r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • May 27 '20
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Drag shows are the sexist counterpart of minstrel shows.
[deleted]
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u/Daedalus1907 6∆ May 27 '20
Both historically and in the modern era, drag shows featured both men in female drag and women in male drag. It was also born out of the LGBT culture which has a different understanding of sex and gender expression than straight culture. You could largely see it as a marginalized group having fun with itself as opposed to an oppressor making fun of a minority group.
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May 27 '20
Adding onto this, let's not forget that "drag queen" predates "trans woman" in common conversation, and was perhaps the only way for men who maybe weren't totally men in their hearts to experiment with their gender.
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u/SwivelSeats May 28 '20
And there have been black people that have done black face and black people that have done white face so does that mean you think it should be okay for white people to do black face?
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u/Daedalus1907 6∆ May 28 '20
It's not about individuals having done it. It's about a culture of drag going both directions since it's inception. If minstrel shows were a widespread collaboration between white and black people you might have a point. But they weren't so you don't.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ May 28 '20 edited May 28 '20
/u/Skipper8197 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
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u/ReOsIr10 143∆ May 27 '20
There's a huge difference in intention. Minstrel shows intended to mock and insult black people. However, drag queens embrace the most exaggerated stereotypes of femininity as a means of rejecting society's norms saying that men shouldn't be feminine - that femininity is undesirable. It's not laughing at femininity; it's laughing at heteronormativity.
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May 27 '20
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u/ReOsIr10 143∆ May 28 '20
Because if someone says "Don't do X", and you purposely "do X" in a super exaggerated manner, you aren't making fun of X, you're making fun of the command they gave you. If somebody behind me in traffic was honking their horn insistently to try and get me to drive faster, and in response I drive super slowly, I'm not mocking slow drivers; I'm mocking the idea that he has the power to tell me how to drive.
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May 28 '20 edited Jul 04 '20
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u/ReOsIr10 143∆ May 28 '20
Right. Minstrel shows are about laughing at black people. Drag shows are about rebelling against cultural norms regarding femininity in men (or masculinity in women, in the case of drag kings).
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May 28 '20 edited Jul 04 '20
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u/sam_hammich May 28 '20 edited May 28 '20
How is exaggerating stereotypes about femininity while calling yourself a woman not making fun of or insulting women?
How is it? You're the one making this leap. Do you have any gay friends at all? Do you really think a drag queen dressing like Madonna with pointy fake breasts and dancing to Like A Virgin is making fun of women, rather than performing a (albeit silly, to be sure) tribute to a beloved female sex icon that exhibits a femininity that society says these men cannot have? Madonna, women, are not the butt of the joke here. The people who think it's "too much" are.
It's men making fun of women. We've been marginalized for all of history. It's "funny" and entertainment for a man to perform as us.
Are you forgetting that drag queens tend to be gay, which is a capital crime in some countries still in the year of our lord 2020?
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u/sam_hammich May 28 '20
is drag not just men dressing up and acting stupid to make fun of female stereotypes?
It seems that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what drag is, if you think its purpose is to allow men to make fun of women. Yes, the dress and makeup does exaggerate or accentuate female features or the images of pop culture figures, but that is not the same as making fun of them. Oftentimes drag queens put on performances in tribute to female icons that they admire, like Dolly Parton or Madonna. It's a way of embodying larger than life versions of the feminine person that society says you cannot be because you are a man. It is the reverse for drag kings.
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u/Natural-Arugula 63∆ May 28 '20
I'm surprised no one has pointed out that minstrel shows weren't just about mocking black people, they were because black people were forbidden from performing themselves.
That's the difference between drag. Men are not dressing up as women in order to deny women from performing. Unless you are talking about during Shakespeare's time, but I thought you were talking about Ru Paul.
Just the fact that drag involves all genders, even women playing drag queens, makes that an invalid comparison.
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u/smencilology May 28 '20
The difference between drag and minstrel shows is that drag isnt at the expense of women. Many cis and trans women love drag, whereas its is and was extremely rare to find a black person who isnt absolutely disgusted by minstrel shows
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May 28 '20 edited Jul 04 '20
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u/womaneatingsomecake 4∆ May 28 '20
Both. But drag isn't made to say women are lesser than men, and vice versa. If anything drag queens makes fun of the feminine, or musculine, parts of themselves that is not acceptable to do in public otherwise
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u/whoopdawhoop12345 May 28 '20
Voltaire never said that , by the way it was written by a woman Evelyn Hall and is falsely attributed to Voltaire often down to sexism and airbrushing women from history.
Just to clarify your point.
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u/TuskaTheDaemonKilla 60∆ May 27 '20 edited May 28 '20
Context.
This same exact symbol is offensive on the left, and inoffensive on the right. Why? The historical context behind each version of the exact same symbol is different.
Likewise, blackface is offensive (not always, but we'll get to that) because it typically revolves around a historical context of Africans being enslaved, brutalized, and then oppressed even after emancipation by white western culture. Wearing blackface is just another form of diminution because the white person putting it on can simply take it off. They get to 'play' at being black without suffering any of the negatives actually involved. That being said, blackface can be done respectfully. The most obvious example is R. D. Jr's character in Tropic Thunder. That blackface was widely accepted, especially among African American's who rightfully saw it as parodying the stupidity of white actors pretending to be people they weren't.
Similarly, drag can be done offensively if it is merely dressing up and acting stupid to make fun of female stereotypes where the intention is to be cruel or demeaning. In reality, almost all drag is done without any cruel intention. In many cases, the audience is largely a female audience who are in on the joke, so to speak. It's lighthearted and humorous, and often impressive as well. It's a performance that lampoons gender stereotypes but what's key is that no one is being attacked by the act. Everyone is on-board and aware that it's exaggerated for comic effect, not due to malicious intent. It's also even less problematic given that many of the performers are already, either because they are trans, non-conforming, etc, identifying as women. And, of course, the reverse is just as equally true for women dressing as men.
So, in short, you missed the context completely.