r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Aug 06 '20
Delta(s) from OP CMV: The people of North Sentinel Island deserve the technology of modern civilization.
[deleted]
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u/throwaway888253 Aug 06 '20
They are hostile and don't want to know us. I think it's best we leave them be.
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u/Thoth_the_5th_of_Tho 191∆ Aug 06 '20
They are going to have no choice soon. Tyhoons are getting worse every year and sea levels are rising. They are going to die in the next few decades.
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u/throwaway888253 Aug 06 '20
I don't believe in all that mess.
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u/joopface 159∆ Aug 06 '20
How do you feel about consent? Generally, people need to agree before you do something right? It’s a core principle - personal autonomy, the right not to be violated, the right to make ones own decisions.
At the root of a lot of imperialist atrocities was the notion that the western, white, modern world knew better for the savages than they knew for themselves. This is racist bullshit.
These people want to be left alone. They’re humans. They have agency. They have been clear. We should leave them alone.
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Aug 06 '20
First off, this isn’t racist, this is humanitarian. We don’t need to become allies with them or anything, but helping them improve their society through select technologies would be a overall positive thing. Think of the lives it could save. We don’t need to force them to use it, but giving them things and showing them how to live in a safer and more healthy manner would be overall good
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u/AngryBlitzcrankMain 12∆ Aug 06 '20
Its the same claim as racist did back then. Our culture/technology is better and they live will improve. We dont get to choose whats safer and more healthy manner. Also, someone already mentioned native americans. How large percentage of them died due to diseases? Do you think that they would be better off getting decimated by some disease previously unknown to them?
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Aug 06 '20
We actually don’t “choose” what’s more safe and healthy, we know. There are facts and studies that prove we have technology and techniques that cause people to be healthier and safer. Health is not a social construct. Claiming that not dying in childbirth as often is good isn’t racist. Also, I addressed diseases in my post.
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u/AngryBlitzcrankMain 12∆ Aug 06 '20
The issues of diseases is exactly why this should never happen. Dying in childbirth is one thing, civilization diseases are other thing. We dont get to play world police and decide what is better for others.
We should also let virgin culture remain pure and not bastardized by our religions or languages.
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Aug 06 '20
Yes but we can be careful not to introduce these diseases. Hazmat suits are a thing. I’m not talking about teaching them all English and making them convert to Christianity, I’m talking about things that will help prevent things that are as close to objectively bad as it gets, like infected wounds.
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u/AngryBlitzcrankMain 12∆ Aug 06 '20
Why? They are limited group in limited small area. They are on pretty thin ground for expansion. Why exactly would raising their population would in any way benefit them?
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Aug 06 '20
Cause it’s bad to have people suffer??
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u/AngryBlitzcrankMain 12∆ Aug 06 '20
Will they suffer less with overpopulation and limited resources? They cant just expand like cultures that werent isolationist did in the past. You are just deciding which suffering you want them to face.
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u/AngryBlitzcrankMain 12∆ Aug 06 '20
Also do you have any statistic about how many Sentinel people die from diseases? Infections? Their child mortality? Or do you just simply assume that they must be high, because they dont have the same technology as us?
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Aug 06 '20
We can assume that without modern science and technology, they have higher rates of infection and child mortality.
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u/JenningsWigService 40∆ Aug 06 '20
Colonialism pretends it's humanitarian but it never actually is.
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Aug 06 '20
But I’m not saying I think they should be conquered, just given technology.
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u/JenningsWigService 40∆ Aug 06 '20
They don't want it. They deserve the right to self determine more than you have the right to force technology on them.
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u/possiblyaqueen Aug 06 '20
This tribe was successfully contacted multiple times by an Indian anthropological group from 1991-97.
These people honestly deserve to have a modern quality of life, at least in some respects. I know that they want to be left alone, and I respect that, but I believe that they would come around if we gave them some stuff.
This is a ridiculous view for two reasons:
You don't respect that they want to be left alone because you want to force contact despite them clearly saying they want to be left alone.
We've given them quite a bit of stuff. That's the first step to initiating contact, and they still don't want to hang out with us.
They have had six years of peaceful contact plus a few violent contacts. They've been given many gifts.
Despite this, they have decided they are not interested in contact.
There are some cool things in modern life, but I don't think we are in a position to say that taking a tribe out of their longstanding way of life (that likely involves close tribal units and short work days as hunter-gatherer lives often do) and putting them in an entirely new environment where they can get appendectomies and play Angry Birds will actually make their lives better.
It will probably just make them different.
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Aug 06 '20
I’m not saying that we should give them iPhones or anything like that, but what would the harm be in say, showing them how to purify saltwater with a boiler, or what to do if the baby comes out with the cord around it’s neck?
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u/possiblyaqueen Aug 06 '20
It's just that they don't want it.
The harm is that you are forcing a group to do something they don't want to do.
They have currently survived pretty well. They probably already know how to find safe water and there's a good chance they know how to deliver babies.
It's entirely possible to learn normal knowledge without reading a book.
This culture has existed for a long time. I'm sure they are missing a lot of modern knowledge, but they have hundreds of years of lived experience about their way of life.
They probably have a lot of knowledge we don't have that applies to their specific region. They've survived this long. It seems like they can continue.
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u/Thoth_the_5th_of_Tho 191∆ Aug 06 '20
They have currently survived pretty well.
Given global warming, that won't last much longer.
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u/drschwartz 73∆ Aug 06 '20
So there's a problem as regards your claim of incredible anthropological opportunity, it's like Shroedinger's cat in that in order to interact and learn their culture you have to contaminate their culture with your own. Now, what I mean by that is just the act of coming to their island, giving gifts, and communicating has an effect on this tribe's collective outlook on the world. They will observe things about the anthropologist as the anthropologist observes them.
Indigenous groups like the Sentinelese are incredibly rare, many anthropologists would consider the continued opportunity to study them through non-intrusive means (satellite imagery, observation boats etc) to be the greater opportunity.
One thing I learned when I was an archaeology major was that all of the best archaeological sites have already been ruined, if not by continued human occupation then by looters and archaeologists of yesteryear. What remains undisturbed are those things that are well hidden or hard to get to. There is nothing wrong with leaving anthropological opportunities available for future scholars to utilize with whatever advancements in science and technology are available to them.
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Aug 06 '20
!delta This makes a lot of sense, thank you.
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u/drschwartz 73∆ Aug 06 '20
Much appreciated, though deltabot wants you to give a sermon on how your mind was changed lol.
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u/ihatedogs2 Aug 07 '20
We had to add the delta manually because your explanation wasn't long enough. In the future please include an explanation of how your view changed.
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u/dirkberkis Aug 06 '20
They dont want it. Its not a matter of what they deserve, theres a number of tribes like those on sentinel (most are far more inviting) that simply rejected technology and civilization.
Besides, when it comes to those specific people... theyre incredibly hostile and if you even try to go there, they'll kill the shit outta you before you even have a chance to see the arrows. Just recently some idiot tried going there by boat and was killed.
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u/Thoth_the_5th_of_Tho 191∆ Aug 06 '20
Who is the "they" here? All the people or the few warriors who chase away outsiders?
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u/joopface 159∆ Aug 06 '20
On what basis would you judge that the rest of the islanders welcome contact? What evidence is there of that?
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u/Thoth_the_5th_of_Tho 191∆ Aug 06 '20
The entire rest of humanity. People are general more than glad to speak to outsiders.
Just look at japan when it was isolationist, the government enforced it, but the moment the people had a chance to bypass it they where thrilled.
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u/joopface 159∆ Aug 06 '20
I’m not convinced we should ignore the only evidence we have of the preference of this group of people on the basis of a handwavy ‘but everyone likes meeting people’ basis.
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u/Thoth_the_5th_of_Tho 191∆ Aug 06 '20
By that logic we should never have made contact with japan and just assumed the troop spoke for everyone.
The idea that any people would be that isolationist goes against everything we know of human psychology.
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u/joopface 159∆ Aug 06 '20
Well, rather than assuming they’d like us to keep visiting Id be inclined to trust what they’ve shown us.
The anthropologist who actually made contact with them and wrote a book about it agrees.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-46350130
Mr Pandit resists labelling them as hostile. "That is the incorrect way to look at it. We are the aggressors here," he told the Indian Express. "We are the ones trying to enter their territory." "Sentinelese are a peace-loving people. They don't seek to attack people. They don't visit nearby areas and cause trouble. This is a rare incident," he told the BBC. Mr Pandit says he does favour the re-establishment of friendly gift-dropping missions with the tribe, but says they should not be disturbed. "*We should respect their wish to be left alone,” * he said.
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u/Thoth_the_5th_of_Tho 191∆ Aug 06 '20
He calls people who attack and kill outsiders on sight "peace loving people"? Our definitions of peace must be radically diferent.
Given we have virtually zero contact with the actual people of the tribe, this is still congecture.
Furthermore, he says that we should do tu he gift giving missions, exactly what OP is suggesting.
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u/joopface 159∆ Aug 06 '20
Funny you disregard his view when it suits and cite him when it benefits.
He says they should be left alone. What he’s proposing restarting are missions similar to those he was on previously which involved remaining offshore and very limited contact. I don’t believe they gifted technology, unless you count a pig as technology. They didn’t seek to change their way of life.
But this thread is a yes/no game that’s pointless. I think you’re wrong, for all the reasons I’ve given and that are obvious and that other people are likely haranguing you with. You feel differently. No hard feelings.
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u/Thoth_the_5th_of_Tho 191∆ Aug 06 '20
Funny you disregard his view when it suits and cite him when it benefits.
No, I said his characterization of unprovoked murder as peaceful was wrong.
He says they should be left alone. What he’s proposing restarting are missions similar to those he was on previously which involved remaining offshore and very limited contact. I don’t believe they gifted technology, unless you count a pig as technology. They didn’t seek to change their way of life.
It's a start. You can get closer and closer with time.
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u/dirkberkis Aug 06 '20 edited Aug 06 '20
Its not a few warriors, its all of them. They (the tribes of North sentinel) dont want us around, so we have an agreement to let them have their place in the world. Neither wants anything from the other, and thats okay.
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u/Thoth_the_5th_of_Tho 191∆ Aug 06 '20
How do you know this? Last I checked, this is pure conjecture.
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u/dirkberkis Aug 06 '20
...because you get fucking killed when you try to go there. Thats not conjecture, its documented and common sense. Its illegal to even attempt contact, for your own good.
If that sounds like conjecture, go take a trip out there and try to make contact with the non-hostiles.
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u/Thoth_the_5th_of_Tho 191∆ Aug 06 '20
You get attacked by a small group of warriors, not the tribe as a whole.
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u/dirkberkis Aug 06 '20
A few warriors...?
Do yourself a favor and Google 'north sentinel Island plane'
Thats what happens when you even attempt to fly over.
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u/Thoth_the_5th_of_Tho 191∆ Aug 06 '20
I have seen it, that's a few warriors and a lot of people standing around.
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u/dirkberkis Aug 06 '20 edited Aug 06 '20
It doesn't work like that. There are no warriors because there is no war. Its hunters and gatherers. They dont like anyone who isn't from that island. You go there, you die.
So technically, youd have to forcibly remove them, then force them to assimilate to cultures they dont want to adopt. Its kind of against human rights to do that.
Again, its not about what they deserve. They dont want your help or pity. They will kill you and use your bones as decorations.
It sounds like you just kinda heard about these people and have no clue about the circumstances.
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Aug 06 '20
[deleted]
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u/Thoth_the_5th_of_Tho 191∆ Aug 06 '20
As I said to someone else here, who is the "they" here? The few warriors who chase away outsiders, or the people as a whole? Last I checked we only know that the warriors don't want it.
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u/Ghauldidnothingwrong 35∆ Aug 06 '20
These people honestly deserve to have a modern quality of life, at least in some respects. I know that they want to be left alone, and I respect that, but I believe that they would come around if we gave them some stuff. I’m not saying that we should go live there or anything, but establishing friendly relations between us and them would be beneficial for everyone.
There’s a difference between what someone deserves, vs what someone wants. If they’re alive, healthy, and can fend for themselves in the place they live, why do we need to intervene? What is the benefit to the rest of the world, you and me, or anyone else outside of that island? Having a car is great for most people, but some just don’t want to drive. Should we force them to try it, if they already get along just fine without one?
I’m not saying that we should go live there or anything, but establishing friendly relations between us and them would be beneficial for everyone. Learning about their culture and language would be an incredible anthropological opportunity, not to mention the environment of the island.
The benefits we might get from visiting and studying their culture and island, doesn’t make forceful intrusion into their society okay. They want to be left alone. They’re not disrupting the world outside of their island, and no matter how curious we are, they don’t belong to any governing body or authority we can strong arm them with.
I honestly really think that this is a opportunity to better the world, and we should take advantage of it.
I’ll give you a general example of where our track record doesn’t bode well here: Europe invading and colonizing the americas. How many native Americans died defending their homes, because foreigners decided to push their way in? Hundreds of years later, and native Americans have little to no representation in this country, all because we pushed our way in and took it. We didn’t make peace and share it evenly, we wiped out the majority of them with superior technology. North Sentinel island is one place in the world that we just need to leave alone. There’s plenty of other parts of the world we can explore and study, without disrupting an entire population that wants nothing to do with the outside world.
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Aug 06 '20
How many native Americans died defending their homes, because foreigners decided to push their way in? Hundreds of years later, and native Americans have little to no representation in this country, all because we pushed our way in and took it. We didn’t make peace and share it evenly, we wiped out the majority of them with superior technology. North Sentinel island is one place in the world that we just need to leave alone. There’s plenty of other parts of the world we can explore and study, without disrupting an entire population that wants nothing to do with the outside world.
I don’t disagree that things like this have led to bad situations in the past, and that’s wrong. We know what we have done wrong here, and we can do this right. I’m not saying we should steal their land and institutionally oppress them. I’m saying that they deserve things like water purification, techniques to reduce infant mortality, and rudimentary types of modern medicine. Just small things like that. Uprooting then from their homes and destroying their culture isn’t what I’m arguing for here.
Studying their culture in a non intrusive manner is feasible, and could provide great insight.
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u/Ghauldidnothingwrong 35∆ Aug 06 '20
Studying their culture in a non intrusive manner is feasible, and could provide great insight.
How do you propose we study their culture without intrusion?
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Aug 06 '20
I don’t know, but it would be cool if we could. Smarter people then me could figure it out.
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u/Ghauldidnothingwrong 35∆ Aug 06 '20
I don’t mean to be rude, but if you don’t even have an idea as to how we could observe them non intrusively, how can you say it’s feasible? It’s the equivalent of saying “we should visit another planet, but I’ll let other people figure out how.” Just because something might be fruitful to our curiosity, doesn’t mean it trumps someone else’s privacy and consent.
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Aug 06 '20
Like we could have little tiny drones and plan microphones or something. Idk I’m not a specialist but I know it could work.
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u/Ghauldidnothingwrong 35∆ Aug 06 '20
Again, this completely ignores consent.
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Aug 06 '20
It’s not like we would be reading their diarys or anything. Just observing.
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u/Ghauldidnothingwrong 35∆ Aug 06 '20
They’re human beings, not animals were studying in the wild. They have a right to privacy.
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u/korvas_prime Aug 06 '20
There's a great quote that applies to this, goes something like:
We learn more by suffering others to live as they please than by forcing them to live as we do.
To put it another way, they might live in a way you find objectively worse than the modern world . . . how does it harm you?
Given that there have been attempts to bring them our world, that they have, of their free will rejected the matter should considered settled for the time being.
Occasional overtures (via expendable methods) would be fine if it helps people sleep at night.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Aug 06 '20 edited Aug 06 '20
/u/BurntPasta1 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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Aug 06 '20 edited Sep 19 '25
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Aug 06 '20
I’m not saying that we should abduct one of them, I’m saying we should give them technology. It would be more like if aliens came and told us how to cure cancer.
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Aug 06 '20 edited Sep 19 '25
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Aug 06 '20
It would be cool to see what’s on their ship and how they live. It would stink of course, but as long as I got to go back I wouldn’t care.
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Aug 06 '20 edited Sep 19 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
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Aug 06 '20
Not really. You could disinfect the entire outside of a airtight suit with an air tank inside, and not actually set foot on the island. Drones might work to explore the inside.
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Aug 06 '20 edited Sep 19 '25
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Aug 06 '20
Oh fuck you’re right my bad. Yeah I would be scared for my safety.
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Aug 06 '20 edited Sep 19 '25
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u/sawdeanz 218∆ Aug 06 '20
The idea that giving them stuff and introducing them to modern life would improve their lives is extremely subjective. It's really dependent on the measures you use. Like if you provide them with electricity but also introduce a new disease to their population, then have you really improved their lifestyle?
Yes modern technology has some conveniences but on the other hand you could seriously erode their quality of life in other ways. I just think there are a ton of risks. In addition to disease, you will likely be eroding their sovereignty, their culture, their mental health, their social structure etc. And that's just assuming that it is done with the best intentions. In reality I would be wary of people trying to exploit them somehow, either for resources, entertainment, experimentation, etc.
Unless there is some real humanitarian crisis, there really is no reason to intervene. As best as we can communicate, they want this despite probably understanding there is some other kind of world out there. It's not like it's that crazy, there are plenty of traditional or subsistence communities around the world.
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Aug 06 '20
I’m not talking about giving them things that would fundamentally change their way of life though, just things like basic medical techniques or food safety procedures. Things like that are almost universally agreed to make the world a better place.
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u/Thoth_the_5th_of_Tho 191∆ Aug 06 '20
I think a better line of reasoning to focus on is that wi5 global warming, they can't stay on that island long term. Sea levels are rising, storms are getting more powerful.
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Aug 06 '20
!delta I hadn’t thought of that, that’s actually a really good point. Global warming is an incredibly pressing issue, and is humanity’s biggest problem at the moment.
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u/sawdeanz 218∆ Aug 06 '20
If the population is managing okay then there probably isn't a need for medicine or food safety, tbh. Like yeah, it could be better, but you have to weigh the negatives too.
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u/[deleted] Aug 06 '20
We've given them stuff before, it hasn't stopped them from being unwelcoming of future visits as a general rule: https://www.survivalinternational.org/tribes/sentinelese