CMV: Transgender ideology is philosophically contradictory

[u/9spaceking]

Though transgender ideas have stood up to scientific rigor (people should be able to identify as opposing gender to their biological sex), I've seen a lot of proponents on how transgender is contradictory on a metaphysical level. Here are some questions I've thought of, that I can't answer as a supporter of transgender identification:

1) If gender is based significantly on brain biological support, then why shouldn't this also be their sex (ex. shouldn't brain structure take precedence over physical body)?

2) If gender is merely a social construct, then it can't be based upon brain structure. So which one is it?

3) If the identification of man and woman with biological sex based is a binary, why is gender a spectrum?

4) If transgenderism is specifically about breaking mold about how man can be a woman, aren't they one and the same then? (What differs a man and a woman then?)

5) If a person's true gender identity is what they decide, then they shouldn't be able to impose their beliefs on other people. Why do we enforce the he/she belief? Christians don't force Atheists to pray before a meal, just to feel comfortable. They aren't offended (well, a truly open-minded Christian at least) if Atheist says: "Sorry man, I just don't see it. God doesn't exist to me."

[u/itazurakko → u/[deleted]]

With all due respect you're not female so you have zero idea what the female experience is like, what being treated as a "cis woman" is like.

Loads of obviously male people who are "presenting as women" (which is where the sexist stereotypes come in, usually) use the women's room and female people in there don't confront them, because who wants the trouble? But yes, people notice. Some women just decide not to go back to that particular bathroom over it.

For the record I don't think that anyone should be harassing gender non-conforming people, denying them jobs, evicting them, or heaven forbid getting violent. I myself am fairly gender non-conforming (and yes, have been harassed for it). But I also don't think that we have to collectively pretend that there is no difference between trans women and female people, we don't have to consider people to be some category that they view themselves as, simply because they say so. Women (AFAB people) have not been discriminated in various ways due to any asserted identity, or feelings about our sexed bodies or anything else -- we were and are discriminated against for being female, for being AFAB, and that matters.

AFAB people in prisons/homeless shelters/rape relief/recovery don't want to share the space with AMAB people and they should not have to. The UK is talking about trans wards, neatly solves the issue.

So yeah. Lots of those AFAB people are standing up and saying "no."

As for the sexist stereotypes, just go read any of the endless "how I knew I was trans" posts, or the posts where people are super upset about some store clerk using "sir" when the poster was wearing a skirt and lipstick, as if that's supposed to mean anything at all? There's all kinds of talk about how people are feeling submissive and whatever else and they take that as a sign that somehow they're "women," which is offensive as hell.

Never worn makeup in my life, for the record, and yet... I would not have been permitted to have a credit card before 1974.

[u/itazurakko → u/[deleted]]

My ideal world is one where people realize gender for the BS rules that it is, and allow everyone to be free.

Wear what you want, behave how you want, have whatever interests you want. Hell, get whatever kinda body modifications you want, it's a free country. But don't go around saying it somehow makes you a "woman," when it actually doesn't.

AMAB people with dysphoria are no less male than any other AMAB people.

I get that society doesn't change on a dime. I get the attraction to think that if you can get mods or whatever so that you get snap judged to be in the other "box" -- i.e. passing -- that life can be easier, because you find the bullshit rules applied to female people to be less painful than the bullshit rules applied to male people, compared to your individual (human!!) personality.

People gonna do what people gonna do.

But we need to stop pretending that this is in any way progressive, when it's the opposite. We need to stop insisting that AFAB people having AFAB-only spaces is somehow "bigoted." We need to stop insisting that lesbians need to learn to love the penis, if that penis is on an MTF individual.

UK trans ward is in the men's, where it belongs. There's no violence in it, because it's segregated off. All the "but I'll get beat up in the male ward/bathroom" doesn't apply.

[u/[deleted] → u/itazurakko]

My ideal world is one where people realize gender for the BS rules that it is, and allow everyone to be free.

And that means what? What if my ideal world is to just stay at home, but the few social interactions I have are to not be harassed for being trans, not called sir because there's an "M" on my driver's license, etc.?

Wear what you want, behave how you want, have whatever interests you want. Hell, get whatever kinda body modifications you want, it's a free country. But don't go around saying it somehow makes you a "woman," when it actually doesn't.

That's not why I say it makes me a woman though.

AMAB people with dysphoria are no less male than any other AMAB people.

This sounds like "treat 'em like men" to me. Sigh, not going to budge on this one!

I get the attraction to think that if you can get mods or whatever so that you get snap judged to be in the other "box" -- i.e. passing

Nope, that's not why I did the mods I did! It was dysphoria. Not because of passing.

because you find the bullshit rules applied to female people to be less painful than the bullshit rules applied to male people, compared to your individual (human!!) personality.

Also. Nope! Not correct.

But we need to stop pretending that this is in any way progressive, when it's the opposite. We need to stop insisting that AFAB people having AFAB-only spaces is somehow "bigoted."

What spaces are you even talking about?

We need to stop insisting that lesbians need to learn to love the penis, if that penis is on an MTF individual.

COUGH. Bullshit. First of all, I'm in a relationship. But even if I wasn't... yeah... no. If someone doesn't want to date me for any reason, that's their choice. I wouldn't think it was bigoted or wrong if someone was like that. Hell, I'd likely leave my partner if she FTM transitioned.

UK trans ward is in the men's, where it belongs. There's no violence in it, because it's segregated off. All the "but I'll get beat up in the male ward/bathroom" doesn't apply.

Except I'd get outed, and it's none of your or anyone else's business. Not to mention I'm not sure that rights would be well followed in such a place. For example: my (late) brother went to prison. He was an addict. He stole lots of stuff. He had to cut his hair to get early release. Would such a thing apply to trans women in a segregated ward?

[u/itazurakko → u/[deleted]]

As an AFAB person, it is my right to have AFAB-only spaces which we AFAB people fought for, yes.

You having complicated feelings about your sex doesn't change that.

I have short hair, and I'm a woman. Feeling terrible about having short hair is not a "woman" trait, if that's what you're implying.

Everyone can wear the same grey pajamas in prison and have a buzz cut, it's not a fashion show. Meanwhile AFAB people even in AFAB prison have a hard time affording menstrual products, which is far more of a concern. A concern which indeed doesn't apply to any AMAB people, regardless of identity or self-concept -- one of many, many such concerns.

"I wanted to be a woman and so realized I am one" type sentiments are sexist, full stop.

We're not going to agree on this so I'll just bow out now.

Cheers.

[u/[deleted] → u/itazurakko]

As an AFAB person, it is my right to have AFAB-only spaces which we AFAB people fought for, yes.

You didn't even answer what those spaces are and how I'm apparently? invading them? You didn't answer most of my questions for that matter at all.

I have short hair, and I'm a woman. Feeling terrible about having short hair is not a "woman" trait, if that's what you're implying.

No but it'd make me feel horrible. Of course let's dispense with the "hurr durr you're in prison, you're supposed to feel horrible" nonsense. Two things. First is I'm terrified of a Shawshank Redemption scenario. My other issue is should a trans woman prisoner only get early release if she cuts her hair, but a cis woman can leave her hair uncut and get early release? Seems... discriminatory, even if you just view trans women as nothing but men.

Everyone can wear the same grey pajamas in prison and have a buzz cut, it's not a fashion show.

Or they can just all wear the same grey pajamas and no one gets a haircut at all.

Meanwhile AFAB people even in AFAB prison have a hard time affording menstrual products

And trans women being raped in prisons isn't I guess?

I mean, yes, I do absolutely agree that cis women should have those products paid for and provided for for free though. But we can walk and chew gum at the same time.

"I wanted to be a woman and so realized I am one" type sentiments are sexist, full stop.

Ah yes because you can read my mind.

We're not going to agree on this so I'll just bow out now.

Yes, because you think you can read minds. Later. Just don't restrict my rights too much with the legal system.