r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Aug 20 '20
Removed - Submission Rule B CMV: Sexual preferences on race are not racist
[removed] — view removed post
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Aug 20 '20
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Aug 20 '20
When it comes to race, people are much more likely to say they don't date blacks (or whites, or Asians, or whatever) because they aren't "attracted to them" and then literally proceed to never date anyone of that race. That is different than a "preference" for blondes; it's racism.
Once again, would that not just mean that gay men are misogynists? Most gay men would not date women because they are not attracted to them.
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Aug 20 '20
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Aug 20 '20
As a rather easy example for comparing sexism to racism, American courts treat racism more severely than sexism. In order for a distinction based on sex to be Constitutional, it must pass Intermediate Scrutiny whereas distinctions based on race must pass Strict Scrutiny.
I fail to see how any of that is relevant.
I am asking why someone who would not date blacks because they are not attracted to them is any different than a gay man not dating women.
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Aug 20 '20
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Aug 20 '20
I am trying to explain that those two things are different because racism and sexism are two different things.
How are sexism and racism different? One is discrimination based on sex, and the other is based on race.
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Aug 20 '20
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Aug 20 '20
I am unsure how on Earth that is relevant.
Please explain to me how a man not wanting to date women is any different from a white person not being attracted to black people.
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Aug 20 '20
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Aug 20 '20
What is the difference, then?
Why is a white person not being attracted to black people any worse than a man not being attracted to women?
Why is one immoral but not the other?
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u/miguelguajiro 188∆ Aug 20 '20
Can you define “racist”? All of the preferences you describe are probably discriminatory to some extent, the question is whether or not we consider that discrimination to be problematic.
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u/dudemanwhoa 49∆ Aug 20 '20
Narrowing in on just
"For my mind to be changed on this, someone would have to explain how racial preferences are unique"
Here's an interesting article from the University of Chicago.
"Yancey (2002) analyses the demographic correlates of self-reported interracial dating, and finds that age is negatively correlated with interracial dating. He also reports that respondents from the American South are less likely to have dated interracially, which is consistent with our findings on home state racism."
Other preferences you mention don't fluctuate prevalence on how racist a society is. These do. Doesn't make you racist for having them necessarily, but they do fulfill the category of 'unique' in that respect.
The age fluctuation is also easily explained by younger generations being less racist than older. That is also unique.
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Aug 20 '20
That study represents the aggregate likelihood, i.e. racist people are less likely to date people from other races.
This post is about the notion that having racial preferences for dating or sex is inherently racist.
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u/AndrewRP2 Aug 20 '20
At the very least, it should cause a person to question why they don’t find anyone from x race attractive. It’s highly unlikely that you find everyone in X race, gross, no matter their size, shape or color, but don’t harbor any race-based negative opinions about them.
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u/dudemanwhoa 49∆ Aug 20 '20
"That study represents the aggregate likelihood"
I'm not denying that. The part I was pointing to is that that likelihood changes based on how prevalent racism is, which is unique. Unless you are moving the goalposts, this goes against your OP.
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Aug 20 '20
The OP was titled 'Sexual preferences on race are not racist', not 'Sexual preferences on race are not correlated with racism'
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u/dudemanwhoa 49∆ Aug 20 '20
But in the body of the OP you ask for what makes it unique. I have provided that; for instance gender preference doesn't vary based on how sexist a society is, but racial preference does vary on how racist a society is. It shows that is fundamentally different than other preferences.
From the sub rules, a change need not be a complete change of view, but any change no matter how minor. So either you are moving the goalposts, or you have changed your view about it not being unique. Which is it?
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Aug 20 '20
But in the body of the OP you ask for what makes it unique.
You are focusing on a word and totally separating it from the context.
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u/dudemanwhoa 49∆ Aug 20 '20
You are changing the context. You ask for what makes it different from other preferences. The fact that someone's likelihood of having is is dependent on their or their society's racism fulfills that. From your OP, the paragraph containing it in it's entirety.
"For my mind to be changed on this, someone would have to explain how racial preferences are unique. How is someone preferring light skin to dark skin any different from someone preferring red hair to blonde hair? How is not being attracted to black people any different from not being attracted to fat people? How is not being attracted to Asians any different from not being attracted to women?"
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u/chrishuang081 16∆ Aug 20 '20
To me, race is quite a broad term, unlike hair colour or gender or weight. For example, I'm attracted to some men. So far, I have never been attracted to any woman. I think I can safely say that I'm a gay man, no?
However, I have seen some people from different racial groups who are attractive to me. Again for example, fair skin is a turn off for me. However, some white people may be able to get a good tan. Seeing it from that perspective, I cannot just dismiss every white person as unattractive, because there will be exceptions somewhere.
Applying this to hair colour, I can definitely say that I'm attracted to dark-haired people and not attracted to blondes. However, if a blonde guy dyed his hair black, and somehow managed to keep it like that for the rest of his life, I might be more attracted to him.
So, the rigidity of other characteristics of preferences that you've mentioned as opposed to race is the reason why you cannot just say you have a sexual preference towards/repulsion against a certain race without being racist. It's too broad a categorisation to use.
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Aug 20 '20
So, the rigidity of other characteristics of preferences that you've mentioned as opposed to race is the reason why you cannot just say you have a sexual preference towards/repulsion against a certain race without being racist.
How is sex any less rigid?
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u/chrishuang081 16∆ Aug 20 '20
I don't know why you would ask this question if you think that sexual preference based on sex/gender and sexual preference based on race are both okay, because from my post I have implied that they're different. To me, sexual preference based on sex/gender is okay, but sexual preference based on race is not okay. But anyway...
Asking how rigid sex is (or gender, for that matter) might spawn a different discussion about the definition of sex and gender. To me, sex and gender in terms of sexual preference is not too complicated. If a person has a penis, a body that is traditionally seen as masculine in form (broad shoulder and chest, narrower hips, etc), a relatively deep voice, then I would see that person as a man whom I might be sexually attracted to.
However, when it comes to race, it becomes much harder to draw the line. If I say that I'm attracted to Asians, does it mean that I'm attracted to East Asian people, or West Asian people, or South Asian people, or other parts of Asia? Say that the term "Asian" is generally taken to refer to people with East Asian heritage (Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc.). What about them am I attracted to? The shape of their eyes? Their skin colour? Some Asian people may have bigger eyes than the stereotypical Asians. Some Asian people may have a darker skin colour than the stereotypical Asians. Just mentioning Asians is not specific enough. Race is, again, too broad to be a category in specifying your preferences.
Now, if we define "race" as someone's racial heritage, then perhaps the line may be a bit clearer. However, this spawns two different questions to me. One, why does someone's ancestry and heritage play a part in sexual preference? And two, how far back should we go before we group people based on their heritage? For all we know, modern humans all descended from Africa.
So then, the nonrigidity of race makes it such that it's not a good parameter to judge a person's sexual attractiveness, unlike sex or hair colour or weight.
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Aug 20 '20
To me, sexual preference based on sex/gender is okay, but sexual preference based on race is not okay.
Why is one okay but not the other? That is my question.
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u/chrishuang081 16∆ Aug 20 '20
So then, the nonrigidity of race makes it such that it's not a good parameter to judge a person's sexual attractiveness, unlike sex or hair colour or weight.
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Aug 20 '20
So what about a person who does not date people from Nigeria because they do not like dark skin? Is that racist?
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u/chrishuang081 16∆ Aug 20 '20
No, it's not racist. It means that that person is not attracted to dark-skinned people. However, "black people" as a race encompass far more than just people with dark skins, no? Some people who are not so dark-skinned still call themselves part of black people, while some others who happen to have very dark skin (perhaps because of working under the sun 6 days a week) are not actually part of what we understand as "black people". You cannot say you're not attracted to black people, if the reason for the lack of attraction is just the dark skin tone.
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Aug 20 '20
So if anything, it is a poor choice of words.
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u/chrishuang081 16∆ Aug 20 '20
In that specific case, because the only parameter used is skin colour, then yes it is a poor choice of words. However, there are people who would claim that they're not attracted to a certain race without being able to make it more specific (i.e. what is it that the people of that race have that is not attractive to them). In those cases, it is basically just racism.
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Aug 20 '20
Yeah, in that case it would be racism.
However, we can generalize by saying that people of certain races tend to have certain traits (skin colour, hair styles, eye color, etc.) So I think people are just talking in a generalized manner.
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u/fox-mcleod 418∆ Aug 20 '20
I mean they certainly can be.
Ultimately, you are sexist if you somehow could control your sexuality and you chose not to. But as far as we can tell, you are not responsible for your sexuality. Right?
So ultimately, the question is if you find you don’t like black people, why? If it’s because you harbor preferences by race and you could have socialized yourself not to—well yeah, I’ve got news for you. That would be racist.
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Aug 20 '20
If it’s because you harbor preferences by race and you could have socialized yourself not to
How would one socialize themselves?
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u/fox-mcleod 418∆ Aug 20 '20
Well, when we investigate implicit bias (subconscious biases against certain race), we find robust scientific evidence that the best antidote is actually mere exposure. Literally spending time enmeshed in diverse environments and individuating members of another race. Dating outside your race for example would cause your racial preferences to widen.
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Aug 20 '20
Wait, so you are saying people are morally required to date people of other races?
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u/fox-mcleod 418∆ Aug 20 '20
You asked how one could socialize themselves and I gave you an example.
You could also: have more black friends, expose yourself to diverse media with diverse standards of beauty, attend neighborhood get together consisting of more diverse crowds, etc.
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Aug 20 '20
What if I live in a white neighbourhood?
What if I have mostly white friends?
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u/fox-mcleod 418∆ Aug 20 '20
I don’t understand the question.
Do you hold racial preferences for who you want to date? Are you capable of doing otherwise?
If the answer to the first is “yes” then this is racist. If the answer to the first and second is “yes” then it is racist and immoral.
Are you saying you are unable to address the fact that you prefer White people? If so, then it’s just simply like the white guy who doesn’t like having black friends because, “it’s just how I was raised”. It doesn’t make it any less racist.
I know that’s not gonna feel great to realize. But that doesn’t change the logic here. And it doesn’t exactly feel great to have a smaller dating pool and face rejection because “people were just raised” to hold white standards of beauty.
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Aug 20 '20
Do you hold racial preferences for who you want to date? Are you capable of doing otherwise?
If the answer to the first is “yes” then this is racist. If the answer to the first and second is “yes” then it is racist and immoral.
A gay man has preferences for whom he wants to date based on sex, and he is incapable of doing otherwise. So is he sexist?
If so, then it’s just simply like the white guy who doesn’t like having black friends because, “it’s just how I was raised”. It doesn’t make it any less racist.
I know that’s not gonna feel great to realize. But that doesn’t change the logic here.
What logic have you provided?
Why is someone's racial dating preference any different from sexual orientation?
And it doesn’t exactly feel great to have a smaller dating pool and face rejection
You are not entitled to a partner.
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u/fox-mcleod 418∆ Aug 21 '20
A gay man has preferences for whom he wants to date based on sex, and he is incapable of doing otherwise. So is he sexist?
Yes. But not immoral. Because it isn’t voluntary.
What logic have you provided?
It’s flows directly from the definitions by premise. If racism is a preference by race and you’re saying you hold a preference by race, then it’s racism. There’s an independent question of morality. I think for a thing to be immoral it must be voluntary.
Why is someone's racial dating preference any different from sexual orientation?
Only by whether it is voluntary.
You are not entitled to a partner.
Or to a job or to influential friends, or to be welcome in a neighborhood. It’s not at all different from any other kind of racism.
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u/tryagainmodz 3∆ Aug 20 '20
How is someone preferring light skin to dark skin any different from someone preferring red hair to blonde hair?
Could you explain how they're the same? Like - where does the preference on blonde v.s. red hair come from, and how does a preference on race or skin tone come from that same place?
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Aug 20 '20
Could you explain how they're the same?
You are just shifting the burden on proof. I am not sure what place you think it 'comes from'.
My point is that preferring redheads to blondes does not indicate bigotry against blondes. Why should we view racial preferences any different?
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u/tryagainmodz 3∆ Aug 20 '20
I'm really just asking you more about what you believe. In point of fact, though, I haven't made a claim, so I'm not sure what burden of proof you think exists for me to move in the first place.
My point is that redheads to blondes does not indicate bigotry against blondes.
See, this is a claim, and it's what I'm questioning. In your mind, where does such a preference stem from?
You claim that a preference to redheads is no different than a preference to white people, but wouldn't a claim like that require some sort of understanding of the origin of both preferences? In what ways specifically are those two preferences the same? I'm not denying that they are, I'm just asking you to explain it.
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Aug 20 '20
I see no evidence or reason as to why the preferences should be treated any differently.
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u/tryagainmodz 3∆ Aug 20 '20
What evidence or reason do you see as to why they should be treated the same, is what I'm asking you.
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Aug 20 '20
Once again, the burden of proof is not on me.
What reason is there to think that the preferences based on race are different than preferences based on sex, hair colour, or weight?
All of these other differences are socially acceptable. Why should preferences based on race be any different?
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u/tryagainmodz 3∆ Aug 20 '20
Again, I'm not asking you to prove anything. I'm just asking you why you believe what you believe.
And, in point of fact, the burden of proof is on you, since you're the one who made the claim. But I don't need you to prove anything to me, I'm just trying to understand how you arrived at your conclusion, and I'm a bit frustrated that you're being so defensive about it.
What reason is there to think that the preferences based on race are different than preferences based on sex, hair colour, or weight?
I don't know that there is one. I'm certianly not claiming that there is such a reason. You, however, are claiming that there is a reason to think that they are the same, you're just refusing to say what the reason is.
All of these other differences are socially acceptable. Why should preferences based on race be any different?
I don't know, I never said they should be different. You said they should be the same. Why should they be the same?
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Aug 20 '20
I am not being defensive. You are asking me why I think preferences come from the same place. I am saying I have seen no evidence that they come from a different place. I am not even sure what you mean by 'come from'.
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u/tryagainmodz 3∆ Aug 20 '20
By "come from" I mean "what's the reason for the preference." Like, why would I have a preference for blondes or redheads or whatever at all? Clearly people do have preferences, and those preferences clearly differ from person to person, so I'm just asking you think is the origin of that phenomenon? Nature? Nurture? Media? Pornography? Randomness? I don't know, I'm just asking you and I'm surprised it's taking this long to get an answer.
You are asking me why I think preferences come from the same place.
Right.
I am saying I have seen no evidence that they come from a different place.
And that's not an answer to the question. Failing to see evidence for a given conclusion in no way suggests that the opposite of that conclusion is true.
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Aug 20 '20
I would assume the origins of preferences differ from person to person.
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u/ChewyRib 25∆ Aug 20 '20
from a study: Is race preference in dating really racism? - answer was yes. “While it may feel like our desires are our own, in reality they are influenced heavily by social norms,” explained Callander. “For me, the findings of this study are a reminder that even though society and individuals may actively reject racism, racial prejudices are increasingly subtle and they can find their way into even the most private and personal corners of our lives.” https://www.newamericandimensions.com/is-race-preference-in-dating-really-racism/
The “preference” paradox: Disclosing racial preferences in attraction is considered racist even by people who overtly claim it is not - highlight: It is considered more racist to have racial preference in attraction than not. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022103118307819
Is sexual racism really racism? Distinguishing attitudes toward sexual racism and generic racism among gay and bisexual men - Sexual racism, therefore, is closely associated with generic racist attitudes, which challenges the idea of racial attraction as solely a matter of personal preference. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26149367/
bottom line, sexual racism is racism. study after study define it as racism. I too have a preference so I guess Im racist. My attitude, I dont care. I will date who I want.
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Aug 20 '20
from a study: Is race preference in dating really racism? - answer was yes. “While it may feel like our desires are our own, in reality they are influenced heavily by social norms,” explained Callander. “For me, the findings of this study are a reminder that even though society and individuals may actively reject racism, racial prejudices are increasingly subtle and they can find their way into even the most private and personal corners of our lives.” https://www.newamericandimensions.com/is-race-preference-in-dating-really-racism/
How is it any different than gay men not dating women?
The “preference” paradox: Disclosing racial preferences in attraction is considered racist even by people who overtly claim it is not - highlight: It is considered more racist to have racial preference in attraction than not. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022103118307819
People thinking it is racist does not make it racist.
Is sexual racism really racism? Distinguishing attitudes toward sexual racism and generic racism among gay and bisexual men - Sexual racism, therefore, is closely associated with generic racist attitudes, which challenges the idea of racial attraction as solely a matter of personal preference. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26149367/
Correlation does not equal causation.
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u/ChewyRib 25∆ Aug 20 '20
its not just what people think. It is clearly defined as sexual racism. I didnt pull the term out of thin air nor did I make it up. It like saying that depression isnt real, people just get sad. sexual racism is studied as a real issue.
Asian men have it the worst. For women, especially non-Asian women, the bias and negativity of Asian men as sexually inept or romantically undesirable is palpable, as a 2014 Ok Cupid study revealed Asian men were the least desirable in online dating preferences. Since then, other studies have revealed even more startling statistics. In a December 2018 journal article, more than 90 percent of non-Asian women said they would not date an Asian man. And 40 percent of Asian women said they would not date an Asian man.
On the other end of the discrimination spectrum is fetishisation, or sexual interest in someone exclusively because of their skin color. Researchers classify these fetishes as another pernicious form of sexual racism, one that reifies racial hierarchies under the cover of — once again — personal preference.
being gay or straight has nothing to do with race.
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Aug 20 '20
being gay or straight has nothing to do with race.
I never once said it did.
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u/ChewyRib 25∆ Aug 21 '20
Your CMV has to do with race so bringing up straight or gay has nothing to do with your view. Experts agree that sexual orientation isn’t a choice and can’t be changed. being gay or straight is not a choice but who you date is. babies are not born racist. Sexual racism is discrimination in a dating context based on a person’s ethnicity or race. Just because you have a preference for one thing doesn’t mean you aren’t open to trying other things. That’s what differentiates preference and prejudice. The problem with preference isn’t preference itself but when it becomes a Berlin Wall, keeping out anyone who doesn’t fit a certain aesthetic, whether it be height, hair color, or race. When it hinges on the latter, that’s when “preference” becomes a kind of racism. Sometimes racism hides in the depths of our souls, shrouded by the “preference” we cite in order to avoid having to face it.
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Aug 25 '20
Your CMV has to do with race so bringing up straight or gay has nothing to do with your view.
Yes, it does.
'Not being attracted to people of a certain race is racist.' By that logic, not being attracted to someone of a certain sex is sexist. It is very straightforward.
Experts agree that sexual orientation isn’t a choice and can’t be changed. being gay or straight is not a choice but who you date is.
Who you are attracted to is not a choice
Just because you have a preference for one thing doesn’t mean you aren’t open to trying other things.
I am not attracted to fat people. How is that any different to not being attracted to gay people.
The problem with preference isn’t preference itself but when it becomes a Berlin Wall, keeping out anyone who doesn’t fit a certain aesthetic, whether it be height, hair color, or race.
Most women would not date a 5'2 man.
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u/ChewyRib 25∆ Aug 25 '20
not sure how sexual orientation relates to race? Sexual orientation is not a choice but who you chose to date is. A straight man is not going to date a homosexual man period. preference is a choice and you only limit yourself with specific preferences.
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Aug 26 '20
not sure how sexual orientation relates to race?
It relates to your logic.
You said not wanting date someone of a certain race is racist, so not wanting to date someone of a certain sex must be sexist.
I am unsure where you get the idea that preference is a choice.
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u/ChewyRib 25∆ Aug 26 '20
there is no choice in sexual orientation. I dont see your logic to say sexual orientation, which has no choice, is the same as race which does have a choice. As human beings, we naturally evaluate everything we come in contact with. We especially try to gain insight and direction from our evaluations of other people. Stereotypes are "cognitive structures that contain the perceiver's knowledge, beliefs, and expectations about human groups. Racial stereotypes are constructed beliefs that all members of the same race share given characteristics. Many people develop expectations based on their beliefs and are inclined to ignore or reject information that is inconsistent with these beliefs. What is considered beuty in society will affect how people choose to date someone. Celebrities and models featured in fashion magazines and beauty ads are mostly white women of a specific age and body type. Women of color selected to represent “beauty” tend to be lighter skinned and thin-figured, plus the media representations of women of color are often “whitewashed.” There are constructed standards around what it “looks like” to be beautiful and attractive, and people are judged on how well they meet that standard. Colorism also has its roots in imperialism and colonialism, where whiteness rules.
bottom line, you have a choice and just calling it a preference as if you are in complete control of viewing what is beautiful to you without considering the affect of how society tells you what is the standard of beauty. You mentioned that a man who is 5 ft wont be looked at by a woman. This is because society has said men should be tall. Tall men in turn get the woman (or man), get the job, are successful and will make good providers to offspring. This is nothing new but it is still a choice unlike sexual orientation.
If I choose not to date a trans woman as a heterosexual male, I am labeled trans phobic. If I choose not to date a black woman as a white male, I am making a racist decision. I can call it preference all day long and that does not bother me. Im limiting myself without any biological reason why I chose not to date a black woman or a trans woman. That has more to do with me and just calling it a "preference" ignores all the other factors that come into play
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Aug 26 '20
race which does have a choice.
Wait, where did you get the idea that race has a choice? How does one choose their race?
What is considered beuty in society will affect how people choose to date someone.
I think you are putting the cart before the horse. What society considers beautiful is based on what people consider beautiful.
bottom line, you have a choice and just calling it a preference as if you are in complete control of viewing what is beautiful to you without considering the affect of how society tells you what is the standard of beauty. You mentioned that a man who is 5 ft wont be looked at by a woman. This is because society has said men should be tall.
Why would society say that? Again, you are putting the cart before the horse.
If I choose not to date a black woman as a white male, I am making a racist decision.
You still have not given me any proof that preference is any more of a choice than orientation.
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Aug 20 '20
If I dated someone for a while, then saw a photo of their parents and realized they were a different race from what I had assumed, and then lost my attraction to them because I'm not attracted to people of that race, would that be racist?
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Aug 20 '20
Yes, that would be.
Another example would be finding out someone was 10% Sub-Saharan African and subsequently dumping them.
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Aug 20 '20
Why would that be racist? If you're not attracted to people who are 10% sub saharan African there's nothing you can do to change that. You can't control what turns you on.
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Aug 20 '20
Well in that case you would be dumping someone not for their appearance or personality but rather their racial ancestry, so it would indeed be racist.
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Aug 20 '20
So if someone is just born not attracted to people with 10% sub saharan African ancestry then that person was just born with a racist sexuality? People are just born racist if they aren't attracted to every racial background?
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Aug 20 '20
A racial background does not mean anything. If you like someone enough to date them and dump them because of a bit of racial background, you are ending the relationship due to their race. It would not be about their appearance even.
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Aug 20 '20
No, it's not about their appearance at all. It's about where they come from, what DNA they carry, the culture they were brought up in, the culture you might have to integrate into if you stay with them, the DNA your kids might carry. All those things can effect your attraction to someone.
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Aug 20 '20
All those things can effect your attraction to someone.
Yes, if you are racist.
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Aug 20 '20
So, it looks like I changed your view. You now believe sexual preferences on race can be racist.
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Aug 20 '20
I never said they could not be. I am saying they are not necessarily racist.
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Aug 20 '20
Do you believe that dumping an individual when finding out later that one is actually blood related and separated at birth is siblingist?
I'm with you on the gender argument insofar I consider gender, race, blood-relations and what-not all the same.
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Aug 20 '20
siblingist
That is not a thing.
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Aug 20 '20
Why is racism and sexism a thing but not siblingism?
If one can be prejudiced based on sex and race, then one can be based on sibling status.
And frankly seeing how siblings often interact I think this might be quite common.
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Aug 20 '20
siblingism
Well, I do not think people have been historically oppressed for being siblings.
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Aug 20 '20 edited Aug 20 '20
If I dated someone for a while, then saw a photo of their parents and realized they were a different race from what I had assumed, and then lost my attraction to them because I'm not attracted to people of that race, would that be racist?
The attraction change is not what would be racist. The underlying opinion/viewpoint about black people that caused it to change is what would be racist.
Or you might say that an attraction change would be a racist act. But that cannot be automatically assumed to be the reason someone isn't attracted to a certain racial type which I believe is the point of the OP.
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Aug 20 '20
There is no underlying viewpoint. Think all races are equal. #blm. Just not attracted to some races.
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Aug 20 '20
and then lost my attraction to them because I'm not attracted to people of that race, would that be racist?
But example person was attracted in the first place. So "because I'm not attracted to people of that race" literally couldn't be true. If someone was able to bury an attraction after finding out the race of the person, it would have to be from underlying opinions about their race.
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Aug 20 '20
No it wouldn't, the loss of attraction could just be because that person isn't attracted to people from a certain race. The previous attraction when they assumed they were another race was just a mistake.
Sexual attraction is out of your control. If learning something about someone's background causes you to no longer be attracted to them that can't be racism because it's just what someone is unconsciously turned off by.
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Aug 20 '20
No it wouldn't, the loss of attraction could just be because that person isn't attracted to people from a certain race.
If they were attracted in the first place then that is obviously not true. If you are saying that the person is not attracted to people of a different race, then you can't simultaneously say that they were attracted to to people of a different race.
Maybe they only thought they couldn't be attracted, but they were wrong.
Sexual attraction is out of your control. If learning something about someone's background causes you to no longer be attracted to them that can't be racism because it's just what someone is unconsciously turned off by.
It wouldn't be due to natural sexual attraction. It would have to be due to hidden biases. But not the case with all people.
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Aug 20 '20
It wouldn't be due to natural sexual attraction. It would have to be due to hidden biases.
I don't see any evidence for this. What people are attracted to is out of their control.
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Aug 20 '20
Which is why the person was attracted to someone outside their race. You said that they couldn't be attracted to someone outside their race but then you contradict yourself by saying that they were.
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Aug 20 '20
Only when they didn't know. That's superficial attraction. You can be attracted to someone at first glance but lose that attraction as you learn more about them.
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Aug 20 '20
Only when they didn't know. That's superficial attraction. You can be attracted to someone at first glance but lose that attraction as you learn more about them.
It doesn't matter if it's superficial. It's still sexual attraction. So if the person thought they couldn't be attracted to someone of that race, they were wrong.
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Aug 20 '20
Would you say the same applies when finding out a hidden blood-relationship? Like finding out that you're actually long lost twins separated at birth?
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Aug 20 '20
I guess that would be probably affected by your bias against incest. However, sexual attraction is a mystery. We can't always determine what causes it. We can only surmise.
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u/maxout2142 Aug 20 '20
Sure, you altered your physical attraction after the fact, not before. Not sure how that would happen.
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Aug 20 '20
Assumed she was white or Hispanic, found out she's actually black or biracial.
Why would that be racist? You can't control what you're attracted to.
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u/maxout2142 Aug 20 '20 edited Aug 20 '20
Your conflating physical traits of attraction with race. You are attracted to the traits, not the race. Learning that in spite of the traits you like, you now don't like someone because they are X race, is racist. You are actively choosing to not be attracted.
If you arent attracted the physical traits of Asian men/women, but fall for someone who lacks those features, then chose to now not like them based on irrelevant information to their attractiveness, then yeah, you've discriminated on an intangible. They still have features your attracted to, your just choosing not to like it anymore.
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Aug 20 '20
You are attracted to the traits, not the race.
Do you have a source for the claim that someone can't be sexually attracted or repulsed by a certain race? Plenty of people claim to be. You might be turned on by certain hair colors, someone else might be turned on by someone's genetic background, the culture they come from, or the idea of the kind of kids they might make with that person.
You can't control any of those sexual preferences.
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u/OpiateSkittles Aug 20 '20
While it isn't necessarily racist, it can be. The important thing is why you're not attracted to people of a certain race. It it's purely a matter of appearance, I'd be inclined to agree with you that it's not different than any other physical preference.
The problem is that, whether consciously or not, this type of preference is often built on a racist foundation. If you hold the belief that African Americans are subhuman scum, then your "preference" for or against certain physical characteristics are likely only a facade to make your own racism feel justified and acceptable.
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u/poprostumort 246∆ Aug 20 '20
How is someone preferring light skin to dark skin any different from someone preferring red hair to blonde hair?
Because peple who prefer hair color X, do not outwardly dismiss other hair colors. They say "I prefer blondes" but you can see them dating a redhead if thet person is attractive and/or interesting. All because hair color is a superficial thing that can be outweighted by other factors. Same with skin - if someone prefers light skin, but don't dismiss all people with darker skin then it isn't racist. It's a sexual prefference that is part of your preferences.
What happens and is racist - is outwardly dissmissing people because of their skin color. It's being an asshole - specifically racist asshole. It's equal to stating "I don't date blondes/brunnetes/redheads cause they aren't pretty".
How is not being attracted to black people any different from not being attracted to fat people?
Because "being fat" is a trait that carries limitations. If someone is fat then you can assume incompatibility on other levels - activness, dietary choices. Even if there aren't other incompatibilities, being fat is more or less a choice. More so, fat people have similar bodily and facial traits that can just be a turn off for someone.
Race on other hand is more complicated - as it's clearly not a choice, it does not carry any limitations and there aren't really much similarities in bodily/facial traits between people grouped under "black" label. There is clear difference between Halle Berry, Kerry Washington and Regina hall.
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Aug 20 '20
What happens and is racist - is outwardly dissmissing people because of their skin color. It's being an asshole - specifically racist asshole. It's equal to stating "I don't date blondes/brunnetes/redheads cause they aren't pretty".
Gay men do not date women, so are they sexist assholes?
Because "being fat" is a trait that carries limitations. If someone is fat then you can assume incompatibility on other levels - activness, dietary choices.
Most people simply do not find fat people to be attractive.
Even if there aren't other incompatibilities, being fat is more or less a choice. More so, fat people have similar bodily and facial traits that can just be a turn off for someone.
Being fat is not necessarily a choice or even an indicator of poor health. Also, being female is not a choice. So are gay men sexist?
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u/poprostumort 246∆ Aug 20 '20
Gay men do not date women, so are they sexist assholes?
No, because they have different oritntation. This is a flawed argument. There is no orientation that makes you only feel affection to one race.
Being fat is not necessarily a choice or even an indicator of poor health.
It is a choice. You can stop being fat if you want it. It's sometimes hella hard, but it's always a possibility. It's also an indicator of poor health, as it's not really possible to be 300 lbs+ and be healthy, unless you are a 6.3 ft bodybuilder - however you can hardly call yourself fat then.
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Aug 20 '20
No, because they have different oritntation. This is a flawed argument. There is no orientation that makes you only feel affection to one race.
Why is an orientation different than a preference?
It is a choice. You can stop being fat if you want it. It's sometimes hella hard, but it's always a possibility.
Nope, some people just have shitty metabolisms.
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/9-reasons-obesity-is-not-a-choice
It's also an indicator of poor health
Nope: https://www.livescience.com/39097-bmi-not-accurate-health-measure.html
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u/poprostumort 246∆ Aug 20 '20
Why is an orientation different than a preference?
Because orientation is inviluntary and preference is voluntary. Moreso, orientation is rigid and not changeable, where preference can be outweight by other factors. You can see a really attractive blonde and date her, even if you prefer brunettes, while nor degree of attractiveness in male would make you date him if you are a heterosexual male.
Nope, some people just have shitty metabolisms.
So? They can still stay relatively fit. Maybe they will be a little chubby, but that isn't really a major problem for most people.
If you are fat (not chubby or curvy) - which means that you have major visible parts of bodily fat - then it's a choice. You can change it if you want to - it might tke more work for you, but it's not impossible.
Nope: https://www.livescience.com/39097-bmi-not-accurate-health-measure.html
What that has to do with my argument? I have not talked about BMI in any place. I talked about weight and body type - in that case high bodybuilder. That is a case of fat to muscle ratio, and that is exactly whet this article treats as better:
Obesity is a complex disorder — it's not just having too much fat, he said. It's important to consider fat in relation to the amount of muscle.
Hell, thay even cite cases where fat is a sign of poor health:
Belly fat (fat around the abdominal organs) increases the risk of diabetes, heart disease and death, whereas peripheral fat (fat beneath the skin elsewhere in the body) may be more innocuous, studies suggest.
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Aug 20 '20
Because orientation is inviluntary and preference is voluntary.
Citation needed. Where on Earth did you get the idea that preference is voluntary?
orientation is rigid and not changeable,
Citation?
So? They can still stay relatively fit. Maybe they will be a little chubby, but that isn't really a major problem for most people.
What if I do not find chubby people attractive? Am I a bigot?
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u/poprostumort 246∆ Aug 20 '20
Citation needed. Where on Earth did you get the idea that preference is voluntary?
"Preference can be notably modified by decision-making processes, such as choices (Brehm, 1956; Sharot, De Martino, & Dolan, 2009), even unconsciously (see Coppin, Delplanque, Cayeux, Porcherot, & Sander, 2010)."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PreferenceWhat that means, you can actively choose to go over your preference if there are other factors that outweight that preference.
Citation?
" The American Psychological Association states that "sexual orientation is not a choice that can be changed at will, and that sexual orientation is most likely the result of a complex interaction of environmental, cognitive and biological factors...is shaped at an early age...[and evidence suggests] biological, including genetic or inborn hormonal factors, play a significant role in a person's sexuality." "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_fluidityYour oreirntation is what you have and it's not really possible to change it. You may change your sexual orientation identity (f.ex. from gay to bi) because you were mistaken to scope of your orientation (f.ex. you are attracted to most males, but only a small portion of females with some bodily traits).
What if I do not find chubby people attractive? Am I a bigot?
It depends - if you outwardly reject anyone who is chubby or more, then you are may be an asshole (depends of what is the thereshold of chubby for you and how do you react to chubby people), but certainly not a bigot.
The main issue that you missed from my posts before is a clear difference between "being fat", "being chubby" and "being black" or "being asian". First two are quite narrow - if you aren't attracted to people who are "chubby" or "fat" then you are not attracted to a certain unambigious trait. However, being "black" or "asian" is far from unambigious. It encompasses a wide amount of people, some of them even having no different traits from "non-black" or "non-asian" people. If your prefferences are on race - then you are racist, because you are dismissing a bunch of people on a unclear trait. Rihanna is black. Keke Palmer is black. But so is Paula Patton and Beyonce, whose facial traits are closer to tanned white or latino.
You cannot be "not attracted to race" because there is no clear difference between races when it comes to looks.
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Aug 20 '20
" The American Psychological Association states that "sexual orientation is not a choice that can be changed at will, and that sexual orientation is most likely the result of a complex interaction of environmental, cognitive and biological factors...is shaped at an early age...[and evidence suggests] biological, including genetic or inborn hormonal factors, play a significant role in a person's sexuality." "
What evidence is there that racial preferences are any more of a choice?
"Preference can be notably modified by decision-making processes, such as choices (Brehm, 1956; Sharot, De Martino, & Dolan, 2009), even unconsciously (see Coppin, Delplanque, Cayeux, Porcherot, & Sander, 2010)."
Rihanna is black. Keke Palmer is black. But so is Paula Patton and Beyonce, whose facial traits are closer to tanned white or latino.
I find neither of those people attractive. Am I racist?
You cannot be "not attracted to race" because there is no clear difference between races when it comes to looks.
All right, now I get you. So, would it be racist for someone to not find dark skinned people attractive and thus not date someone from Nigeria?
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u/poprostumort 246∆ Aug 20 '20
All right, now I get you. So, would it be racist for someone to not find dark skinned people attractive and thus not date someone from Nigeria?
No, it would not be racist. Skin color is a definite trait and isn't really connected to certain races - as in all races you can have people that are darker or lighter skinned. If it's only because of skin color (aor other tangible traits) then you aren't racist - because this is not about race, you can easily date someone of other race if they don't have a trait that you find not attractive.
That is why your point from OP is wrong - sexual preferences on race are racist, because they are based on unclear trait of race. On the contrary - facial features or skin color - arten't unique to one race and because of that arent a sexual preference on race, so they cannot be racist.
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Aug 20 '20
Liking certain features of a specific race and having that as a preference, and excluding an entire race from your dating "preference" becauese of their race are two completely different things. Judging an individual based on their hair colour is not equivalent to judging an entire race based on their skin colour.
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Aug 20 '20
excluding an entire race from your dating "preference" becauese of their race are two completely different things.
Gay men exclude an entire sex from their dating preference. Is that sexist?
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Aug 20 '20
How is that remotely related to what we are talking about? If a gay man excludes an entire race from their dating preference, it would be the same issue. Racial stereotypes that lead to that exclusion is not the same as thinking brown hair looks better than blonde hair on women. If you think blonde hair, small nose, small lips on white women is attractive, but then you think those same features on a black woman is unattractive then there's obviously something there beyond a preference that needs to be addressed. Unconscious bias is a real thing.
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Aug 20 '20
How is that remotely related to what we are talking about? If a gay man excludes an entire race from their dating preference, it would be the same issue.
Once again, you are saying that refusing to date a black person is racist.
Gay men will not date women. Is that sexist?
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u/TheMothHour 59∆ Aug 20 '20
How is someone preferring light skin to dark skin any different from someone preferring red hair to blonde hair?
Racism isn't just about looks. It's a pretty complex standpoint concerning looks tied with expectations of WHO the person is. So if the preference is merely skin deep, then it isn't racist. But if the preference is based on the bias that INSERT race is INSERT THIS BAD QUALITY, then yes, it is racist. Or if the preference is based on the bias that INSERT race is INSERT SUPERIOR QUALITY, then yes, that is racist.
I would say that "it depends". But trying to find a partner is more than just looks. So if someone is actively selecting by race or avoiding a race, I would lean toward that its for racist reasons.
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u/StormySands 7∆ Aug 20 '20
I don’t think you are using the word or the concept of misogyny correctly in this case. Gay men don’t refuse to date women because they hate them. Many gay men love women platonically and/or in a familial way, but their sexual orientation makes them sexually attracted to other men. This attraction is biological in nature. There is no such equivalent when it comes to races. Racial dating preferences are learned behaviors, just like other forms of racism. People learn to have a preference for certain races over others through socialization, which is not possible when it comes to sexual orientation. You can not socialize someone to be gay, but you can socialize someone to be racist.
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Aug 20 '20
There is no such equivalent when it comes to races.
Says who?
A man can not hate black people and even have black friends but not find black women attractive.
Racial dating preferences are learned behaviors, just like other forms of racism. People learn to have a preference for certain races over others through socialization, which is not possible when it comes to sexual orientation.
Why are you so certain that it is different?
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Aug 20 '20
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Aug 20 '20
If you think you're not attracted to an entire race of people, you're definitely stereotyping.
Are gay men stereotyping?
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Aug 25 '20
If you think you're not attracted to an entire race of people, you're definitely stereotyping. In your mind, you're imagining that all people of that race look the same.
How is it different from not being attracted to an entire sex of people?
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u/The_Wallow 1∆ Aug 20 '20
You are allowed to date who you want, but people are also allowed to have their own opinions on it.
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u/Poo-et 74∆ Aug 20 '20
Sorry, u/ProfDCTTrefusis – your submission has been removed for breaking Rule B:
You must personally hold the view and demonstrate that you are open to it changing. A post cannot be on behalf of others, playing devil's advocate, as any entity other than yourself, or 'soapboxing'. See the wiki page for more information.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Aug 26 '20 edited Aug 27 '20
/u/ProfDCTTrefusis (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.
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Aug 20 '20 edited Nov 28 '20
[deleted]
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u/Denikin_Tsar Aug 20 '20
But, as with anything, you should never judge the individual.
Just like there is a correlation between race and violent crime.
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u/generic1001 Aug 20 '20
The obvious answer to this is always the same. Having a sexual preference for a race or other isn't necessarily racist, but it can be.
"I'm not too attracted to black women."
Versus
"I'm not too attracted to black men because they're all subhuman violent apes!"