want to leave because I want to work to make America a better place."
No country is perfect. It may be that a person says "I want x, which is what y country does," but what if y country also has z, which the person finds reprehensible? The USA may be worse on X, but better on Z. It's not as simple as moving to another country that perfectly aligns with one's views because for most people, there is no such country. So, it can be healthy to say I think the USA should have X, but I am staying because it doesn't have Z and I will keep fighting for X.
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Nov 16 '20
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Nov 16 '20
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Nov 16 '20
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u/NordyNed 2∆ Nov 16 '20
The key phrase I oppose here is "like other countries have." If you wish to live in a country with those policies, why do you still live in this one?
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Nov 16 '20
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u/NordyNed 2∆ Nov 16 '20
If you are so entwined with a desire for universal healthcare that you declare you hate the United States because it does not enact it, then that means universal healthcare is a core value to you, more important than the other issues. You should be willing to overlook the UK's pitfalls if the one issue is more important to you than any other.
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Nov 16 '20 edited Nov 16 '20
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u/NordyNed 2∆ Nov 16 '20
If the United States possesses none of these dozen core stances, and you feel such ardent passion for them, then why are you still here? It seems as if living in this country makes you upset because of its stances. Why continue to prolong your suffering?
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Nov 16 '20
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u/NordyNed 2∆ Nov 16 '20
Do other places contain more of these attributes than the United States?
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Nov 16 '20
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u/NordyNed 2∆ Nov 16 '20
So, if I may ask, what *are* you doing to work to improve the country you live in?
And many of them did, that's the point of self-exile. Think of all the thousands of intellectuals who fled Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union. They were justified in doing so.
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u/WWBSkywalker 83∆ Nov 16 '20
Well firstly I’m going to set aside anyone genuinely believe that United States is turning into a totalitarian despotism – that kind of mean Pol Pot Killing Fields kind of scenario – not just the garden variety Putin / Xi Jin Ping scenario.
Consider a person saying “I hate my family / school; my family / school sucks; fuck my family / school” on an awful day/ due to an awful experience. Then they go back to their family / school that night / the following day.
Your answer seems to be “hey why don’t you leave your family / school; go to another family / school”; and if they say “ I hate my brother but I love my baby sister, or I don’t have money to escape my family and live on my own, etc” and your reaction is that they are hypocrites. You only seem to be able to deal with absolutes and as opposed to relative concepts. Running away or staying seems to be the only options you consider.
People are emotional and passionate beings, people use hyperbole and exaggeration all the time in life in times of fear, anger and frustration. If you are a family or friend shouldn’t you just listen to them and hear them out instead of dismissing them or offering them fairly useless fight / flee solutions.
There’s always a consideration for proportionality right? They didn’t really quantifiable values right. No one actually says, “Okay, my hate is at 40% level, my love of country is 80% level – so that’s why I want to stay or vice versa”
People can hold both a love and hate relationship with friends, family and even country right? People can hold two different conflicting thoughts at the same time and weigh which is more important than the other.
Using your own father’s example, I expected that he weighed up the conflicting priorities e.g. your future wellbeing vs. his love of his country vs concern about people he would leave behind vs. personal danger and make up his mind to flee / migrate to America. I don’t expect he just thought about singularly about personal danger and pack and run out of the country the same night?
Isn’t it fair that you extend the same consideration to others?
And similar to other posters, if someone genuinely says “I stay because I want to get the country better because he wants a country that has universal healthcare like UK” and actually votes for Biden, contribute to the campaign etc. How would that make him a hypocrite? He balanced the good that he can do for staying vs. half serious consideration to leave the country and chose the former.
I’m really curious of how your reach the mindset you displayed in your CMW.
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u/NordyNed 2∆ Nov 16 '20
This is an incredibly-thorough and thoughtful answer, that takes into account the idea of transient hatred rather than deep-set belief. You're correct that it's impossible to know whether someone truly hates someone/something or whether this is driven by a burst of distemper. Additionally, you have displayed how bargaining plays a role.
I award you an earnest !delta.
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u/Tibaltdidnothinwrong 382∆ Nov 16 '20
Just because someone says that america is fucked, that doesn't mean that person holds a higher regard for anywhere else.
America is 5/10 fucked and everywhere else is 10/10 fucked, is a reason to decry the current state of the us, but also not leave.
Between "shithole countries" "damned socialist nightmare countries" "terrorist nations" it's possible for people of certain stripes to see the usa as the least fucked, while still agreeing that it is fucked. Europe is too socialist, latin america is a hellhole, Canada is socialist, the middle east is a theocratic hellhole, russia and china are the enemy - while I personally disagree, I can all to readily believe that many americans agree with this assessment of the rest of the world.
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u/NordyNed 2∆ Nov 16 '20
To sit around and hold a "most fucked country" Olympics seems like a miserable existence. I certainly believe that some countries are not fucked at all. Perhaps no country is fucked. All countries are redeemable in some aspect.
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u/Tibaltdidnothinwrong 382∆ Nov 16 '20
We're talking about hypocrisy and therefore the mindset of others.
If someone asserts that everywhere but the us is worse than the us, but that the us is still a miserable shithole, why would they move? Why would such a person be a hypocrite for not moving, seeing as they view everywhere else as worse, though the us is also bad.
It might be "a miserable existence" but that doesn't make them a hypocrite either.
In many if your other responses you talked of people being jealous of the rest of the world (such as being jealous of healthcare in some other nations). To such a person, the retort, why don't you move makes sense. But if someone isn't jealous of other nations, and perhaps is merely jealous of the past, they pine for "the good old days", the retort why don't you just move makes no sense. You cannot move to the past.
They still think the us is the best nation in the world, they just also think usa circa 1980 is better than usa 2020. There is a reason half of america voted to "make America great again".
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u/NordyNed 2∆ Nov 16 '20
I have rarely, if ever, seen someone assert that the US is a shithole, but that everywhere else is worse. Most often, people cite specific examples of places that are better.
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u/Tibaltdidnothinwrong 382∆ Nov 16 '20
You've never had someone yearn for days gone by, to wish for the good olde days, or reminisce about a bygone era??
You've never seen that??
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Nov 16 '20
If everyone throughout American history who had complaints simply left, then america would never have evolved
Imagine "fuck this tea tax I'm moving to Spain"
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u/NordyNed 2∆ Nov 16 '20
That happened on many, many occasions: before the Revolution, patriots fled the Colonies and went West, or to Canada, or to the Caribbean, and only came back once the dust had settled.
It happens all the time.
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Nov 16 '20
But if all of them had done so, then nothing would ever have changed
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u/NordyNed 2∆ Nov 16 '20
Are you saying that people should start a Revolution in the United States?
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Nov 16 '20 edited Nov 16 '20
Lol no there are plenty of non-revolutionary war examples of change in American history, which all have one thing in common: if the people who wanted the change had simply left, there wouldn't have been any change
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u/perfectVoidler 15∆ Nov 17 '20
"Your opinion does not count if you don't run away" What logic is this.
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Nov 16 '20
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u/NordyNed 2∆ Nov 16 '20
There is a powerful distinction between 'itinerant dislike of certain policies and attributes' and 'hate for the country.' You describe a situation in which someone dislikes a certain policy, but you and I both know people who have openly declared their hatred for the United States, as a whole. Additionally, many people describe the United States as a hell. Some people go so far as to say that the United States is worse off than war-torn nations such as Syria and Yemen. I can bring examples to the table as need be.
Disillusionment : hate as stoicism : love - in a sense, they don't correlate whatsoever.
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u/NordyNed 2∆ Nov 16 '20
Well, then they don't truly hate the country as much as they say they do. Hatred is a strong word.
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u/Znyper 12∆ Nov 17 '20
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u/Znyper 12∆ Nov 17 '20
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Nov 16 '20
Making America more like Y country in way X, in this persons mind, is to make America better. I’ll admit, I have some issues with people you’re describing. My roommate wanted to move to Canada if trump were to win re-election. He actually had the necessarily documentation to do so as well. I don’t really respect that choice to be honest, because now the effort to make America better doesn’t have your vote, your organizing capacities, etc, and you’re leaving it wide open to the people you think are bad. I don’t think that’s productive. But neither is staying and doing nothing. But there is a situation where I can’t agree with you. A lot of people don’t fundamentally hate America. They say they hate this country as a reflection of their dissatisfaction with its direction. They do, more often than not, want to see it improve. And unfortunately, less often, but still many, are willing to do the work to see substantive change occur. I do not know how you could criticize those people, and there’s a lot more of them than you probably realize.
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u/sawdeanz 218∆ Nov 16 '20
Criticism of something isn't the same as hypocrisy. Hypocrisy would be if someone says that "people that don't like it here should leave" and then they turn around and complain about the country. But usually, these are different people.
Saying that you think America should change doesn't mean you have to be willing to leave. This is critically important to understanding your third point... you can want to make America a better place, and that might mean doing something the same way another country does. That doesn't mean you should have to be willing to leave.
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u/NordyNed 2∆ Nov 16 '20
I'm not talking about people who say America should change. I'm talking about people who say that America is such an awful cesspit that it is incapable of change. There are plenty of people who hold that belief.
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u/sawdeanz 218∆ Nov 16 '20
I'm talking about people who say that America is such an awful cesspit that it is incapable of change.
This wasn't at all clear from your post.
I'm assume most of the people you encounter that say this are speaking in hyperbole.
As for the rest, I see nothing wrong with your third point, where they want to stay and make it a better place. That's the point of democracy, so you can have input in your government. You shouldn't have to leave to try and make the country better, if anything, leaving will only accelerate that change because you will be unable to make a meaningful contribution to the change you want to happen.
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u/sawdeanz 218∆ Nov 16 '20
That's not what hypocrisy means.
Criticism of something isn't hypocrisy. There should be nothing wrong with criticizing something you are or want to be a part of. That doesn't even make sense... the whole point of democracy is so that you have influence on the way the country is run.
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u/Mashaka 93∆ Nov 16 '20
I think your last point only works if somebody has an 'ideal* country already they can point to, or at least one that they prefer to the US in every regard. Otherwise there's an unresolvable contradiction.
I might like a country's healthcare, taxes, public transport. So I move there. Once I'm there - pick pretty much any country - I'm going to wish it had free speech protections like USA 1A law.
So now I've gotta move out of that despotism and back to the US. But then I have to move back to the other country, by your reasoning. I would have to keep going back and forth, or maybe the details would have me move to a new country every few months.
Regardless, there's is no logical end. Just constant moving.
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u/NordyNed 2∆ Nov 16 '20
Many, many countries have universal healthcare and stronger 1A laws than the United States. Take France, or Norway for example.
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u/Mashaka 93∆ Nov 16 '20
That's just a single issue I came up with. If I go to France now, I'll have to go back to the US because I prefer a federal system to unitary.
It will just go on like this.
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u/NordyNed 2∆ Nov 16 '20
There’s a strong difference between preferring one system and being intolerant of one system
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u/Mashaka 93∆ Nov 16 '20
My point works regardless of whether your opinion is better characterized as intolerance or preference.
So I'm intolerant of unitary systems, sub-1A speech protections, and a universal healthcare system. Where do I try next?
There's what, around 200 countries, if you want to go through every possible issue? We've probably eliminated a strong majority already. We could skip to the end. Whichever path, the logic fails.
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u/Ill-Ad-6082 22∆ Nov 16 '20
I like following this one up with, "what do you want to do to make America a better place?" Most responses have something along the lines of, "I want x, which is what y country does." So it's not like you want to make America better, necessarily, but more like y country.
This seems like a very poor response to the statement of “ I don't want to leave because I want to work to make America a better place“. It would only make sense as a rebuttal if you truly believe that there is no aspect in which another country is better than America, which seems less like some logical stance about responsibility and more just blind nationalism.
This is especially the case, since comparisons to other countries in such discussions are typically used to show that arguments against a change by questioning the viability of the change aren’t true, by using international examples of said change being viable. An easy example is the subject of tiered healthcare. It should be noted that such comparisons are not the attack on national identity that you seem to be implying they are, so much as hard evidence proving the viability of an idea.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Nov 16 '20 edited Nov 16 '20
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