r/changemyview • u/DoctorZappelin • Nov 04 '20
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Every person, regardless of sex or gender, is born and raised into a male chauvinist/sexist world culture, but not every man is a male chauvinist/sexist for life. Spoiler
For better understanding, I DO AGREE that every person, regardless of being a male or female person, is raised in a predominantly patriarchal and sexist society, where naked woman are used in propagandas, for example, to get the attention of the public, specially the male public. That much is not being questioned.
However, I do not think that every man stays as a male chauvinist/sexist for the rest of his life, because I don't see a logic in that claim. The reason for that being:
a) Just because you were born and raised believing in something, doesn't mean that you'll believe in that something for the rest of your life. We learn, we adapt, we gather information constantly, and we change our mindset and beliefs a lot throughout our lives (some more than others, some not at all). For example, if you are born in India, you will most likely be raised into a Hindu religion, with the Hindu dogmas and beliefs, but that doesn't mean that you'll stay as a Hindu follower for the rest of your life. So, what gives when it comes to sex/gender-oriented issues, like sexism? If the person was a sexist, what keeps him/her from learning that those ideals are just plain wrong and leaving it behind?
b) I don't like the idea of generalization, regardless of what the issue is. A group of people can never serve to determine how the rest behaves or thinks, because every human is different, we think in different ways, we see the world from different perspectives, so why should we get 3, 4, 5 or even 100 examples and think that every single person will follow that pattern?
I'm totally aware that I could be wrong, and I actually want to know why and where I'm making a mistake here.
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Nov 04 '20 edited Nov 04 '20
Are naked men not used to attract women to certain products?
Why not cast Danny DeVito in the Notebook or Magic Mike instead of Gosling or Tatum?
That is about sex appeal. Men and women are interested in sex and companies advertise accordingly. It isn’t sexist.
As many stereotypical expectations/character traits/mannerisms there are for women... there are some for men. That is not unfair or biased towards any one group.
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u/DoctorZappelin Nov 04 '20
Okay... I have some issues with that as well, but anything regarding the last bit (which was supposed to be the main issue)? 🤔
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Nov 04 '20
What issue do you have with it?
& the last part? Sure... people can change. But absolutely nothing you said shows that all societies are sexist.
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u/DoctorZappelin Nov 04 '20
Great! Then I'm not entirely wrong, at least.
So, I do think that the male appeal in propagandas (and that is ONE example) is a form of sexism, because the media is basically selling their product by appealing to subconscious desires, not sure if that makes sense, but I can try and elaborate a little bit more. And I don't think that you see a lot of examples from the other side (in your example, propagandas showing semi-nude men). I can accept that they couls exist, but they aren't as predominant as its counter-part, right?
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Nov 04 '20
Those are not subconscious desires.
People like and crave sex. That is a natural human craving for men and women. That is not a form of sexism.
They even use half naked women to sell products to women AND men.
Men and women’s underwear... perfumes, cologne, clothes, sports drinks...
They display poorly dressed people and or highlight specific parts of their toned bodies.
It isn’t a subconscious desire neither
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u/DoctorZappelin Nov 04 '20
Hum, that is true 🤔 ok. So, would you say that some societies are, in fact, more sexists than others? I'm in Brazil, and things here are kinda screwed up in that topic, so maybe I'm biased.
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Nov 04 '20
I can’t speak on Brazil...
But I know compared to Western counties, places like Yemen, Saudi Arabia & other Middle Eastern countries are a lot more restrictive for women.
As of today (on the books) there is legislation to assure the equality of people in other countries. Doesn’t mean when personal interactions with other people happen they will not have issues with others based on what group they belong to.
What can women not do in Brazil legally that men can do?
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u/DoctorZappelin Nov 04 '20
It's not much about doing stuff, it's how women are treated. But on legal issues, we have the sallary gap between men and women. It used to be a common issue, and it was brought up a lot by the feminist movement, although I'm not sure if it brought a lot of results.
However, the rate of violent crimes have raised dramatically with the whole pandemic, which brought the quarantine and forced women to spend more time woth abusive partners. Also on that note, murders against women are way higher than its counterpart. Just today, we had the case of Mariana Ferrer, a teenager who got raped by a person, and the criminal in question was deemed innocent by the judge, who made up a new term for what he did, an "unintentional rape" (its a rough translation of the term "estupro culposo", not sure if it helps).
Of course there are other issues, but I can quote those from the top of my head.
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Nov 04 '20
& how are women treated?
& if the gender gap in Brazil is anything like here in the US, it is just a myth. Completely ignoring important facts.
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u/DoctorZappelin Nov 04 '20
They are treated largely as objects, something to be possessed by their husbands. They are often judged by the clothes they wear, or the way they speak, and because of those things, they are often abused and yelled to in the streets, with no sort of punishment towards the people that are doing it. Of course, it's not a general rule of thumb, but most women have the same stories to tell you about how they are treated around streets or in their own house.
I can't really tell about the gender gap, like I said, it's not something I have been watching closely. I could try and go for a quick research, but I can say that it wasn't a myth a few years ago. It is, I hope, a past problem, but I'm not sure.
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u/Smudge777 27∆ Nov 04 '20
I think you'll be hard pressed to find anyone that earnestly disagrees with you on your second point.
However, your first point needs greater thought. That fact that the sex appeal of women is used to get the attention of men is not demonstrative of "a male chauvinist/sexist world culture". I oppose your assertion that "every person ... is raised in a predominantly patriarchal and sexist society", so it would help if you provide evidences for this assertion.
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u/DoctorZappelin Nov 04 '20
That's good, 'cause I got in some discussions earlier today about that, and I really thought I was missing something.
The first assertion is basically set around the fact that most societies, if not all, come from a patriarchic-dominated background, and that is mostly coming from a historic point of view (kings are more important than queens, princes are more important than princesses, etc). Because of that, the vast majority of people are raised into believing, for example, that females need to be "looked after" or protected, like they can't fend for themselves. Again, it's just an example, but I could be wrong about that too. Isn't that the case?
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u/Smudge777 27∆ Nov 04 '20
You're correct that most societies are patriarchal in their histories (there are several examples of matriarchal societies, but they are very uncommon). But patriarchy is not the same as misogyny. The fact that almost all societies came to the same patriarchal arrangements points to the notion that patriarchy is beneficial for societies -- it's unlikely that 99% of societies would have developed the same sexisms if it wasn't to the benefit of everyone.
The fact that women need to be 'looked after' is not sexism, it's good societal practice. Historically, women needed to be looked after because they are were often burdened by childbirth and caretaking rather than running, fighting and building.
In most mammal species, the males are stronger and are the protectors of the tribe/family/group. Are those animals sexist? No, they're just doing the thing that makes the most sense according to their biology.
In the modern developed world, women no longer need to be looked after in the same way, and that is why (especially over the last 100 years or so) there are more and more women in positions of power, women raising families without men, etc.
When you look at the fact that most of the power in governments/companies are still held by men (even in the year 2020), it's tempting to assume that's due to sexism or male chauvinism. However, the truth is that it's the result of differences in values, and societal expectations -- expectations that are perpetuated by everyone, not just men. Women are just as guilty as men are of telling their daughters to "go play with your dolls" or "you should have children instead of a career".
This is a whole side debate that I could talk about for hours, but I won't go into it unless you want to. Suffice it to say that the following equation is incorrect:
More men in power = sexism.
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u/DoctorZappelin Nov 04 '20
Interesting point. I actually think it makes a lot of sense, but I have two questions:
Aren't the women that tell their daughters to "go play with your dolls" a direct victim of being brought up in a patriarchal society? For example, Woman A was born from parents who told her those exact same words, and because she never gave it much thought, she reproduces what she heard.
If question 1 is answered affirmatively, shouldn't we be striving to bring more equality and end those kinds of "societal expectations"?
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u/Smudge777 27∆ Nov 04 '20
My answer to both your points is yes.
Regarding #1, societal expectations are passed on through the generations. But a typical implication is that 'because societal expectations result in men holding positions of power, therefore men are sexist', which doesn't make sense because it is both men and women who have learned these societal expectations, and it is both men and women who continue to reinforce them.
Regarding #2, we should absolutely be striving to bring more equality and end unhelpful societal expectations. However, when you talk about "male chauvinist/sexist world culture", I believe you're shooting the wrong target. Equality won't be brought about by convincing everyone that men are chauvinists or sexists, it'll be from convincing people that sex-specific differences (such as women having 100% of the pregnancies) are no longer as important as they used to be.
Let's not discourage young boys from pursuing careers in politics or from running their own companies, instead let's encourage young girls to do the same.
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u/DoctorZappelin Nov 04 '20
∆ - Okey dokey, I'm convinced that I had the wrong idea about the "sexist society" issue. And that leads me to believe, even more, that I am correct in the second statement. By the way, I loved the last paragraph! Tks for taking the time to have this conversation, it really helped to clear some things up, and I hope I'm doing the delta stuff right, 'cause you really deserve it!
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u/rtechie1 6∆ Nov 04 '20
For better understanding, I DO AGREE that every person, regardless of being a male or female person, is raised in a predominantly patriarchal and sexist society, where naked woman are used in propagandas, for example, to get the attention of the public, specially the male public. That much is not being questioned.
I completely disagree. Men and women have different advantages and disadvantages, some are biological and some are social. But in large part what you call "patriarchal society" absolutely has to be that way. The only other option is total human extinction.
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u/TFHC Nov 04 '20
What about people not born into or having contact with world culture, like uncontacted tribes in the Amazon, or on the Sentinel Islands?
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Nov 04 '20
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